dimreepr

Shamima Begum

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https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1089558/Shamima-Begum-ISIS-Islamic-State-pregnant-Shamima-Begum-UK-citizenship-revoked

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She fled to Syria in 2015, accompanied by two of her friends from a secondary school in Bethnal Green. Once there, they were married off to ISIS fighters, and since then Begum has made a number of chilling comments including justifying the horrific Manchester bombings in 2017.

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"I'm a 19-year-old girl with a newborn baby."I don't have any weapons; I don't want to hurt anyone even if I did have weapons.

 
 
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has had her citizenship revoked

Seems harsh.

 

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10 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Seems harsh.

And lacking due process. And almost certainly not legal.

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She threw in her chips and lost. No ethics needed, she can take a hike.

Edited by StringJunky

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There is a lot of hatred on social media about her. Mainly from the brexit types.  I can understand the resentment. Legally I presume we should have taken her back then prosecuted her, but, meh, whatever  -  you make your bed you lie in it. She might actually be safer out there than back here anyway. There are right wingers seething with hatred towards her - I have no inclination to argue her defence. She left the country to join a terrorist group that is openly at war with us   -  why should we care about her now?

 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

She threw in her chips and lost. No ethics needed, she can take a hike.

That may be OK when the state is taking action against someone you disagree with. But what if you find yourself opposed to the government of the day and they start deporting, locking up or even executing people who oppose them. Would you still think it is OK for there to be no due process?

The whole point of having legal processes, an independent judiciary and human rights legislation is that it protects everyone, not just the people that you agree with.

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would you say the same about your daughter?

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cross posting

 

Edited by dimreepr

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9 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

would you say the same about your daughter?

 

I knew you'd pull that one... so predictable. Yes. She must experience the full weight of her actions.

31 minutes ago, DrP said:

There is a lot of hatred on social media about her. Mainly from the brexit types.  I can understand the resentment. Legally I presume we should have taken her back then prosecuted her, but, meh, whatever  -  you make your bed you lie in it. She might actually be safer out there than back here anyway. There are right wingers seething with hatred towards her - I have no inclination to argue her defence. She left the country to join a terrorist group that is openly at war with us   -  why should we care about her now?

 

 

 

Precisely. If IS were on top, she'd still be with them and condoning their monstrous ideology.

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1 minute ago, StringJunky said:

I knew you'd pull that one... so predictable.

 

 

what teenager hasn't made a mistake?

9 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Yes. She must experience the full weight of her actions.

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Just now, dimreepr said:

what teenager hasn't made a mistake?

Bollocks. She subscribes (present tense) to a belief that that is totally antithetical to what we hold as fair and just. What she has uttered is no way that of a person who sees the error of their ways. Her team lost, she wants to defect back.

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1 minute ago, dimreepr said:

Yep but why not here?

It's not so simple taking a radicalized person back, is it?

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2 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

It's not so simple taking a radicalized person back, is it?

so a life sentence for an opinion? 

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There does seem to be a point many liberals miss about such news topics related to the rise of populist movements, and seem constantly surprised when people vote for 'stupid' things.

I can understand the push towards progressing society, but there is a very real risk that pushing too hard will actually regress society: I cite Trump and Brexit as examples.

Populism shouldn't dictate legal issues, but that's beside the point. Due process is being followed, i understand; the government have declared their intent and the courts will decide the legality of this situation. 

The court of social media, however, is what forms people's opinions. We should consider the large swathes of people who feel their views are being constantly ignored and so turn to increasingly extreme politics in an attempt to rectify the situation. We'll end up with Farage in charge if this continues unabated.

 

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26 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

what teenager hasn't made a mistake?

Yes. Some teenage boys rape girls. 

What teenager hasn't made a mistake?

 

Whether you consider it a mistake or not, you should live with the consequences of your actions. That's called responsibility.

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4 minutes ago, Prometheus said:

There does seem to be a point many liberals miss about such news topics related to the rise of populist movements, and seem constantly surprised when people vote for 'stupid' things.

1

not surprised, disappointed.

