Thorham Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) Veganism is a nice gesture, but it is not much more than that. It's about mentality. About the mentality that exploitation is wrong. Not eating meat isn't going to save the world, but changing one's mentality might. Edited June 28, 2017 by Thorham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tub Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 It's about mentality. About the mentality that exploitation is wrong. Not eating meat isn't going to save the world, but changing one's mentality might. Yes,that would definitely help.Perhaps adopting/adapting some of the principles of Jainism would assist too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 It's about mentality. About the mentality that exploitation is wrong. Not eating meat isn't going to save the world, but changing one's mentality might. Sure. Like being a foster parent, or social worker, or raising your own chickens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernArtist25 Posted June 28, 2017 Author Share Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) On the other hand I am focusing on people instead of cows, so there's that. Unless you are willing to exit this world, you are likely doing it more harm than good. Veganism is a nice gesture, but it is not much more than that. It is not reasonable to tell someone to kill themselves, if everyone reduce meat consumption or be on vegan diet, it is better for the planet. Nobody should think that just because they are only making a small impact that they shouldn't make any impact at all. When you reduce your meat consumption, you are not doing it just for the cows but for also the world and the future generation: http://science.time.com/2013/12/16/the-triple-whopper-environmental-impact-of-global-meat-production/ https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/20/chinas-meat-consumption-climate-change https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2016/05/27/china-is-encouraging-its-citizens-to-eat-less-meat-and-that-could-be-a-big-win-for-the-climate/ Edited June 28, 2017 by ModernArtist25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 It is not reasonable to tell someone to kill themselves, if everyone reduce meat consumption or be on vegan diet, it is better for the planet.It is not reasonable to tell someone to quit eating meat. If everyone killed themselves it is better for the planet. Nobody should think that just because they are only making a small impact that they shouldn't make any impact at all.No, but they shouldn't think it is a big impact either. Let's keep it honest. When you reduce your meat consumption, you are not doing it just for the cows but for also the world and the future generation:When you choose to help people instead of cows, it is not just for the people but also for the world and future generations. But helping people is better than helping cows. I really don't care what, if any, gesture people make toward making the world a better place. What I don't like is someone telling me that their way is better than my way, especially when they still eat meat on occasion because it tastes good, or because the meat they eat had a marginally better life. Seems hypocritical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 It's about what WE do, not about what happens in the wild. Remember that we're the ones who cared enough to differentiate between civilization and "the wild". It's what we do instead of chasing down our prey and eating them alive. That's what they do in "the wild", but we came up with something more civilized. I understand why you have to make it a moral judgement, but you're forgetting the moral judgement we've already made, that we'll treat domesticated animals with as much decency as we can in exchange for their support of our civilization, and the plentiful food and safety from constant predation it brings. Because other species can't go to the supermarket and buy whatever the hell they want like many of us. If predators don't hunt, they die, while I don't have to. It's about choice. And yes, I realize full well that there are still many people who don't have a choice, and I'm not talking about them. Forget about people without access to supermarkets (although it's wrong to not talk about them but still use this argument). What you're doing is taking the the most important trait humans selected for, intelligence, and saying we have to stop using it in this instance. We can't catch prey in our claws, our teeth and jaws aren't designed to grip and hold, we don't have fur or venom or flight. We almost didn't make it as a species, but eventually our brains caught up with us and we figured out how to make up for most of what we lacked. Our intelligence let's you question the validity of these practices as well, and make no mistake, questioning them is a big part of vigilance in making sure humane practices are followed. You simply don't make anything more than emotional arguments, and I would need a rational reason to change my diet so radically. I'm NOT vegan. I've said this before. Anyway, it was you who said you're happy with the way the animals whose meat you buy are treated, so you're happy with them being butchered. You've chosen to invest the word butcher with horror and guilt-ridden, perverse implications that animal husbandry is suddenly no longer the brilliant idea it was to begin with, and that any killing of animals is suddenly wrong. When I use the word butcher, it's after the respect for the animal has been demonstrated, and its life has been taken humanely. When I use the word butcher, it's with regard to the person who feels the same way I do about being grateful to domesticated animals who share the safety and prosperity of our civilization and give their lives as pets, or as food, or as fiber farms, or as beasts of burden, or as guardians of our families. As for rational reasons, there aren't any. It's all purely emotional, just like there's no rational reason to not kill a human and take their money, for example. The reason I don't want to hurt others is because of empathy, which is completely emotional. I can't believe you don't think there are rational reasons not to kill a human, or to take their money without permission. This basically says to me, "The minute my empathy for you wavers, you're a dead man, and I'll be richer." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 It is not reasonable to tell someone to kill themselves, if everyone reduce meat consumption or be on vegan diet, it is better for the planet. Nobody should think that just because they are only making a small impact that they shouldn't make any impact at all. When you reduce your meat consumption, you are not doing it just for the cows but for also the world and the future generation: http://science.time.com/2013/12/16/the-triple-whopper-environmental-impact-of-global-meat-production/ https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/20/chinas-meat-consumption-climate-change https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2016/05/27/china-is-encouraging-its-citizens-to-eat-less-meat-and-that-could-be-a-big-win-for-the-climate/ Do you think it's reasonable to preach about something you don't understand? The cat's won't thank you but they might just eat you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorham Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 To Phi for All: I'm completely done with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 To Phi for All: I'm completely done with this. +1/an apology, is the normal/intelligent method of conceding an argument in this forum; fuck off, 'it's my ball' is the 'facebook' way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 I read again Phi's post to make sure I didn't miss anything. I am unsure what prompted the end of Thorham's participation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 I read again Phi's post to make sure I didn't miss anything. I am unsure what