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What happens to consciousness?

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I was wondering what happens to your consciousness when you go to sleep? Does it it cease to exist or does your brain enter a stage in which it still exists but your your senses don't pick up anything?

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I was wondering what happens to your consciousness when you go to sleep? Does it it cease to exist or does your brain enter a stage in which it still exists but your your senses don't pick up anything?

 

To answer your question, first we have to make sure we both agree on some basic definition of consciousness. Basically, consciousness is merely awareness of experience and evidence of that awareness as suggested by perceived behavior. Second, we should agree that consciousness is a product of brain activity and function; therefore, consciousness can exist so long as there is evidence of brain activity and function. However, not all brain activity produces evidence of consciousness. There are stages in sleep that produce little to no evidence that the sleeper is aware of experience, physical or otherwise. Evidence of awareness in sleep is primarily suggested by the stages of sleep wherein rapid eye movement (REM) occurs. REM is usually coupled with the experience of dreaming, which is an alter state of wakeful activity in brain function. During REM, some brain areas can and frequently do reach levels of activity that exceed our conscious or wakeful levels. Those wakeful levels and our recall of dreams combine to suggest a consciousness or awareness in sleep, primarily during sleep's REM stages. The short answer to your question is that consciousness still exist in sleep because consciousness is a product of brain activity and that activity doesn't stop even in sleep. The truest evidence of consciousness nonexistence occurs at brain death when minimal to no brain activity is detected.

 

Regarding sensory "pick up" or detection in sleep, their is experimental evidence that suggest our brain is able to detect sensory stimuli through all phases of sleeps.

Edited by DrmDoc

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The truest evidence of consciousness nonexistence occurs at brain death when minimal to no brain activity is detected.

 

 

Consciousness in that brain is nonexistent.

But there is plenty of evidence of Consciousness in other brains after someone dies.

May I ask, do you believe reincarnation is impossible or possible?

 

EDITED since new members only get 5 posts.

 

Ok, so you made the statement "The truest evidence of consciousness nonexistence occurs at brain death when minimal to no brain activity is detected. "

That has equal value to the statement

"There is evidence of consciousness in other brains."

 

Essentially, what I am trying to say is you are being silly.

 

Your method to determine the "nonexistence of consciousness in brains" is that you see zero electrical activity in their brains, and thus say it is reasonable to say there is no consciousness in those brains. (So far, you are right. It is reasonable to say there is probably not any consciousness in those brains.)

 

But when you start to trip up, is when you say that using the almost exact same methodology (seeing electrical activity in brains, and saying there is probably consciousness in those brains) is unreasonable. (Hint, it is not unreasonable to say that electrical activity indicates a high probability of consciousness in brains.)

 

Essentially what you are doing is using the solipsism argument when it is convenient, this isn't really interesting for scientific debate. It's a bit like having a philosophic discussion, and someone jumping in and saying "The flying spaghetti monster is real, and you can't prove it otherwise because he lives in another galaxy."

I mean...sure the spaghetti monster could be real, sure solipism could be real, but get real.

 

Furthermore, I also know that consciousness is in my brain...and there is a correlation to electrical activity and the amount of consciousness in my brain...and sure we could throw out all correlations out the window...saying others might not have consciousness even though they have the same electrical configurations...we could say that it was one giant conspiracy and our scientific instruments were part of some Grand Cosmos's conspiracy to deceive our very eyes, and that we can't say consciousness was really in our brains, since our brains were possibly an illusion made by Barney the Purple Dinosaur's Pinky toe... and all scientists and scientific journals were also holograms and all scientific data could be fake...Or, that everytime we do a logic, our memory is altered and half of we believe is actually false.

Could happen. But not really conducive to getting anywhere in a discussion.

 

I haven't received or reviewed any credible evidence, from legitimate scientific sources and investigations, suggesting its possibility; therefore, no, I do not believe reincarnation is possible.

 

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There is also nothing to suggest that such a thing would be impossible. We already know spontaneous birth and entrance of consciousness is possible. So there is nothing to suggest that further spontaneous births and entrances of consciousness are impossible.

Actually, in order for reincarnation to not happen, an infinite amount of time would have to occur where there is zero probability of consciousness ever becoming conscious of anything again, which seems very far fetched when you realize that none of us actually ever gave consent to be here - we just spontaneously existed. So it seems rather silly to believe that a series of utterly powerless individuals would suddenly have the inherent, unconscious ability to prevent any such spontaneous existences from happening in the future.

