Outrider

No but at some point, as a layman, I need to accept the experts explanation of how a particular process works. Either that or educate myself to their level. When Strange, studiot, swansont, John Cuthber and Bill Nye the science guy all claim it works a certain way it probaly does.

The Panoramic Survey Telescope and Rapid Response System (Pan-STARRS) in Hawaii has discovered a visitor from afar. Pan-STARRS primary mission is to detect near earth objects that pose an impact threat but sometimes they get to do fun science like this. The asteroid seems to come from the constellation Lyra, but the exact origin is still unknown. It has been named Oumuamua, Hawaiian for “a messenger from afar arriving first” and they think it has traveled millions of years to visit us. https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/20/16679890/interstellar-asteroid-oumuamua-pan-starrs-solar-system http://www.eso.org/public/news/eso1737/ From the second link:

Wow what an idea for 1783! I had never heard of dark stars. Thanks for the link Strange hint, hint OP. Certain fields, astronomy is one, many of those we remember for being wrong were geniuses in their own right.

I was thinking along the same lines. Perhaps the accretion disks get ripped off before the black holes get close enough to produce gravitational waves? Just a WAG. How bout a neutron star and a black hole? Is that even considered a merger or just lunch? I'll let you know what I think of the article after I read it. To much distraction to read it at work. Reading ES reminds me of what an old man told me along time ago. "Its important to listen to every word."

Thanks all for your comments this discussion is fascinating for me. Its been a busy day at work and that pesky political forum keeps distracting me. Can I put a topic on ignore? Just kidding, just kidding. I hope to come back to this soon.

Thanks Strange! I was planning to ask the question. Is there any scenario where we would have a visible component of a black hole merger? I haven't read the article yet but I am a fan of Ethan Siegel and I am sure he will give a fine explanation.

Well I did chuckle a bit if that was your intent but I cannot agree. Its a good point tho if we go around calling things less bad enough we might well start to think of them as gooder. This is how we warp our morals. Recently a man took a lathe out of gear but did not turn the motor off. He started loosening the jaws with a very large allen key when another wrench fell and hit the gear lever. When the machine came on the allen key took off his thumb at once and when it hit the other side it took half each of his middle and ring fingers. I have heard a lot of people say it could have been worse. I have heard no one say it was good in any way.

I was only trying to get you to see where I am coming from. I am a man with no political party and in the last POTUS election I had no candidate that I could conscientiously vote for. Thats my opinion and I have no intention of debating that in this thread. I hope to have time to explain myself better in the future but today is not that day. Ok I agree with all of that with one exception. Al was contrite after he was caught that makes a large difference for me. Look I am not saying brand sex offender on his cheek or anything but I do think he should step down. As should Trump and Moore and others. I guess my main message here is less bad dosent equal good.

Ok I think we are about as close as we are going to get. I agree with most, maybe, all of that. I'll have to concede I wasn't really thinking about how old the picture was. I agree if the incident happened years before my employment there would probaly be minimal or no punishment. However I do expect our senators to be held to a higher level. It seems often that the reverse is true. Maybe. That just shows how bad things have become. I agree and feel free to hold me to this. The reason you don't see me in all those other threads is because there is little for me to say other than "yes you are right."

Your welcome. Cheers. I am not denying any of that I am pointing out none of it makes Al less guilty. Abby Honold is a rape victim who asked Al Franken to draft a bill that would provide federal funding for special law enforcement training on interviewing victims of rape. If Al had said yes but theres something you should know first. I could see showing leniency. If at any time this year while all the scandals kept rolling Al had come clean I could see showing mercy. But that is not what happened. He only owned up when accused by a woman with some pretty good evidence in her hand. If he gets "tarred and feathered" that will be his reward for using his power to take what he wanted. Leeann has already given him his reward for his apology. Forgiveness and thats no small thing. BTW Ten oz, rangerx, anybody, everybody. What will happen if tomorrow a female coworker comes in with a similar picture of you? I would be fired with very little conversation. Really? You missed the part right above what you quoted where I said Donald Trump and Roy Moore's actions are worse. I guess you also missed where I said I wouldn't vote for DT. I have also never voted for RM nor will I. Trump was on my no vote list way before he even got the nomination for various things. The issue at hand here is the mistreatment of Leeann Tweeden. What you speak of is a bigger and larger issue and is being rightfully discused in other threads. The actions of AF in no way excuse the actions of others. The actions of others in no way excuse the actions of AF. Well looky there it works both ways. Now if we could get our politics to work like that. BTW just so you know I withdrew my support for the Republican party years ago on the grounds that they are bonkers.

