iNow

How do you know you’re a man, or not homosexual? It’s really no different.

Nobody has denied that. You’re simply wrong in your conclusion that I argued against a strawman. But here we are yet again with you derailing a topic.

Again, no. Just sloppy thinking from you. When I say, “this argument reminds me of this other thing I’ve heard elsewhere,” it is NOT a strawman… but at least you’re consistent with your false assertions and misunderstandings.

Ugh. Same argument like we used to hear about people “choosing” to be gay. Such ridiculous thinking

A few things. Like being gay, I reject that idea that being trans is a choice. Second, we’re not talking about “anybody doing any thing.” We’re talking about trans humans in sports. No, you simply didn’t meet the threshold requirements. It’s no different than what I’m describing for sports. Being male or being female shouldn’t be a threshold requirement.

This is false and based on poor reasoning IMO. I’m thinking of categories like weight classes in wrestling as an easy example. Even when 2 wrestlers are at the exact same weight (the thing which qualifies them to compete in that particular class), they are never equal in skill nor guaranteed a win as the outcome. Same for boxing and many other sports. I’m simply proposing we extend this type of categorization, minus concern for gender. Voila… doesn’t matter if you’re trans, boy, girl, or other. You either qualify for that class or you don’t. Once qualified, you compete against other similarly qualified humans.

I’d agree with you, but then we’d both be wrong. You’ve been corrected on this point above at least 4 distinct times in this thread. It’s a shame you’ve not comprehended those corrections and are simply digging in your heals when shown to be mistaken. Tell me again why setting qualification thresholds for divisions and classes in sports can’t be achieved using metrics which ignore gender…whatever they may be?

Question to the thread: Tell me again why setting qualification thresholds for divisions and classes in sports can’t be achieved using metrics which ignore gender…whatever they may be?

If the space is completely empty, what’s making the assertions about existence or doing the measuring?

I understand your position, and I imagine you’ll eventually come around when the rest of the world finally accepts trans humans as equally deserving and finally treats these assertions of disadvantage as the relics and well intentioned examples of misguided thinking that they are. Note also I’m not much of a fisherman either, and for the same reasons. You and I may have to stay behind to sip some whiskey and laugh together while everyone else puts their lines into the water, competitively or otherwise ✌️

Not really, or at least it shouldn’t be. These have only been mentioned to show in simplest terms the rather remedial flaws in the position of those here falsely arguing that XX and XY are all there is and that “science says there’s only TWO sexes!!!1!12!one!!” If fairness is the goal, why not rid ourselves of gender distinctions entirely and set our class systems in the various strength-based sports based on measurable things like testosterone levels and amount of weight that can be lifted/pushed/pulled as appropriate for the sport? Then qualification is based on something more fair for everyone, and not the mere absence of testicles or chest hair. Any person can compete in any division of their choosing. They self select where to compete and in which class, and they just need to meet the requirements of that class. We can no longer care about which plumbing they happen to have in the nether regions or whether they can pee standing up. Instead, we could look at threshold skill levels and other things like hormone concentrations. After that, doesn’t matter if we call the athlete male or female or other. They’re simply “qualified for this class / division” or they are not. Done! I don’t understand why people think this has to be so hard or intractable.

I wasn’t exactly fishing for compliments, but there’s no need to cast me aside like that

Tying all this talk back to the thread, I feel that issues like transgendered athletes are lures cast into social media by bad actors and bottom feeders to bait us all into choppy waters. They’re basically chumming and dredging with small insignificant issues so we become distracted and don’t focus on more important things or focus on their wrongdoings and the way they rig the system. Too often we oblige and get reeled in and fall for it hook, line, and sinker. I don’t think it needs to be this hard, though. Letting the trans athletes compete may feel like swimming against the current, but the tributaries are likely to be fertile and the lakes well stocked if we allow it.

Maybe not where YOU live 🙄

Which, as you may understand, makes dialog with you on possible paths forward rather challenging and frustrating. Some of us would like a better solution than “let them have their own separate water fountains.”

Thank you. I did see that. It was interesting, but I struggled to accept it as a non biased source when they did things like calling the existing rules delusional and unfair. They even mentioned the “parade of horribles” which would likely ensue as nations would begin “coercing” their male athletes to falsely declare themselves as female before competitions in order to secure trophies, etc. I was reminded of comments in gay marriage threads where people would ask, “what’s next, letting humans marry their dogs?” It strongly implied to me that the author had an agenda and needed to be read with a grain of salt. Yes, I would prefer an actual study with actual evidence that’s been peer-reviewed… something that goes beyond an anecdote from an opinion writer. Note: They do reference testosterone levels. As I think has already been mentioned here, we could eliminate differentiation by gender/sex altogether and class groups by serum testosterone amounts regardless of the XX XY etc makeup. There are better paths available.

That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. If you’d like to share some peer reviewed articles about the scope and scale of the problem… real-world examples of the disadvantages cisgendered female athletes are facing in athletics due specifically to the six (tee hee ) trans athletes competing against them, then I’d be happy to review it and possibly reconsider my stance... Ideally something more than the fictional examples of Mike Tyson putting on a dress or people with robotic arms in the Olympics as have thus far been provided. Until then, I’ll simply need to accept your disapproval of me and perhaps comfort myself in the recognition that I’m almost certainly once again on the right side of history with my current stance on this topic (much like I was on the right side with gay marriage, civil rights, universal healthcare, climate change, evolution, and other similar topics where one side is very clearly right and the other side is very clearly wrong).

QFT Repeating an invalid claim doesn’t magically make it true.

Since February

No. That is rather obviously not the proposal to which I was responding.

My focus was on the separate but equal treatment being suggested. MtF and FtM as separate categories was the part to which I was responding. I’m saying the responses are similar not that the topics are the same. “You want to compete? Okay, but you can’t join any of the others and you must wear this yellow star on your armband.” “You want to marry? Okay, but it can’t be called a marriage. It must be a civil union.”

That is not what I said. Not at all. I’ve already clarified this for you more than once, yet you persist in your misrepresentation. It’s as if I’d said, “This is a lovely home. It reminds me of my grandmothers house,” and you replied, “I’ve never lived with your grandmother. I don’t even know her. Why are you lying? What’s wrong with you?” Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

This is an extremely common talking point shared by the misinformed, but it’s wrong. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/ I’ve done both. Thx coach

Thanks for sharing that lovely insight. That remains irrelevant to my point and it seems clear you’re refusing to argue in good faith.

It’s called a comparison. A suggestion of similarity. This isn’t exactly rocket science.