 

I mean...sure if I jump off the Grand Canyon, a UFO from another galaxy detects I am an important being and teleports to me right the moment before I fall off, saving me... or sure, after 5 billion more years in the Cosmos, Spontaneous Consciousness never happens again...ok.

 

In Eastern/Asian philosophy, believing you that don't reincarnate is like having a religious superstition...

The whole goal of Buddhism is to learn how to NOT reincarnate...because reincarnation just seems like an apparent brutal fact of nature, like death and gravity. The idea that Buddha had the power to force himself to not reincarnate is the crux of the fairy tale.

Edited by quickquestion

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But there is plenty of evidence of Consciousness in other brains after someone dies.

 

 

Really? You have empirical evidence in science of "Consciousness in other brains after someone dies"? I invite you to post that evidence here, I'm very interested in reviewing it.

 

May I ask, do you believe reincarnation is impossible or possible?

 

 

I haven't received or reviewed any credible evidence, from legitimate scientific sources and investigations, suggesting its possibility; therefore, no, I do not believe reincarnation is possible.

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Ok, so you made the statement "The truest evidence of consciousness nonexistence occurs at brain death when minimal to no brain activity is detected. "

That has equal value to the statement

"There is evidence of consciousness in other brains."

 

Essentially, what I am trying to say is you are being silly.

 

Your method to determine the "nonexistence of consciousness in brains" is that you see zero electrical activity in their brains, and thus say it is reasonable to say there is no consciousness in those brains. (So far, you are right. It is reasonable to say there is probably not any consciousness in those brains.)

 

But when you start to trip up, is when you say that using the almost exact same methodology (seeing electrical activity in brains, and saying there is probably consciousness in those brains) is unreasonable. (Hint, it is not unreasonable to say that electrical activity indicates a high probability of consciousness in brains.)

 

Essentially what you are doing is using the solipsism argument when it is convenient, this isn't really interesting for scientific debate. It's a bit like having a philosophic discussion, and someone jumping in and saying "The flying spaghetti monster is real, and you can't prove it otherwise because he lives in another galaxy."

I mean...sure the spaghetti monster could be real, sure solipism could be real, but get real.

 

Furthermore, I also know that consciousness is in my brain...and there is a correlation to electrical activity and the amount of consciousness in my brain...and sure we could throw out all correlations out the window...saying others might not have consciousness even though they have the same electrical configurations...we could say that it was one giant conspiracy and our scientific instruments were part of some Grand Cosmos's conspiracy to deceive our very eyes, and that we can't say consciousness was really in our brains, since our brains were possibly an illusion made by Barney the Purple Dinosaur's Pinky toe... and all scientists and scientific journals were also holograms and all scientific data could be fake...Or, that everytime we do a logic, our memory is altered and half of we believe is actually false.

Could happen. But not really conducive to getting anywhere in a discussion.

 

 

 

I'm not sure what position you're conveying here regarding brain death but if we are talking about evidence in science, a brain that is dead cannot and does not produce evidence of consciousness by any standard of medical science. Consciousness does not exist in brain death when there is no measurable or observable evidence in either overt behavior or through appropriate medical testing.

 

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There is also nothing to suggest that such a thing would be impossible. We already know spontaneous birth and entrance of consciousness is possible. So there is nothing to suggest that further spontaneous births and entrances of consciousness are impossible.

Actually, in order for reincarnation to not happen, an infinite amount of time would have to occur where there is zero probability of consciousness ever becoming conscious of anything again, which seems very far fetched when you realize that none of us actually ever gave consent to be here - we just spontaneously existed. So it seems rather silly to believe that a series of utterly powerless individuals would suddenly have the inherent, unconscious ability to prevent any such spontaneous existences from happening in the future.

I mean...sure if I jump off the Grand Canyon, a UFO from another galaxy detects I am an important being and teleports to me right the moment before I fall off, saving me... or sure, after 5 billion more years in the Cosmos, Spontaneous Consciousness never happens again...ok.

 

In Eastern/Asian philosophy, believing you that don't reincarnate is like having a religious superstition...

The whole goal of Buddhism is to learn how to NOT reincarnate...because reincarnation just seems like an apparent brutal fact of nature, like death and gravity. The idea that Buddha had the power to force himself to not reincarnate is the crux of the fairy tale.