This why we continue to elect turds to political offices. You and others believe ones actions can be "dwarfed" by others actions. Yes what DT and RM did was worse but that does not lessen the impact of what AF did. If I rape one girl and you rape fifty I'm not so bad? You could have shut waitforufo down early on by just admitting AF's actions were deplorable and left it at that. This would have garnered much respect from me and probably plenty of lurkers well. On the bright side some of the leading democrats seem to be handling this in the right way. As for now I will be adding Al to my refuse to vote for list. Donald is on there as is Hillary. He admitted it after he got caught. I will give him some small credit for not making excuses. In my experience people rarely get caught the first time they do wrong so more may follow. Not saying it will just that its early. They are both horrible equally. That picture will never go away. Now every time somebody looks at her funny she will wonder if they are thinking about that picture and judging her in some way. Even sadder some will be. Can you imagine someone you love in that chair? What does her parents think? Spouse if she has one? Kids? Women who work with and around AF? Sexual harassment. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/11/democrats-embrace-ethics-committee-inquiry-for-senator-franken/546122/

IDK maybe the kiss should. Franken was wrong period. All this "we are not quite as bad as you are" is pathetic. Good for Franken he is owning his mistake and seems willing to pay the consequences. None of which changes the fact that he used his power and influence to take what he wanted. Just like Trump I hope he gets what he deserves. I hope (I doubt it) I live long enough to see wrong treated as wrong regardless of political affiliation. I hope I live long enough to see people choose good instead of not quite as bad. Ethics violations of course. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/11/16/leading-senate-democrats-call-for-ethics-investigation-into-al-franken/

Yep you did. I misread. I just picked six months out of the air but I would want at least two months for verification. Anything that fights corruption I am for. I really don't see it as a burden maybe a slight inconvenience. Also we can tie it into the civics classes iNow suggested. As on any issue I really never see this point one of the most amazing thing the framers ever did was write it on paper as opposed to carving it in stone. Ok here I see your point. Maybe my proposal is a bit to ambitious. I think it would.

Ten oz I totally agree with your first paragraph. I see no need to keep the electoral college in any form or really even have a voting process for the GOP or DNC candidate. I believe that in the last election many were voting against Trump or Clinton instead of voting for someone they wanted to lead the country. Both parties have failed in the past to give us viable candidates. Walter Mondale comes to mind for the democrats and Romney for the republicans. This was the first time IMO that both candidates were unfit for office. If we were to go to popular vote perhaps it would be a good thing to have a runoff if no candidate can amass a certain percentage of the vote. 55%? And those that would rig the system are ready and willing to expend a huge amount of effort. I know its no small thing I'm asking but if it can assure a fair election would it not be worth it? Of course I am open to other suggestions I just think me voting from my phone is not a good idea. For who? With the current system I have to be at a specific place on a specific day. With my proposal I would have a whole week to make it to that specific place. I like this idea.

In case you missed it I'll repost Moontanman's link. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_plant Like others have said this is not what most mean when they say "free energy". But it is free for us somebody else paid the bill. Well unless you take into account the waste thats not going away for generations and the occasional meltdown that makes large swathes of land unlivable.

Well I forgot to add part of one of my provisions so I will resubmit with an important modification to #2. 1. Abolish the electoral college. 2. Voting to take place the 1st of November thru the 7th every 4 years. The tally is to be kept secret until all votes have been made and counted. 3. The voting is to take place on a closed network of computers in every court house. 4. The network will be monitored by 100 auditors 50 appointed by the DNC and 50 by the GOP. All compensation to be paid with campaign funds. 5. All voters must be registered in a federal database at least 6 months prior to November of an election year. Thanks for your reply. As for direction once I hit the submit button the thread is ours not mine. As a condition of registering to vote? Ok but the sticking point with some is going to be with whats going to be taught and who is going to do the teaching but I think we can hammer all that out. This goes along well with my point 5 and helps identify who is voting. I know many of the voter id proposals are underhanded attemps at discrimination but I think it is important to find a fair way to id each voter. If we make this a week long affair there will be no need. Don't know if you realize but the majority of the middle class do not get all the national holidays. I certainly don't. Also the practice of a minute by minute tally of the vote was a horrible idea. We need to keep the tally secret until all ballots are counted. Any thing you can think of that takes money and/or lobbying out of the system I am all for! I had more but its late srrry. Maybe tomorrow.

