dimreepr Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 Are we better off having invented the printing press? I don't want to block the rabbit hole, so I'll leave it there for know and flesh thing's out as and when. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 47 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Are we better off having invented the printing press? Using which metric? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 3 minutes ago, iNow said: Using which metric? The start. It accelerated the value of the written word, over the spoken word; in essence it got us from worrying about what the next village was up too relevant to ours, to worrying about what the Mongolians are up to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVat Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 I've heard history buffs say that Luther and the Reformation wouldn't have happened without the invention of the printing press. (which wasn't solely about the written word - Luther also used woodcuts, to present simple stories to those less literate) I really can't think of anything that wasn't advanced by the press, given its role in dissemination of information and promoting knowledge. It eventually shifted literacy from a tiny elite to a majority of the population. Sure, it was double-edged - easier to spread propaganda and libel, too - but what technologies haven't had a double edge at some point? Societies that do well have information gatekeepers who filter out the lies, nonsense, sophistry, etc. The US Supreme Court just heard oral arguments yesterday on litigation over what such gatekeepers should do in social media companies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 While the written word didn't stop anyone from lying, it did make the lies easier to spot. The spoken word allows one to use all kinds of misdirection, as we see throughout history and especially with modern video. The written word allowed us to trust each other better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 13 minutes ago, TheVat said: I've heard history buffs say that Luther and the Reformation wouldn't have happened without the invention of the printing press. (which wasn't solely about the written word - Luther also used woodcuts, to present simple stories to those less literate) I really can't think of anything that wasn't advanced by the press, given its role in dissemination of information and promoting knowledge. It eventually shifted literacy from a tiny elite to a majority of the population. Sure, it was double-edged - easier to spread propaganda and libel, too - but what technologies haven't had a double edge at some point? Societies that do well have information gatekeepers who filter out the lies, nonsense, sophistry, etc. The US Supreme Court just heard oral arguments yesterday on litigation over what such gatekeepers should do in social media companies. Really? I think knowledge is far more likely to be properly understood, down the ages, using word of mouth; text traps meaning in the moment it's written... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVat Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 12 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Really? I think knowledge is far more likely to be properly understood, down the ages, using word of mouth; text traps meaning in the moment it's written... I am guessing you never played the telephone game in childhood. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geordief Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 40 minutes ago, TheVat said: I am guessing you never played the telephone game in childhood. My mother was a Morse coder in WW2.Why I could never trust what she said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exchemist Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 1 hour ago, TheVat said: I've heard history buffs say that Luther and the Reformation wouldn't have happened without the invention of the printing press. (which wasn't solely about the written word - Luther also used woodcuts, to present simple stories to those less literate) I really can't think of anything that wasn't advanced by the press, given its role in dissemination of information and promoting knowledge. It eventually shifted literacy from a tiny elite to a majority of the population. Sure, it was double-edged - easier to spread propaganda and libel, too - but what technologies haven't had a double edge at some point? Societies that do well have information gatekeepers who filter out the lies, nonsense, sophistry, etc. The US Supreme Court just heard oral arguments yesterday on litigation over what such gatekeepers should do in social media companies. Yes the printing of the bible in the vernacular was a significant milestone, democratising the process of reading and interpreting the bible - and thereby to some degree disempowering the clergy. The printing press democratised knowledge of all kinds, a process the internet is taking further today - with even fewer controls on quality. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 11 hours ago, Phi for All said: The spoken word allows one to use all kinds of misdirection, as we see throughout history and especially with modern video And this core challenge is being amplified by deepfakes which can now be created from a single 2D image and a recording of 3-5 words alone by any of us 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzkpfw Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Web forums are more dangerous than the printed word, I'd say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 (edited) 4 hours ago, iNow said: And this core challenge is being amplified by deepfakes which can now be created from a single 2D image and a recording of 3-5 words alone by any of us I recently rejoined FB and the manipulation of natural images, and presented as verbatim is truly pukable. Verbatim representations will increasingly become a very rare commodity. Edited March 20 by StringJunky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted March 20 Author Share Posted March 20 Well this is spooky, I came across this keynote speech by Will Self, today: Well worth a listen, he even point's to the type of metric I meant (far more eloquently) @iNow 9 hours ago, pzkpfw said: Web forums are more dangerous than the printed word, I'd say. They're the same thing, just