 

 

 

Although reincarnation is a cornerstone of religious faith for millions of devotees around the world, faith is insufficient evidence of its possibility. I'm familiar with the idea and have read and reviewed accounts purported as evidence. None of that evidence was from sources most would consider legitimate science. If you have such evidence, in legitimate science, I invite you to post that evidence or a link here. As I said, I'd be very interested in reviewing it.

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To answer your question, first we have to make sure we both agree on some basic definition of consciousness. Basically, consciousness is merely awareness of experience and evidence of that awareness as suggested by perceived behavior. Second, we should agree that consciousness is a product of brain activity and function; therefore, consciousness can exist so long as there is evidence of brain activity and function. However, not all brain activity produces evidence of consciousness. There are stages in sleep that produce little to no evidence that the sleeper is aware of experience, physical or otherwise. Evidence of awareness in sleep is primarily suggested by the stages of sleep wherein rapid eye movement (REM) occurs. REM is usually coupled with the experience of dreaming, which is an alter state of wakeful activity in brain function. During REM, some brain areas can and frequently do reach levels of activity that exceed our conscious or wakeful levels. Those wakeful levels and our recall of dreams combine to suggest a consciousness or awareness in sleep, primarily during sleep's REM stages. The short answer to your question is that consciousness still exist in sleep because consciousness is a product of brain activity and that activity doesn't stop even in sleep. The truest evidence of consciousness nonexistence occurs at brain death when minimal to no brain activity is detected.

 

Regarding sensory "pick up" or detection in sleep, their is experimental evidence that suggest our brain is able to detect sensory stimuli through all phases of sleeps.

 

So do you believe we are our awareness and when it fades away during sleep, that we die?

Really? You have empirical evidence in science of "Consciousness in other brains after someone dies"? I invite you to post that evidence here, I'm very interested in reviewing it.

 

 

 

I haven't received or reviewed any credible evidence, from legitimate scientific sources and investigations, suggesting its possibility; therefore, no, I do not believe reincarnation is possible.

 

To answer your question, first we have to make sure we both agree on some basic definition of consciousness. Basically, consciousness is merely awareness of experience and evidence of that awareness as suggested by perceived behavior. Second, we should agree that consciousness is a product of brain activity and function; therefore, consciousness can exist so long as there is evidence of brain activity and function. However, not all brain activity produces evidence of consciousness. There are stages in sleep that produce little to no evidence that the sleeper is aware of experience, physical or otherwise. Evidence of awareness in sleep is primarily suggested by the stages of sleep wherein rapid eye movement (REM) occurs. REM is usually coupled with the experience of dreaming, which is an alter state of wakeful activity in brain function. During REM, some brain areas can and frequently do reach levels of activity that exceed our conscious or wakeful levels. Those wakeful levels and our recall of dreams combine to suggest a consciousness or awareness in sleep, primarily during sleep's REM stages. The short answer to your question is that consciousness still exist in sleep because consciousness is a product of brain activity and that activity doesn't stop even in sleep. The truest evidence of consciousness nonexistence occurs at brain death when minimal to no brain activity is detected.

 

Regarding sensory "pick up" or detection in sleep, their is experimental evidence that suggest our brain is able to detect sensory stimuli through all phases of sleeps.

 

What do you think about http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-1049286

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So do you believe we are our awareness and when it fades away during sleep, that we die?

 

I believe we are, individually, a collective of the knowledge and insight we've amassed through life experience. What we've learned, our experiences, and the memories we hold influence who we are and how we express that quality. Although we may not be consciously aware during sleep, that lack of awareness doesn't suggest we die when we sleep. Regardless of what some of us may believe, true death occurs when our brain activity stops. Sleep isn't brain death and brain activity doesn't stop when we sleep.

 

What do you think about http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-1049286

 

 

Well, two quotes from that link:

 

Many argue that what separates humans from non-human animals is our consciousness. This consciousness mainly resides in the neural activity within our pre-frontal cortex, the region of our brain just behind our forehead and above our eyes. When activity in this region ceases we are not conscious even though other areas of our brain are still actively monitoring and controlling basic life functions.

