studiot

I don't know where you are in the world, but it is available free on the BBC iplayer.

First class +1

So what is the point of the thermal insulation ? Please complete your engine description without missing stuff out.

How is this a reply to my question ?

As I understand your idea, you want to extract thermal energy (heat) from the environment into your engine where that energy is converted and output as work. Yet you also say that the system is insulated. So, first question, how does the heat from the environment enter your engine ?

Actually an off topic aside but Buckingham's book is a great read, including examples of where chirality matters a great deal, eg the Thalidomide story. Also actually my question was about chemical kinetics, not chemical chirality. I am observing that a particular sequence of chemical events brought about Life, but there could be other ones or other occurrences of the same sequence. Chemical kinetics is based on statistics and a proper statistical analysis of these various alternatives would bring greater insight.

Here is a summary from a 2004 view (John Buckingham "Chasing the Molecule") - the original reference also came from this book.

Have you come across Japp's theory in relation to chirality ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Robert_Japp

Yes and it is a respectful one, rather than the condescending one you are adopting with me.

I am sorry but I am no clearer than I was without this answer as it does not directly address my question. More especially since your answer in a previous thread was that DNA always existed or something similar. You have yet to provide a clear answer to Zapatos' question about that. I am finding that this dancing around three or four threads with the same agenda is quite wearing. If, as you have said more than once now, you would like to debate the pros and cons of your idea of 'darwinian evolution' why don't you start a proper thread on the subject ? I must admit that when I read Darwin's book I was suprised at the contents, in particular the consideration he gave to alternatives and also what he actually propsed as opposed to popular misconceptions about his proposals.

What please is your definition of a 'creationist' and in what way do you align with them ?

The simple fact remains that you made the absolute claim in the first place and repeated it twice (rather like someone in the Bible ?) Since you introduced it as a 'scientific fact', and since it would be a very fundamental fact if substantiated, I am asking you to substantiate it properly. Please note I am also responding to your general posting which seems to show a proper scientific nature rather than something different. Is that too much to ask ?

Exactly. That is why I am asking, as clearly as I can, for the required level of support for an absolute claim such as You, sir, have stated this absolutely at least three times now, without consideration for alternatives. Or do you deny that alternatives exist ? The very title and question of this thread would suggest that the OP (and I ) acknowledge that we (and Science) do not know if there is a definite answer, let alone what such an answer might be.

I made no such claim. If you want claims about biology, ask a biologist. I merely pointed out that your statement How do you know ? Rejects all other possibilities. However I would observe that in the geological record at one time there was (almost) no free oxygen on Earth. All early life must therefore have been anaerobic. The presence of Life did indeed change the planet geologically. I would also observe that following each of the 5 great extinctions known, many, if not the mojority, of lifeforms were quite different before and after the horizon in the fossil record. A good study of this is given by Professor Benton of Bristol University in his book "When Life Nearly Died." Another study, unfortunately only stretching back to the Cambrian, is by Professor Beerling of Sheffield University "The Emerald Planet". This one is the only detailed paleohistory of the atmousphere that I know of. Finally, in case you think that I support the clarion call you here to often in these forums, "Science must be Mathematic", here is my favourite passage showing how rational thinking can be at least as strong as an equation.

That's only evidence. You made a much strionger statement. In particular you precluded the possibility that the same or similar sequence of events occured more than once on Earth.

I didn't ask for a consensus, I asked for Mathematics. Chemical kinetics is maths, not unsupported waffle. How do you know ?

Edit Thank you for that link. I did not appreciate the comment about Science, where did I say it was ?

So perhaps someone with sufficient biological knowledge might like to address my points about the chemical kinetics of the reactions that led to life and its precursor chemicals. All I know about them is that the kinetics of these reactions are some of the most complicated known, many without a (known) closed form solution.

I note that @Evomumbojumbohas been online a while back. So I would like to remind members that he is still unable to reply to their posts as he has yet to pass the 5 posts in the first 24 hours limit. Several have asked for clarification of his position and I, for one, do not understand it so am unwilling to say whether I consider it right or wrong until he has had a proper chance to clarify.

OK so maybe RNA is an autocatalyst. But how did the first molecule of RNA from ? (This is equivalent to asking did Adam have a navel) Actually lots of folks have considered this question. https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en-GB&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=RNA+autocatalysis&iflsig=ALs-wAMAAAAAYenPdzZGQshq61NkRjjw0ZBSHtq2UEo0&gbv=2&oq=RNA+autocatalysis&gs_l=heirloom-hp.3...1082.5864.0.6258.17.17.0.0.0.0.306.2478.2j7j3j2.14.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-hp..6.11.1842.0XdHvwMhTXo

I would be very wary of expecting parallels between modern biological processes and primordial ones. This is because of the large number of bio-catalysts that modern life employs for its processes. Primordial chemical processes will not have had the benefit of these catalysts, as we would have to believe that not only did the right components come togther for the protein etc to form but also the right components for the catalyst as well. (Most such catalysts are complicated biomolecules in their own right). Indeed it begs the question, which came first the catalyst or the product protein ?

Some quotes from the evolutionary biologist JBS Haldane. http://www.quotehd.com/quotes/j-b-s-haldane-quote-the-creator-if-he-exists-has-a-special-preference-for

Rainbow cave, Horumuz Island, Iran. https://www.geologypage.com/2020/12/rainbow-cave-hormuz-island-iran.html

Thanks for the reply. I really can't evaluate the 'intelligence' of octopussys, tomatoes or similar. That would involve know exactly what intelligence is . However the more we study Nature the more examples of 'intelligent ' activity we discover, even in the plant kingdom. David Attenborough's latest 'planet' series has some striking new examples, some based on time lapse photography. This is ideal for plants, which operate over a generally longer timescale than more mobile 'creatures'. But Attenborough's time lapse video shows many plant behaving in a similar way to creatures over months or even years rather than minutes. Such a tolerance of many years of timescale would give space travelling plants an advantage. On another tack, it is well known that ants are livestock farmers. But (again thank you Attenborough) on Sunday I found out that they are also arable farmers. Apparantly they collect and compost (readers of the compost thread please note) suitable leaves and then feed them to certain fungi which produce substances the ants want.