7 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

Yes. Some teenage boys rape girls. 

What teenager hasn't made a mistake?

 

Whether you consider it a mistake or not, you should live with the consequences of your actions. That's called responsibility.

"Do you know my son, with what little understanding the world is ruled?"

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27 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

so a life sentence for an opinion? 

Don't trivialize it.

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1 minute ago, StringJunky said:

Don't trivialize it.

That's an opinion...

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43 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

It's not so simple taking a radicalized person back, is it?

It is not simple but the Home Office has already spent a lot of time thinking about exactly this sort of problem and has policy documents in place. They provide an example that is almost exactly this one and the recommenced action is:

  • Manage their return to UK
  • Carry out criminal investigation - and, obviously, follow up with prosecution, etc. if appropriate
  • Undertake deradicalisation
  • Ensure the child is cared for

One of the contributors to this document was Sajid Javid, so I can only assume he is taking his own "radical" action as part of a leadership campaign.

Document here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/716907/140618_CCS207_CCS0218929798-1_CONTEST_3.0_WEB.pdf 

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48 minutes ago, StringJunky said:
1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

would you say the same about your daughter?

I knew you'd pull that one... so predictable. Yes. She must experience the full weight of her actions.

And of course, if you're suspected of being complicit in your daughter's actions, you'd be happy to have your own citizenship, like hers, revoked based on secret evidence. You must experience the full weight of your suspected actions.

Or not?

2 minutes ago, StringJunky said:
31 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

so a life sentence for an opinion? 

Don't trivialize it.

Is life as a stateless person trivial?

Do you really think any country would grant her citizenship?

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OK - I cringed at every joke on FB regarding the poor girl - they were all in pretty bad taste imo...  although - I found this vid funny:

https://www.facebook.com/MoanersUK/videos/378751456037536/

 

6 minutes ago, Strange said:

Undertake deradicalisation

is that even possible? how could you be sure she isn't going to be a sleeper waiting for something in particular.  Although I feel as a human she should get a trial...  I am not too bothered if we don't see her again being honest - I'm more concerned about the brexit brigade using it as an excuse to normalise their racist agenda's though making jokes about it on FB tbh. :-(

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12 minutes ago, Carrock said:

Is life as a stateless person trivial?

 

He was referring to what she did.

 

She didn't simply make an opinion. She acted upon that opinion and supported a declared enemy of the United Kingdom. That is treason. 

16 minutes ago, Carrock said:

And of course, if you're suspected of being complicit in your daughter's actions, you'd be happy to have your own citizenship, like hers, revoked based on secret evidence. You must experience the full weight of your suspected actions.

 

Except this is a red herring.

Because this is not the case.

 

The evidence is not secret, her parent's citizenship is not being revoked, and it's not suspected actions. It's real actions.

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12 minutes ago, Carrock said:

 

And of course, if you're suspected of being complicit in your daughter's actions, you'd be happy to have your own citizenship, like hers, revoked based on secret evidence. You must experience the full weight of your suspected actions.

Or not?

Is life as a stateless person trivial?

Do you really think any country would grant her citizenship?

Absolutely, that makes it worse.

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Is life as a stateless person trivial?

Do you really think any country would grant her citizenship?

I meant "trivializing" when he called it an opinion... it's a bit more than that. The connotations of "opinion" are nowhere near the mark.

She can be Dutch or Bangledeshi, so, nowhere near stateless.

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4 minutes ago, DrP said:

Although I feel as a human she should get a trial.

And she will. It's already in the process. 

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2 minutes ago, DrP said:

is that even possible?

Yes.

2 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

She didn't simply make an opinion. She acted upon that opinion and supported a declared enemy of the United Kingdom. That is treason. 

I don't think the UK has a very meaningful treason law. I can't remember (and can't be bothered to check!) but I think it is just about attempts to insult the king, or something equally silly.

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4 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

He was referring to what she did.

 

She didn't simply make an opinion. She acted upon that opinion and supported a declared enemy of the United Kingdom. That is treason. 

evoked, and it's not suspected actions. It's real actions.

Absolutely. 

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