TFG or That Florida Guy? Either way, can the GOP win in 2024?

[Steve81]

20 minutes ago, Genady said:

As in staying president after being democratically defeated.

That’s the ego / defensiveness factor at play. He can’t accept the rebuke implied by the vote.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Steve81

[Genady]

Just now, Steve81 said:

That’s the ego / defensiveness factor at play. He can’t accept the rebuke.

Does it make it a "good intension"?

[Steve81]

6 minutes ago, Genady said:

Does it make it a "good intension"?

That part, clearly not. Trying to figure out how to beat COVID or help with illegal immigration, yes. The man was just simply out of his depth, and the mockery combined with his ego didn’t let him see it, and turned him into what he became. He is ignorant, but thinks he’s a genius. That’s a rather dangerous combination.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Steve81

[Phi for All]

2 hours ago, Steve81 said:

My *non-professional* opinion is that Trump may well have good intentions and this comes through in his attempts to get the ball rolling on certain issues. He’s just severely misunderstood due to #1, and this causes him to be mocked, leading to #2. Not a good mix of characteristics for being POTUS, but he may not be the devil incarnate either.

I think you're too forgiving of the corruption in his past. Did he suddenly turn over a new leaf when he decided to run as a conservative Republican after being a lifelong liberal Democrat? There may be some spillover from his actions that benefit a few, and that's why many of the wealthy supported him (nobody had ever given them such big tax breaks). 

"May well have good intentions"? I offer up 91 felony charges as evidence against that sentiment. He also ticks all 14 boxes on the test for being a fascist, and when did they ever have good intentions for anyone but themselves? Trump is NOT misunderstood, he's a criminal, plain and simple, and the biggest shame is that criminals can still be elected in the US (he just won't be able to vote for himself).

[Steve81]

31 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I think you're too forgiving of the corruption in his past. Did he suddenly turn over a new leaf when he decided to run as a conservative Republican after being a lifelong liberal Democrat? There may be some spillover from his actions that benefit a few, and that's why many of the wealthy supported him (nobody had ever given them such big tax breaks). 

"May well have good intentions"? I offer up 91 felony charges as evidence against that sentiment. He also ticks all 14 boxes on the test for being a fascist, and when did they ever have good intentions for anyone but themselves? Trump is NOT misunderstood, he's a criminal, plain and simple, and the biggest shame is that criminals can still be elected in the US (he just won't be able to vote for himself).

It’s more an observation of how he became to be a criminal, FWIW. I do try to give people the benefit of the doubt. We’re all human, with all the attendant foibles. I think underneath that psychopathic appearing exterior is just another person. I don’t pretend to know what he’s lived through; I can only observe what I see. That’s why psychology is so difficult.

 

Honestly, I think it would be fascinating to have a deep conversation with the man.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Steve81

[Phi for All]

3 minutes ago, Steve81 said:

I don’t pretend to know what he’s lived through; I can only observe what I see.

Most of what he's lived through has been part of the public record, him being a celebrity from a fairly early age and all. The part that's been observable for decades has been corrupt, uncaring, prejudiced, insensitive, criminal, incompetent, and self-serving. Jeffrey Epstein introduced Trump to underage girls. This is the president who said, after fumbling the COVID-19 response so badly, "I don't take responsibility at all!" 

We can only observe what we choose to see.

[Steve81]

12 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Most of what he's lived through has been part of the public record, him being a celebrity from a fairly early age and all. The part that's been observable for decades has been corrupt, uncaring, prejudiced, insensitive, criminal, incompetent, and self-serving. Jeffrey Epstein introduced Trump to underage girls. This is the president who said, after fumbling the COVID-19 response so badly, "I don't take responsibility at all!" 

We can only observe what we choose to see.

I’m talking about the private aspects of his life that he hasn’t shared. Most aren’t born psychopaths (though he may have been); they’re usually a product of their environment.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Steve81

[Phi for All]

5 minutes ago, Steve81 said:

I’m talking about the private aspects of his life that he hasn’t shared. Most aren’t born psychopaths (though he may have been); they’re usually a product of their environment.

Oh, sorry. The public aspects of his character are just so damning that I find it hard to believe anything private isn't actually much worse, rather than it being possibly redeeming or show that his intentions are good. Perhaps that's just me.

[Steve81]

6 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Oh, sorry. The public aspects of his character are just so damning that I find it hard to believe anything private isn't actually much worse, rather than it being possibly redeeming or show that his intentions are good. Perhaps that's just me.

No worries! All I can say about that is I can somewhat understand how the Uvalde shooter came to be. I lived under similar circumstances to what has been reported. One can only imagine what wasn’t stated to drive him to do what he did.

[Phi for All]

8 minutes ago, Steve81 said:

No worries! All I can say about that is I can somewhat understand how the Uvalde shooter came to be. I lived under similar circumstances to what has been reported. One can only imagine what wasn’t stated to drive him to do what he did.

I don't think the Uvalde shooter and TFG can be compared meaningfully. Do you really think they're at all alike? Or is this a red herring?