prompted the end of Thorham's participation. I choose to believe he's done with emotional appeals against eating meat, and also wants to change the way he looks at murder. In my delusion, critical thinking triumphed against guilt and fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorham Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) Edited June 28, 2017 by Thorham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorham Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 I can't believe you don't think there are rational reasons not to kill a human, or to take their money without permission. This basically says to me, "The minute my empathy for you wavers, you're a dead man, and I'll be richer." Actually, I have one last thing to say about all of this. If you think anything other than empathy matters in relation to things like this, then you're wrong and you're overthinking it. Empathy drives people to do good and to better themselves: If it's bad for me, it's bad for someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 Actually, I have one last thing to say about all of this. If you think anything other than empathy matters in relation to things like this, then you're wrong and you're overthinking it. Empathy drives people to do good and to better themselves: If it's bad for me, it's bad for someone else. You're missing the point, empathy is an emotional response, much like vengeance; if you can't forgive you'll never understand why it's needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorham Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 (edited) You're missing the point, empathy is an emotional response, much like vengeance; if you can't forgive you'll never understand why it's needed. Could you clarify that? Edited June 30, 2017 by Thorham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 Could you clarify that? Which part? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorham Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 Which part? Could you re-phrase what you said? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 I'll try: Empathy is the ability to understand an others emotional response to certain stimuli, much like revenge is an emotional response to certain stimuli. Forgiveness is understanding why it's emotional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 Actually, I have one last thing to say about all of this. If you think anything other than empathy matters in relation to things like this, then you're wrong and you're overthinking it. Empathy drives people to do good and to better themselves: If it's bad for me, it's bad for someone else. Overthinking it?! I'm thinking killing and robbing you would have major repercussions for me, and change my life for the worse. Even if I could justify the act to myself somehow, I would be still be forever changed by it. I lose sleep over far less. If I'd killed you before you could blow up a bus full of school kids, I know I'd still have nightmares about it as long as I lived. If I couldn't justify it to myself, how do I escape the law? This really isn't an emotional or empathetic matter, it's a matter of wanting freedom to do as I please over incarceration with a bunch of felons. If you're only afraid of doing something that might land you in jail instead of reasoning that crime is wrong, doesn't that mean you might do something illegal if you thought you wouldn't get caught? If you suddenly feel more empathetic against me than for me, or a stronger emotion grabs hold of you, should my family be prepared to carry on without me? I disagree that the whole don't-eat-animals thing is about empathy. And it isn't about over-thinking either, it's about under-thinking and over-emoting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 Actually, I have one last thing to say about all of this. If you think anything other than empathy matters in relation to things like this, then you're wrong and you're overthinking it. Empathy drives people to do good and to better themselves: If it's bad for me, it's bad for someone else. So anyone who lacks empathy should go out and murder and loot because there is no other reason for them not to do it? If your premise is that empathy should be enough on its own, then sure. I'll agree with that. That doesn't mean it's the only thing that matters at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernArtist25 Posted June 30, 2017 Author Share Posted June 30, 2017 At the end of the day, it's all about compassion. That's what the vegan lifestyle is really all about. Compassion for all sentient beings and minimizing harm as much as one can possibly can. And everyone has their own standards when it comes to compassion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 At the end of the day, it's all about compassion. That's what the vegan lifestyle is really all about. Compassion for all sentient beings and minimizing harm as much as one can possibly can. And everyone has their own standards when it comes to compassion. It's the kind of misplaced compassion that makes you feel better but makes life difficult for a bunch of others. There are plenty of examples these days. I've been behind drivers who actually stopped in the middle of the street to let another car enter traffic from a side street. They think they're being compassionate by saving one other driver a wait, ignoring that they're making the twenty cars behind them wait instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koti Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 (edited) Answering a post from a few posts back about breastfeeding a baby for the first 6 months without the need to provide it with any outside food or nutrients, even water - which is true but in the context of veganism where would the mother receive her protein for the breast milk to contain it? My wife was begging for us to get a steak or a quality beef burger while she was breast feeding our son. Ive seen wives of my friends behave the same and frankly, it is the stratosphere of hypocrisy twhen I see people using their iphones, riding their beemers and shouting they are saving the world from hunger and being compassionate by eating vegan. If it makes you feel better, do it, why not...but don't fool yourself youre helping in any way. Modernartist, I'd love to see how you manage to support yourself on a farm for a year with no "grocery store" available and being forced to work your way through every aspect of your survival. If you'd hold up on vegan food alone - kudos to you. I would imagine the following year they would need to drive you to a hospital for malnutrition treatment, if you'd survive that is. Edited June 30, 2017 by koti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernArtist25 Posted June 30, 2017 Author Share Posted June 30, 2017 If you'd hold up on vegan food alone - kudos to you. I would imagine the following year they would need to drive you to a hospital for malnutrition treatment, if you'd survive that is. I guess you haven't met enough vegans in your life. I knew people who were vegans for years, even decades and they look younger and more fit than most people their age. They said it is the best thing they have ever done. When it comes to any diet, you gotta plan it, otherwise you will either suffer from obesity, diabetes, or malnutrition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koti Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 I guess you haven't met enough vegans in your life. I knew people who were vegans for years, even decades and they look younger and more fit than most people their age. They said it is the best thing they have ever done. When it comes to any diet, you gotta plan it, otherwise you will either suffer from obesity, diabetes, or malnutrition. I certainly havent met a single simple farm person who is vegan or any poor african vegan person. And I don't think I ever will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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