 

The idea that consciousness resides in the prefrontal cortex is false, which is proved by patients who have received and survived leucotomy. Leucotomy--procedurally reduced and renamed lobotomy--is a psychosurgery procedure that separates the prefrontal cortex from the rest of the brain, effectively, rendering the prefrontal cortex inactive. Although leucotomy alters certain behavioral expressions and qualities, it doesn't render patients brain dead or without awareness when performed correctly. Consciousness involves a confluence of brain activity that is not entirely dependent on prefrontal function. An inactive prefrontal merely changes the quality of consciousness expression rather than cause its cessation.

 

So how does this relate to death? As a biologist who teaches neuroscience (note: I am not a formally-trained neuroscientist), it appears to me that if the conscious areas of the brain are shut off, even temporarily, we cease to exist.

 

 

These initial paragraphs set the tone for the rest of the article. A teacher can have knowledge of neuroscience without being a neuroscientist; however, in this case, this teacher appears to have erred in his understanding of brain function, which renders the basis for his article without sufficient support in generally accepted science. There's considerably more to the nature of sleep and the nature of consciousness in sleep than some of us may have actually studied. That study should, if I may suggest, begin with a clear perspective of brain evolution--as should all functional investigations of the brain should begin, in my opinion.

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I believe we are, individually, a collective of the knowledge and insight we've amassed through life experience. What we've learned, our experiences, and the memories we hold influence who we are and how we express that quality. Although we may not be consciously aware during sleep, that lack of awareness doesn't suggest we die when we sleep. Regardless of what some of us may believe, true death occurs when our brain activity stops. Sleep isn't brain death and brain activity doesn't stop when we sleep.

 

 

Well, two quotes from that link:

 

 

The idea that consciousness resides in the prefrontal cortex is false, which is proved by patients who have received and survived leucotomy. Leucotomy--procedurally reduced and renamed lobotomy--is a psychosurgery procedure that separates the prefrontal cortex from the rest of the brain, effectively, rendering the prefrontal cortex inactive. Although leucotomy alters certain behavioral expressions and qualities, it doesn't render patients brain dead or without awareness when performed correctly. Consciousness involves a confluence of brain activity that is not entirely dependent on prefrontal function. An inactive prefrontal merely changes the quality of consciousness expression rather than cause its cessation.

 

 

These initial paragraphs set the tone for the rest of the article. A teacher can have knowledge of neuroscience without being a neuroscientist; however, in this case, this teacher appears to have erred in his understanding of brain function, which renders the basis for his article without sufficient support in generally accepted science. There's considerably more to the nature of sleep and the nature of consciousness in sleep than some of us may have actually studied. That study should, if I may suggest, begin with a clear perspective of brain evolution--as should all functional investigations of the brain should begin, in my opinion.

You know a lot, do you have a degree in science?

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You know a lot, do you have a degree in science?

 

My degree is in business, which I used to manage a medical center from many years until my retirement in 2004. However, my primary interests have always involved science. Credentials aside, you should always further investigate and independently verify the answers you receive in forums like this because the anonymity of these forums virtually assures the unreliability of many of the responses your queries receive. I hope this helps.

Edited by DrmDoc

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My degree is in business, which I used to manage a medical center from many years until my retirement in 2004. However, my primary interests have always involved science. Credentials aside, you should always further investigate and independently verify the answers you receive in forums like this because the anonymity of these forums virtually assures the unreliability of many of the responses your queries receive. I hope this helps.

Now this I agree. I don't think people should be judged by their credentials, but whether or not what they are saying is logically solid.

 

 

 

I'm not sure what position you're conveying here regarding brain death but if we are talking about evidence in science, a brain that is dead cannot and does not produce evidence of consciousness by any standard of medical science. Consciousness does not exist in brain death when there is no measurable or observable evidence in either overt behavior or through appropriate medical testing.

I made my position regarding brain death clear and if you were not sure what my position on it was, that shows me you are not taking the time to read my writings in depth and are missing some things and probably missing out on vital concepts of what I am saying. Probably because, you just want to read fast and quickly so you can teach me your position of how you view things afterwards (probably because it makes you feel like a historian/librarian/encyclopedia brown/teacher kind of feeling.)

 

The idea that consciousness resides in the prefrontal cortex is false, which is proved by patients who have received and survived leucotomy. Leucotomy--procedurally reduced and renamed lobotomy--is a psychosurgery procedure that separates the prefrontal cortex from the rest of the brain, effectively, rendering the prefrontal cortex inactive. Although leucotomy alters certain behavioral expressions and qualities, it doesn't render patients brain dead or without awareness when performed correctly. Consciousness involves a confluence of brain activity that is not entirely dependent on prefrontal function. An inactive prefrontal merely changes the quality of consciousness expression rather than cause its cessation.