Do you think being wealthy somehow means you can't be too bad? Is it tragic to be born wealthy, run sure-fired businesses into the ground that your dad gave you the money for, and discriminate against minorities? Was TFG being misunderstood when he refused to pay all those people who did good work for him? Did society force him to insult, lie, bully, lie, cheat, lie, steal, and ultimately throw democracy under the bus?

Do you think his suffering calls for compassion for what he's been put through? Do you think TFG started out as a good person who was driven to be the way he is? Is losing an election enough of a justification to stage a mass-shooting against our voting system? 

Are you arguing that the GOP can win in 2024 with Trump?

[Steve81]

18 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I don't think the Uvalde shooter and TFG can be compared meaningfully. Do you really think they're at all alike? Or is this a red herring?

Do you think being wealthy somehow means you can't be too bad? Is it tragic to be born wealthy, run sure-fired businesses into the ground that your dad gave you the money for, and discriminate against minorities? Was TFG being misunderstood when he refused to pay all those people who did good work for him? Did society force him to insult, lie, bully, lie, cheat, lie, steal, and ultimately throw democracy under the bus?

Do you think his suffering calls for compassion for what he's been put through? Do you think TFG started out as a good person who was driven to be the way he is? Is losing an election enough of a justification to stage a mass-shooting against our voting system? 

Are you arguing that the GOP can win in 2024 with Trump?

I’m making the comparison only as a worst case scenario of what massively traumatic abuse can do to a human. Wealth has nothing to do with it. My parents were reasonably wealthy; that didn’t make my mom a good person at all. 
 

I think understanding suffering that a person has been through helps understand why they make the decisions they do. It doesn’t justify their actions, but I still have compassion, mostly because I’ve made horrendous decisions in my own life.

Can the GOP win with Trump, I have no idea. That depends on a great many factors, some of which can’t be readily controlled.

[mistermack]

Donald Trump will be arrested tomorrow. 

They just mentioned on the BBC that there's a place on the form for his height and weight, which they thought he might be a bit touchy about. I wonder if they have to include the hair piece in those measurements? That would be brilliant. 

[Airbrush]

19 hours ago, Steve81 said:

My *non-professional* opinion is that Trump may well have good intentions, and this comes through in his attempts to get the ball rolling on certain issues. He’s just severely misunderstood due to #1, [Impulse control & communication: he spouts off half baked, oftentimes offensive things] and this causes him to be mocked, leading to #2. [Defensiveness and grudge holding] Not a good mix of characteristics for being POTUS, but he may not be the devil incarnate either.

 

Al Capone and Jeffrey Dahmer may have had "good intentions."

Being "the devil incarnate" is not the point.  Trump, as a master-manipulator, with 14 years of experience as a TV star, identified a voter base, but ran for president as a publicity stunt, just an item on his bucket list of self-service.  He was not expecting to win in 2016.  In 2020 he was only 44,000 votes away from tying Biden.  In 2024 he is running (running from the law) as a last resort to avoid criminal accountability.  If he wins he goes free.  If he loses he may lose his freedom.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Airbrush

[Steve81]

3 hours ago, Airbrush said:

 

Al Capone and Jeffrey Dahmer may have had "good intentions."

Being "the devil incarnate" is not the point.  Trump, as a master-manipulator, with 14 years of experience as a TV star, identified a voter base, but ran for president as a publicity stunt, just an item on his bucket list of self-service.  He was not expecting to win in 2016.  In 2020 he was only 44,000 votes away from tying Biden.  In 2024 he is running (running from the law) as a last resort to avoid criminal accountability.  If he wins he goes free.  If he loses he may lose his freedom.

Like I said, just an observation and resulting explanation, not a justification for Trump’s behavior. If he fits behind bars for the rest of his life, so much the better. 

[mistermack]

7 hours ago, Airbrush said:

If he wins he goes free.

Not necessarily. He could pardon himself for federal convictions, but not for state crimes. I believe the charges in Georgia are state crimes, and so are the ones in New York. So  even if he's President, he's still got to hope he beats the rap.

[TheVat]

Odd how the power of the Cult seems to overcome what would normally be an aversion to cowardice.  Especially among the blue collar portion of TFG's base.  Trumpers I encounter would not usually be the sort to be okay with someone backing away from the debate arena (and instead retreating to the safe space of a Tucker Carlson interview during the Milwaukee debate).  I can remember a time when prairie republicans out here would have found that repugnant.

But now they lap up his weak sauce of debates don't matter, big waste of time, and I'm so far ahead.  

[mistermack]

7 minutes ago, TheVat said:

But now they lap up his weak sauce of debates don't matter, big waste of time, and I'm so far ahead.  

From his point of view, he's right. There's nothing for him to win, and plenty to lose, in joining that debate. No matter how confident he was, it would be silly for him to roll the dice. And right now, they have plenty they can throw at him, so it's a no-brainer to skip it. Some will criticise, but others will view it as a sign of confidence, and a lot of his supporters will be impressed that he didn't feel the need to bother with it. 