amplified again. It's a shame this will be merged. We're very clever apes with a penchant for breaking boundaries and the written word has no more value than the spoken word, in advancing our understanding of the available knowledge. I dismiss the idea that printing democratised anything in any meaningful way, bc for democracy to be effective we're not all reading from the same hymn sheet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 23 minutes ago, dimreepr said: We're very clever apes with a penchant for breaking boundaries and the written word has no more value than the spoken word, in advancing our understanding of the available knowledge. Not clever enough to see the obvious value of preserving the actual words someone once spoke, apparently. Nor clever enough to see that the written word can be dispersed much more readily than passing them down orally, apparently. I think the written word is MUCH more valuable than the spoken word in many aspects. I can practically guarantee it will be the only way you and I communicate, whether that advances our understanding of our available knowledge or not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted March 20 Author Share Posted March 20 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Phi for All said: Not clever enough to see the obvious value of preserving the actual words someone once spoke, apparently. Nor clever enough to see that the written word can be dispersed much more readily than passing them down orally, apparently. Is it really that obvious? For instance, Socrates wasn't a fan. 10 minutes ago, Phi for All said: I think the written word is MUCH more valuable than the spoken word in many aspects. I can practically guarantee it will be the only way you and I communicate, Really, doesn't that dismiss causality, in a fundamental way? Edited March 20 by dimreepr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 46 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Is it really that obvious? What exactly did you say 10 years ago to your friend about that politician? I never heard it so I can't remember, but I'm sure you both remember exactly. OTOH, I have access to many things you wrote 10 years ago. So yeah, really obvious. 51 minutes ago, dimreepr said: For instance, Socrates wasn't a fan. I think he assumed writing his ideas down fixed them that way permanently, so he couldn't change his mind once he'd written it. Of course we now know, through scientific methodology, that it's possible to write down our best current explanations without cementing them in place. So perhaps Socrates was wrong about this. I assume you're grateful his students weren't so stupid. 57 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Really, doesn't that dismiss causality, in a fundamental way? Or rather it acknowledges that I probably won't ever talk to you face-to-face, again for obvious reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted March 20 Author Share Posted March 20 1 minute ago, Phi for All said: What exactly did you say 10 years ago to your friend about that politician? I never heard it so I can't remember, but I'm sure you both remember exactly. OTOH, I have access to many things you wrote 10 years ago. So yeah, really obvious. Does that mean you understood everything I wrote/said? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Just now, dimreepr said: Does that mean you understood everything I wrote/said? Absolutely not, but I don't think that's the fault of print. Do you think it would have been clearer to me if you'd spoken the same words to me? I think I'd have been equally baffled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted March 20 Author Share Posted March 20 More than everyting I said/wrote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 10 minutes ago, dimreepr said: More than everyting I said/wrote? Good example of things you say/write that baffle me. I have no idea what you mean by this. I'm sure it would be a good reply to a completely different post. Written down, I can assess stuff like this almost immediately. I assume you put some thought into writing you might not put into talking. I can't imagine having to spend the time physically listening to you say this and then taking more time to figure out what you mean by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted March 20 Author Share Posted March 20 4 minutes ago, Phi for All said: Good example of things you say/write that baffle me. I have no idea what you mean by this. Only that every coin has a flip side... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 "More than everyting I said/wrote?" = "Every coin has a flip side". Thanks for clarifying. I still don't know what you mean. Brevity may be the soul of wit, but it's often the tumor of understanding. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 2 hours ago, Phi for All said: "More than everyting I said/wrote?" = "Every coin has a flip side". Thanks for clarifying. I still don't know what you mean. Brevity may be the soul of wit, but it's often the tumor of understanding. One day he might twig on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 (edited) 19 hours ago, Phi for All said: "More than everyting I said/wrote?" = "Every coin has a flip side". Thanks for clarifying. I still don't know what you mean. Brevity may be the soul of wit, but it's often the tumor of understanding. That's my point, understanding a complicated concept is far more likely to be taught effectively through the spoken word, than the written version of knowledge, bc that version is always at least one generation out of date; and I think that might be the tumor of societies, since every empire in history has failed, for some reason. 16 hours ago, StringJunky said: One day he might twig on. My apologies for my lack of verbosity/eloquence, for some reason god didn't give me that gift...🙄 Edited March 21 by dimreepr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 19 minutes ago, dimreepr said: My apologies for my lack of verbosity/eloquence, for some reason god didn't give me that gift...🙄 Is it part of a managed persona to be constantly cryptic? It's a waste of life "conversing" with you, how you behave. Your behaviour is fucking irritating. This is the first and last time I'm saying this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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