 

Doesn't this paragraph contradict your earlier logic when you said I was wrong for saying "We know consciousness is in other brains"? I mean, you are now litterally saying we can know consciousness is in other brains.

 

 

So in that spirit I am going to contradict myself, and say we actually don't know consciousness is in leucotomy patients. Unless you yourself have had a leucotomy, you don't actually know for certain it's affect on consciousness.

And thus it brings me to my next point - consciousness discussions are never certainties, they are mostly based on gut instinct. When we talk with other people, we use our gut instincts and assume there is an "us" inside of them a being and not a pzombie. But we can never be sure. And this is the crux of consciousness discussions.

Since the crux of consciousness discussions is about what feels reasonable, you can't just say say "Oh give me empirical evidence" over and over. How am I supposed to give you emperical evidence that someone else is not a pzombie? How am I supposed to empirically prove that someone is sentient and has awareness and consciousness? Constantly demanding for empirical evidence is absurd and ridiculous. We don't use empirical evidence, we just use our "gut" and say, my gut tells me solipsism is not real and other people are beings with feelings just like me.

 

That being said, there IS one kind of empirical evidence that people refuse to explore regarding consciousness. Hospitals around the world REFUSE to put a paper-code above the bunk-bed of dying patients (Most of them don't even have bunk-beds, but all that is needed is perhaps a Food table above their eye-level.) THIS would be empirical evidence that we can leave our bodies, if they can leave their bodies during an NDE and correctly report the paper code (or mystery object) above eye level.

 

Of course...noone will do this, because the world is ran by mostly just a bunch of idiots. Of all the billions of people in the world, of the few that can OBE on command, not one will setup anything scientific for me. I even go to hippie circles and I tell them..."Can we set up a science experiment and do this right" and they just ghost me and refuse to set up anything scientifically. I guarantee if I go to a hospital and instruct them how to set it up scientifically, they will just blow me off, give me the runaround and not setup anything in a scientific manner. I would want to prove, once and for all, whether or not OBE's are real. But noone want's to know. And it's obvious why they don't want to know.

 

 

I believe we are, individually, a collective of the knowledge and insight we've amassed through life experience. What we've learned, our experiences, and the memories we hold influence who we are and how we express that quality. Although we may not be consciously aware during sleep, that lack of awareness doesn't suggest we die when we sleep. Regardless of what some of us may believe, true death occurs when our brain activity stops. Sleep isn't brain death and brain activity doesn't stop when we sleep.

 

 

What you are describing is personality and ego. Not the core "us". When a cat yells at me and beckons me to open the door...that is the real "us". That animal awareness.

And of course our personality dies with the brain. But I'm not 100% sure of that, it could be retained maybe, who knows. In any case, you seem to be conflating personality with "ou"/"us", and it's damping the discussion.

Personality != Consciousness.

Edited by quickquestion

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Now this I agree. I don't think people should be judged by their credentials, but whether or not what they are saying is logically solid.

This is the general modus operandi of this forum. It is quite rare to see the regular people here, who are well-qualified in their area, to argue from authority.

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I made my position regarding brain death clear and if you were not sure what my position on it was, that shows me you are not taking the time to read my writings in depth and are missing some things and probably missing out on vital concepts of what I am saying. Probably because, you just want to read fast and quickly so you can teach me your position of how you view things afterwards (probably because it makes you feel like a historian/librarian/encyclopedia brown/teacher kind of feeling.)

 

I do not presume to know your mind or reasoning and I think it wise that you don't presume to know mine. I was unsure of your position because your rambling and convoluted reply style made your position tediously difficult from me to follow and comprehend.

 

Doesn't this paragraph contradict your earlier logic when you said I was wrong for saying "We know consciousness is in other brains"? I mean, you are now litterally saying we can know consciousness is in other brains.

 

 

No, I didn't say you were wrong, I asked for "legitimate evidence in science" supporting that statement because it inferred the idea of consciousness perpetuation or transference after brain death. That inference is further suggested by your subsequent "reincarnation" query. Also, no, my comments do not contradict any of my previous replies. Consciousness--if we both share the same understanding of the term--is determined by very specific means and tests relative to brain function and behavior. Indeed, we are able to assess whether conscious awareness exist in any brain by way of these means and tests.