[Airbrush]

On 8/24/2023 at 6:10 AM, mistermack said:

Not necessarily. He could pardon himself for federal convictions, but not for state crimes. I believe the charges in Georgia are state crimes, and so are the ones in New York. So  even if he's President, he's still got to hope he beats the rap.

A hung jury is very likely in GA, given the dedication of the MAGA cult members.  They will crawl on their hands and knees, over a mile of broken beer bottles, to hear his Zingers.  At least one will crawl onto the jury.

[mistermack]

7 hours ago, Airbrush said:

A hung jury is very likely in GA,

Yes, it only takes one. I read somewhere that the jury that chose to indict him had one juror who consistently voted against at every opportunity, and it only got passed because they could take a majority at that stage, whereas in a full trial, it needs to be unanimous. 

Luckily, the election can be won on a majority. Not of voters though, that would be too simple for the "home of democracy". 

Here in the UK, they try for a unanimous verdict, but if it gets bogged down like that, the judge can instruct them that he will take a majority verdict. Usually 11 to 1 or 10 to 2. 

Whether that's better or not, who can say? Life is a constant series of compromises in the real world. 

[Airbrush]

On 9/10/2023 at 4:49 AM, mistermack said:

Yes, it only takes one. I read somewhere that the jury that chose to indict him had one juror who consistently voted against at every opportunity, and it only got passed because they could take a majority at that stage, whereas in a full trial, it needs to be unanimous. 

Luckily, the election can be won on a majority. Not of voters though, that would be too simple for the "home of democracy". 

Here in the UK, they try for a unanimous verdict, but if it gets bogged down like that, the judge can instruct them that he will take a majority verdict. Usually 11 to 1 or 10 to 2. 

Whether that's better or not, who can say? Life is a constant series of compromises in the real world. 

Good observations!

On the brighter side, in Georgia it appears that 2 Trump conspirators want an early trial.  It will be televised with witnesses and evidence against ALL conspirators, especially the ring-leader, Trump.  Then the facts may finally be known.  Then maybe enough independents and Nevertrumpers will face reality and go out to VOTE.

[J.C.MacSwell]

Nikki Haley seems to be decent, composed, and not just reasonable but forthcoming with explaining her stances on issues.

Not sure if she can overtake Trump but she certainly should, and if so is more likely than Trump to beat Biden, IMO.

 

[iNow]

8 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Nikki Haley seems to be decent, composed, and not just reasonable but forthcoming with explaining her stances on issues.

Not sure if she can overtake Trump but she certainly should, and if so is more likely than Trump to beat Biden, IMO.

 

Capable and smart, but cynical and lacking in consistent principles. She’s a very skilled political operator who moves her position swiftly to align with the polls, but even dead leaves can go with the flow. We need leaders who shape it, not just get carried by it. 

At 40-60 points behind, she only stands a chance if Trump is somehow subtracted from the equation, and even then Trump voters are far more likely to flow to DeSantis. 

[TheVat]

For that three minute period when Nikki was explaining why America should send troops into Mexico, I was able to view Trump as slightly less insane.  

Then the moment passed and I went back to hoping Trump wins the nomination and makes Biden's job much easier.  Trump is his own best Democratic political attack ad.   

[J.C.MacSwell]

2 hours ago, TheVat said:

For that three minute period when Nikki was explaining why America should send troops into Mexico, I was able to view Trump as slightly less insane.  

Then the moment passed and I went back to hoping Trump wins the nomination and makes Biden's job much easier.  Trump is his own best Democratic political attack ad.   

I will certainly admit that's a pretty questionable position, especially for someone who is supposed to be strong on foreign policy.

 

3 hours ago, iNow said:

Capable and smart, but cynical and lacking in consistent principles. She’s a very skilled political operator who moves her position swiftly to align with the polls, but even dead leaves can go with the flow. We need leaders who shape it, not just get carried by it. 

At 40-60 points behind, she only stands a chance if Trump is somehow subtracted from the equation, and even then Trump voters are far more likely to flow to DeSantis. 

Desantis is behind by just as much and has lost ground to her to the point it's fairly even. If she gets clear ahead and he fades he might not be around or at most on life support at the subtraction point...if there is one.

Of course Inow, you do know you have to vote for her if it comes down to her and Biden...she is after all a women, and Biden is an old white guy...😀

[iNow]

7 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Desantis is behind by just as much and has lost ground to her to the point it's fairly even

But my point is that’s bc Trump remains in the race. Haley is not who they’ll flow toward if he’s removed. DeSantis is. 

7 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

Of course Inow, you do know you have to vote for her if it comes down to her and Biden...she is after all a women, and Biden is an old white guy..

I don’t vote based on looks or skin color or who they happen to love. I vote based on who I think is the best candidate / against the candidate who is anathema to the values and principles that matter most to me. 

I do think she and Liz Cheney together on a ticket would be VERY hard to beat in the general election, even though they’d never make it out of the GOP primary. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by iNow