Free will and the Matrix

[Trurl]

I was watching a lecture on the philosophy of science fiction and there was a debate on the movie The Matrix. All about how the trilogy is a debate on free will.

If God knows are character and presents us with a decision and knows our response, did we have a choice? And if we didn’t have a choice who is to blame?

I want to pose the question: If we don’t have free will how can anything new be created? And if there was no free will how could you prove something is new?

For scientists and engineers they don’t think in philosophy. They are makers. I believe in free will. I don’t see the point of things being predetermined. Of course me not liking a predetermined system does not mean it doesn’t exist.

[Bufofrog]

22 minutes ago, Trurl said:

I want to pose the question: If we don’t have free will how can anything new be created? And if there was no free will how could you prove something is new?

Well, it seems like we have free will so that's good enough for me.

[Trurl]

You must be a scientist. Always striving to discover something new. I too am aligned with the free will side. But there is also compelling arguments for predetermined side. Look at you phone constantly monitoring and influencing you. The question to ask is who controls such events? Is it random? Who would be a separate observer to intentionally influence others?

And all these multiverses would not be possible if we had no choice. Now my question is how would we even know determined or fixed. We have a first person perspective and are oblivious to how it works.

I just like the discussion. I think I am in control of my decisions, but if you watch the lecture you  may doubt the certainty of fee will. But like you free will is good enough for me. I shouldn’t have let that lecture influence me.

[Kittenpuncher]

If you are conscience, then you already know, that your actions are your own doing

You're assuming that you understand a thing like "knowing everything" and perfection/omniscience, but wouldn't you also point out that the ideas seem contradictory to you? Saying what you've said, you act like you understand it, whereas on other occasions, wouldn't you realize that you don't?

You don't even realize that there are actually answers to questions like this. Society has you fooled. There are chapters of the Holy Bible where the people would challenge Jesus with questions like this, which they thought were impossible to answer, and in at least one they were trying to castrate him while doing it, because they were sure there was no logical way that the question should be answered. He would amaze them!

And I wondered, quiet a few times, when people would do this sort of thing to Jesus, "what in the hell would you even do, if he couldn't answer that question? Go on a bloodbath killing spree?" And I think they probably would. Maybe they didn't realize how close they came to destroying any semblance of not just faith, but any sort of morality or grip on themselves that they had, in an attempt to prove Jesus wrong about anything at all

This is practically the same sort of question, or close. The godlessness of the people today is not a good thing, and everyone takes it far too lightly, even with people asking these sorts of questions that would easily give birth to a violent, blood-strewn grudge against the only thing that ever taught people how to be righteous and live happily, we need God because he is the one that would tell you not to do the horrible things that many would take your logic and try to blame God for, he is the one that puts a stop to the suffering and agony that comes from the wicked, and it is him who taught people to forgive

People don't realize the gravity of evil that used to go on, when God was punishing and enslaving his people. It's ironic that people point to him doing that and tell people how evil or wrong and sick it was. They're hiding his justifications for doing so, and they are relying on you being completely ignorant about practically the entire old testament and new testament, to turn you into a blind hater of the one thing that is always worthy of love, feeding on your naive arrogance where you haven't considered that you probably won't live past 100 years old, and that everything that surrounds us here is a bunch of stuff that's completely new to humankind, meanwhile, you trash what all of our ancestors believed in and lived happily because of since time began, like that has no meaning to you, and like nobody has ever seen or answered these questions before

What I'm saying, basically, is how it's ironic to point the finger at God for what you decided to do on your own, even though he is always trying to get people to turn from sin, and be wise, happy, and content

Without him, our eyes would be cooked in their sockets, the wind would carry prickly blood dust from the decimation, and nobody would have ever known good beyond attaining the wisdom to just end all life on Earth, because of the pain that life would be

[Trurl]

Calvinism vs Arminianism

[Trurl]

I’m going to ruin the Matrix Trilogy like Amy ruined Indy Jones for Sheldon on the Big Bang Theory. She ask why Indy stopped the Germans will they opened up the Arc and died anyway.

 

So why did the machines in the Matrix use humans for batteries when they have the ability to reach the atmosphere and space. In the first movie Morpheus says we scorched the sky. ( A attempt to eliminate solar power?) But in the 3rd movie Neo and Trinity fly above the scorched sky.

 

So if machines don’t need us for batteries, why not destroy humans and we go to all the trouble of a simulated world?

 

I think the machines didn’t want to destroy their creators, the humans. Maybe the simulated world is to prevent wars between machines and humans? Maybe it means the human mind is superior to the machines? Maybe the machines are wondering if they have a soul? Maybe the machines know the human body is a machine and there should be similarities between machines and humans?

 

But why do machines fight for the Earth when they can inhabit all of space? And who governs the machines? Do the machines have free will?

[swansont]

16 hours ago, Trurl said:

So why did the machines in the Matrix use humans for batteries

Because it sounded good to the writers, and that overruled any science objections that might have popped up. IOW, they wanted to keep the dialog where they call Neo “copper-top”  And they needed a reason for the machines keeping humans around, because without them there’s no movie. And perhaps other plot-driven reasons.