 

So in that spirit I am going to contradict myself, and say we actually don't know consciousness is in leucotomy patients. Unless you yourself have had a leucotomy, you don't actually know for certain it's affect on consciousness.

And thus it brings me to my next point - consciousness discussions are never certainties, they are mostly based on gut instinct. When we talk with other people, we use our gut instincts and assume there is an "us" inside of them a being and not a pzombie. But we can never be sure. And this is the crux of consciousness discussions.

 

 

I'm going to contradict you as well by saying neuroscience isn't an existential matter in that we are fully capable of medically assessing whether a leucotomy patient or any person possesses awareness. The empirical equivalency in human brain function and behavioral expression provides the basis and measures for assessing the comparable nature of consciousness in any individuals. If an individual's brain activity and behavioral testing suggest awareness, we can be confident that this individual is indeed aware.

 

Since the crux of consciousness discussions is about what feels reasonable, you can't just say say "Oh give me empirical evidence" over and over. How am I supposed to give you emperical evidence that someone else is not a pzombie? How am I supposed to empirically prove that someone is sentient and has awareness and consciousness? Constantly demanding for empirical evidence is absurd and ridiculous. We don't use empirical evidence, we just use our "gut" and say, my gut tells me solipsism is not real and other people are beings with feelings just like me.

 

Unfortunately, the crux of consciousness discussions in scientific forums like this is indeed about "empirical evidence." Without such evidence, how are we to know what we believe is actually true? What "feels reasonable" isn't actually reason or always reliable, in my opinion. It may feel reasonable to drink from a nearby stream but I certainly wouldn't without knowing what is actually in that water. Accordingly, I don't accept ideas with a basis I can't independently verify.

 

That being said, there IS one kind of empirical evidence that people refuse to explore regarding consciousness. Hospitals around the world REFUSE to put a paper-code above the bunk-bed of dying patients (Most of them don't even have bunk-beds, but all that is needed is perhaps a Food table above their eye-level.) THIS would be empirical evidence that we can leave our bodies, if they can leave their bodies during an NDE and correctly report the paper code (or mystery object) above eye level.

 

Of course...noone will do this, because the world is ran by mostly just a bunch of idiots. Of all the billions of people in the world, of the few that can OBE on command, not one will setup anything scientific for me. I even go to hippie circles and I tell them..."Can we set up a science experiment and do this right" and they just ghost me and refuse to set up anything scientifically. I guarantee if I go to a hospital and instruct them how to set it up scientifically, they will just blow me off, give me the runaround and not setup anything in a scientific manner. I would want to prove, once and for all, whether or not OBE's are real. But noone want's to know. And it's obvious why they don't want to know.

 

 

I'm familiar with these OBE experiments, which have yet to yield any credible evidence supporting reports of that experience.

 

What you are describing is personality and ego. Not the core "us". When a cat yells at me and beckons me to open the door...that is the real "us". That animal awareness.

And of course our personality dies with the brain. But I'm not 100% sure of that, it could be retained maybe, who knows. In any case, you seem to be conflating personality with "ou"/"us", and it's damping the discussion.

Personality != Consciousness.

 

 

That reply you quoted regarded the question "do you believe we are our awareness"? My response regards my thoughts on what makes us who we are indifferent to consciousness; therefore, no conflation. Being 100% sure of one's own position may be comforting but not particularly or necessarily reassuring to others without evidence they can study and verify to their own satisfaction.

Edited by DrmDoc

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Since we do so love playing around with words, and swapping out the intended definition of the author with something else, I guess I won't use the word "Consciousness" and "Awareness" because people want to play around with these words and swap out the intended definition the author had for them.

 

So for now on, I am using these terms: "Pzombie" or "Not Pzombie".

There is no empirical way, evidence, or data to determine if someone is a Pzombie, (except for yourself) and I doubt there ever will be.

 

The only empirical evidence that may be of interest is to determine whether OBE's are real. If OBE's are real that opens up a world of theories and possibilities.

 

Being 100% sure of one's own position may be comforting but not particularly or necessarily reassuring to others without evidence they can study and verify to their own satisfaction.

 

I am not 100% sure that we reincarnate but I sense strongly that we do.

Just like I am not 100% sure that people are not pzombies, but I sense strongly that some people are not pzombies.
This is due to pure deductive logic, and not actual evidence. I feel strongly they are not p-zombies because they seem to exhibit certain characteristics similar to me, thus it seems logical to say they are not p-zombies. And I feel strongly for reincarnation for various logical reasons that I stated earlier.

 

But one thing of I am 100% sure.

If reincarnation is not real, that means there is infinite amount of non-existence.

So if you say you believe in infinite non-existence that means you are following a belief system (a belief system I find to be illogical and improbable.)

The second thing is if there is infinite non-existence then nothing you do actually matters, because you will never become conscious of anything again. If I actually believed such a thing to a certainty I would have checked out of this world long ago.

Edited by quickquestion

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Since we do so love playing around with words, and swapping out the intended definition of the author with something else, I guess I won't use the word "Consciousness" and "Awareness" because people want to play around with these words and swap out the intended definition the author had for them.

 

So for now on, I am using these terms: "Pzombie" or "Not Pzombie".

There is no empirical way, evidence, or data to determine if someone is a Pzombie, (except for yourself) and I doubt there ever will be.

 

The only empirical evidence that may be of interest is to determine whether OBE's are real. If OBE's are real that opens up a world of theories and possibilities.

 

I am not 100% sure that we reincarnate but I sense strongly that we do.

Just like I am not 100% sure that people are not pzombies, but I sense strongly that some people are not pzombies.

This is due to pure deductive logic, and not actual evidence. I feel strongly they are not p-zombies because they seem to exhibit certain characteristics similar to me, thus it seems logical to say they are not p-zombies. And I feel strongly for reincarnation for various logical reasons that I stated earlier.

 

But one thing of I am 100% sure.

If reincarnation is not real, that means there is infinite amount of non-existence.

So if you say you believe in infinite non-existence that means you are following a belief system (a belief system I find to be illogical and improbable.)

The second thing is if there is infinite non-existence then nothing you do actually matters, because you will never become conscious of anything again. If I actually believed such a thing to a certainty I would have checked out of this world long ago.

 

This discussion thread is posted to the Neuroscience Forum. Perhaps the quality you are discussing or want to discuss is best suited for the Philosophy or Religion Forum? There, perhaps, you may find respondents more amenable to your perspective.

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This discussion thread is posted to the Neuroscience Forum. Perhaps the quality you are discussing or want to discuss is best suited for the Philosophy or Religion Forum? There, perhaps, you may find respondents more amenable to your perspective.

This topic has derailed from the OP, so I suppose that's a good idea.

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This discussion thread is posted to the Neuroscience Forum. Perhaps the quality you are discussing or want to discuss is best suited for the Philosophy or Religion Forum? There, perhaps, you may find respondents more amenable to your perspective.

 

But then I'll have to deal with religious people and their answers?

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But then I'll have to deal with religious people and their answers?

Your question was skillfully and accurately answered by an informed individual in the very first reply to this thread in post #2.

 

What other questions do you still have that remain outstanding or worthy of further exploration?

 

 

[mp][/mp]

I am not 100% sure that we reincarnate but I sense strongly that we do. (...) I feel strongly they(...) And I feel strongly for reincarnation

No offense, but your feelings are wholly irrelevant to the scientific method and to our objective collective exploration of reality.

 

From the perspective of the rest of us, your feelings on the topic are about as useful as an ashtray on a moving motorbike or a grave robber in a crematorium and this remains true regardless of how strongly you feel them.

 

Now, kindly please stop hijacking threads with this nonsense.

Edited by iNow

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But then I'll have to deal with religious people and their answers?

 

That reply you quoted regarded my impression of quickquestion's posts to this thread. If your interests regard evidence in established science, then you are certainly posting to the right forum.

What country are you people from? I'm new to this website, I'm from the United States.

 

Some of us list that information as part of our member profile. I'm from the U.S. also.

Edited by DrmDoc

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Your question was skillfully and accurately answered by an informed individual in the very first reply to this thread in post #2.

 

What other questions do you still have that remain outstanding or worthy of further exploration?

 

 

[mp][/mp]

No offense, but your feelings are wholly irrelevant to the scientific method and to our objective collective exploration of reality.

 

From the perspective of the rest of us, your feelings on the topic are about as useful as an ashtray on a moving motorbike or a grave robber in a crematorium and this remains true regardless of how strongly you feel them.