It’s a work of fiction.

[Moontanman]

5 hours ago, Trurl said:

I’m going to ruin the Matrix Trilogy like Amy ruined Indy Jones for Sheldon on the Big Bang Theory. She ask why Indy stopped the Germans will they opened up the Arc and died anyway.

 

So why did the machines in the Matrix use humans for batteries when they have the ability to reach the atmosphere and space. In the first movie Morpheus says we scorched the sky. ( A attempt to eliminate solar power?) But in the 3rd movie Neo and Trinity fly above the scorched sky.

 

So if machines don’t need us for batteries, why not destroy humans and we go to all the trouble of a simulated world?

 

I think the machines didn’t want to destroy their creators, the humans. Maybe the simulated world is to prevent wars between machines and humans? Maybe it means the human mind is superior to the machines? Maybe the machines are wondering if they have a soul? Maybe the machines know the human body is a machine and there should be similarities between machines and humans?

 

But why do machines fight for the Earth when they can inhabit all of space? And who governs the machines? Do the machines have free will?

 I have been told that the story was going to say the human brains were being used as part of the matrix AI's artificial brain then the changed it to being a battery. It is after all science fiction and in this case not particularly good science fiction... or at least not a very good premise.   

[Trurl]

On 4/16/2023 at 7:47 PM, Moontanman said:

 I have been told that the story was going to say the human brains were being used as part of the matrix AI's artificial brain then the changed it to being a battery. It is after all science fiction and in this case not particularly good science fiction... or at least not a very good premise.   

Well that would mean that the human brain was still significant. After all the machines were created and taught by humans.

But what would be the distinction of humans and machines?

And would machines be as distinct in personality as humans?

And would machines be as destructive as humans?

Remember the Matrix was designed to create peace. Recall when Agent Smith said that the Matrix was originally a utopian world. The effort of the Matrix's design for peace is flawed. Obviously, the machines don't know how to achieve a perfect world.

[swansont]

11 hours ago, Trurl said:

Remember the Matrix was designed to create peace. Recall when Agent Smith said that the Matrix was originally a utopian world. The effort of the Matrix's design for peace is flawed. Obviously, the machines don't know how to achieve a perfect world.

The Matrix was designed so that the machines could exploit the humans. “Utopia didn’t work” was a comment of the flaws of humanity as perceived by the machines. Humanity’s diversity and the existence of emotion and irrationality. No such thing as perfection, because no matter what situation you create, some fraction of the people will be unsatisfied. Probably related to the evolutionary background of having to struggle/compete to survive, and removing that caused issues.

[dimreepr]

11 hours ago, Trurl said:

Well that would mean that the human brain was still significant. After all the machines were created and taught by humans.

But what would be the distinction of humans and machines?

And would machines be as distinct in personality as humans?

And would machines be as destructive as humans?

Remember the Matrix was designed to create peace. Recall when Agent Smith said that the Matrix was originally a utopian world. The effort of the Matrix's design for peace is flawed. Obviously, the machines don't know how to achieve a perfect world.

Sound's like the sort of publication that given time, could become a bible to schism over.

[Sensei]

10 hours ago, Trurl said:

Obviously, the machines don't know how to achieve a perfect world.

..so do humans..

 

[Bufofrog]

13 hours ago, Trurl said:

Remember the Matrix was designed to create peace.

It was created as a power supply for the machines.  I'm not sure why the machines didn't just use cows or pigs instead of humans.  There would be a much lower chance of  cows revolting against the machines.  Just saying...

Edited November 5, 2023 by Bufofrog

[swansont]

2 hours ago, Bufofrog said:

It was created as a power supply for the machines.  I'm not sure why the machines didn't just use cows or pigs instead of humans.  There would be a much lower chance of  cows revolting against the machines.  Just saying...

The machines had fusion power, so the role of the humans isn’t really adequately explained. But it’s also fiction, so…

[Sensei]

..the whole story behind the movie "Matrix" does not make any sense.. 'humans created clouds to cover the whole world to prevent A.I. from taking sunlight, so they were placed in "carnisters" to produce electricity for A.I'.. This is what I remember from "The Matrix Part #1"....

The creators created things on the fly, without giving much thought to whether it would even come together into any larger story (as is the case when there is an adaptation of a book by a writer who has been writing it for many years, and has thought through every page of the script).

The second and third parts are tacked on to the first, which was a spectacular and unexpected success. So the creators must have added some explanation of something they didn't think too much about when writing the original.
 

This is a video in which they mention that man is a battery, a source of electricity (bizarre!):

(which is nonsense, because a 4-year-old would find a better source of electricity)

When you live in a simulation, the creators (aka "superadmins", as someone said about me in the religious section), can do whatever want..

i.e., change "the script" and change someone's life (in hell, heaven or whatever)..

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Sensei