 

Now, kindly please stop hijacking threads with this nonsense.

Last post I will make in this thread regarding this, but I've already given logical reasons as to why you cannot use "scientific method" to prove or disprove solipism, which was one of the cruxes of my argument. So it's ridiculous to say my "feelings are as useful as an ashtray" because I've already explain how feelings and logic (logical feelings) are the only way to infer any kind of ideas about pzombies or "objective collective exploration" related issues about pzombies in regards to reality.

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I've already given logical reasons as to why you cannot use "scientific method" to prove or disprove solipism, which was one of the cruxes of my argument. So it's ridiculous to say my "feelings are as useful as an ashtray" because I've already explain how feelings and logic (logical feelings) are the only way to infer any kind of ideas about pzombies or "objective collective exploration" related issues about pzombies in regards to reality.

Perhaps you missed the part about this being a science forum?

Edited by iNow

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I was wondering what happens to your consciousness when you go to sleep? Does it it cease to exist or does your brain enter a stage in which it still exists but your your senses don't pick up anything?

Your consciousness never really sleeps. When you are sleeping many factors can cause your consciousness to wake your body.

-if you have to pee

-a crying baby

-shouting

-pain

-changing temperature

-if your body is enough rested

...

 

When you sleep, it's only your body that really sleeps (to recharge). Your brain (and nervous system) becomes less sensitive for external stimuli.

It alo seems that women wake up faster because of a crying baby then men.

Edited by Itoero

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I was wondering what happens to your consciousness when you go to sleep? Does it it cease to exist or does your brain enter a stage in which it still exists but your your senses don't pick up anything?

 

No one know knows why people dream. Some say when your sleep your consciousness is not like when you where awake. So you dream because your brain cannot have thoughts of nothing.

 

Others say your dreams are memories your brain is filing away.

 

I'm not sure what position you're conveying here regarding brain death but if we are talking about evidence in science, a brain that is dead cannot and does not produce evidence of consciousness by any standard of medical science. Consciousness does not exist in brain death when there is no measurable or observable evidence in either overt behavior or through appropriate medical testing.

 

 

 

I think he or she is getting confuse what lack of consciousness is vs brain dead.

 

I think he or she is getting confuse what lack of consciousness is or means. It like saying I want you to picture or think of nothing. Your brain has hard time thinking or picturing nothing.

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No one know knows why people dream. Some say when your sleep your consciousness is not like when you where awake. So you dream because your brain cannot have thoughts of nothing.

 

Others say your dreams are memories your brain is filing away.

 

I disagree; those who don't know why people dream haven't sufficiently studied or understood the neuroscience of the dreaming brain. Those who have studied that neuroscience and understand its complexities concurrently with a perspective of brain evolution, do know why people dream. Dreaming is a byproduct of the metabolic processes of sleep, which necessitates brain activity that produces dreaming. What most people don't know about dreaming regards the genesis of dream content. We have knowledge of why we dream but little agreement on how the content of that experience emerges. After nearly a lifetime of study, I can say with some confidence that I have a very good idea about how dream content primarily emerges. In my opinion, our dreams emerge from a combination of our unconscious perceptions during sleep and our final thoughts before sleep onset.

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I disagree; those who don't know why people dream haven't sufficiently studied or understood the neuroscience of the dreaming brain. Those who have studied that neuroscience and understand its complexities concurrently with a perspective of brain evolution, do know why people dream. Dreaming is a byproduct of the metabolic processes of sleep, which necessitates brain activity that produces dreaming. What most people don't know about dreaming regards the genesis of dream content. We have knowledge of why we dream but little agreement on how the content of that experience emerges. After nearly a lifetime of study, I can say with some confidence that I have a very good idea about how dream content primarily emerges. In my opinion, our dreams emerge from a combination of our unconscious perceptions during sleep and our final thoughts before sleep onset.

 

Yes but what is the driving force? Why does metabolic processes of sleep need byproduct of dreaming? What does dreaming brain serve or do that is needed?

 

If sleep main role is the memories in your brain is being filing away or organized? Some auto immune system, repair or organizing? If that is why we sleep? Why does it require dreaming? What does dreaming serve or do that is needed?

 

People ponder why we need to sleep and dream.

 

Even if dreaming is memories being organized, clean, dumped, stored or filing away!! Why such strange dreams of things I have never seen or strange dreams?

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