Kudos for owning your mistake. Here is a thread for those who wish to discuss the electoral college and possible alternatives. http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/111658-electoral-college-should-i-stay-or-should-i-go/

For those who do not know. A very thorough review. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_College_(United_States) A shorter version with a quote. https://votesmart.org/education/electoral-college#.WguT9nNMG7N . So there are some who say our method of voting for POTUS is outdated and broken and needs to be replaced. I am agreeable to the concept if implemented in the right way. If the electoral college is abolished and everything else left pretty much the same my almost worthless vote would become completely worthless. So here is my proposal. 1. Abolish the electoral college. 2. Voting to take place the 1st of November thru the 7th every 4 years. 3. The voting is to take place on a closed network of computers in every court house. 4. The network will be monitored by 100 auditors 50 appointed by the DNC and 50 by the GOP. All compensation to be paid with campaign funds. 5. All voters must be registered in a federal database at least 6 months prior to November of an election year. P.S. I know number 4 needs some work if we are ever to move beyond our two party system.

I'm not sure that makes much difference for me. I think consciousness can be seperate from the chemical processes it depends on. I can't either but I think there are some alive today if given enough information and an adequate computer who could. I think the students have the control over their grades. All others have influence and that influence is a very big part of the equation. The parents, teachers, system etc. can give the students better and better chances to do well but in the end its the students choice what they do with the chance that is offered. I can agree with that. I'm going to have to chew on this awhile longer. Thanks for an awesome post I wish I had better answers for you.

Oddly enough I came to the same conclusion in the "inner peace" thread about a week ago. Maybe its just us? From your link: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/control The word influence indicates something less than total. How can one improve their ball control if control if it is an all or nothing concept. See I think the above is a different concept from the below. Because consciousness is an emergent phenomenon it has a sum greater than its parts. Do we agree so far? As such we can consider it more than just biology or above if you prefer. All the while recognizing consciousness is still completely dependant on the biology. The "can it exist beyond it somehow", for me, ventures into the supernatural realm and as such deserves its own thread. A thread I will most likely will not even read much less participate in. iNow, Ten oz and whomever. Are you strictly deterministic? Do you think that given enough of the initial conditions of the BB and enough computing power that you could have predicted that I would make this post today? If so why do you try so hard in the political (and other) threads to change things for the better?

It seems the opposite to me. I may try to find you another sometime.

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4684-2196-5_8 So...if "this bag of water and chemicals that form each of us as an entity" hold the beliefs that drive the decisions that mold our lives then we do have control.

Consciousness emerged from chemical processes and in so doing gained a limited yet very meaningful control over those same processes. I am, at least in part, that consciousness. Now will you please answer some of my questions? In particular the one I have asked twice.

You may freely abandon it if you will it. But it remains a useful, if somewhat arbitrary, division for me. Me. Is it god like for me to make decisions for myself? I disagree I think nothing could make me more distinctly human. It's all me I think we agree here. No...yes? The disagreement comes from where I insist I drive this bus where the "I" is the part of me that is having this conversation with you. My subconscious is recording and analysing all this and will at some point have input perhaps in my dreams perhaps in other ways. Meanwhile my gut microbes are planning my next meal. Just a joke, a bad joke, sorry. I think my microbes have the most influence over my emotions which is another input into my decisions. I think there are many inputs both internal and external. You are an external input. In the end the final say is mine. The conscious me responsible for the long range planning of my life. The subconscious and other parts of me have influence I have control not absolute but a measure of. Of course I could be completely and utterly wrong about all of it. I am aware of that fact. At the end of the post I will let you know why it dosent matter. Mechanism for training subconscious? I think my subconscious takes it's cues from my conscious decisions and also what I watch, read and listen to. See subliminal messages. I see you drop some money without noticing and no one else is around. I pick it up. My next decision will train my subconscious either to help others or to grab everything I can for myself. These decisions little by little add up to make me who I am today. Thank you for the article. As I mentioned before I am fairly aware of this research but somewhat out of date. This read did alot to catch me up. Your welcome but I think you missed my question. In the article it states "The list goes on: Believing that free will is an illusion has been shown to make people less creative, more likely to conform, less willing to learn from their mistakes, and less grateful toward one another." I don't care if the statement is true or false. I want to know who or what is believing that freewill is an illusion? In other words if our beliefs drive our decisions who or what is doing the believing? As to why none of it matters I will leave that up to @Strange in this thread. http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/99341-interface-theory-of-perception/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-949220 Strange said:

iNow I agree with koti that was a very substantial post your gut bacteria wrote. But then again it's not like you had much choice. I am well aware of the experiments and observations that show activity in our subconscious before the choice is made. I just happen to think that the conscious side of me is, at least in part, what trained my subconscious to make these decisions. I think it's a mechanism that in the past helped us avoid becoming mammoth pancakes and now helps me survive the freeway. If everytime someone swerved into my lane I had to consciously work through my evasive maneuvers I wouldn't be here. Even if we don't (I think we do) have freewill in every momentary decision we at least get to choose what direction our lfe takes. Wether we will be honest or deceitful, honorable or less so, etc. I think my subconscious is me and I also think the many microbes that inhabit this body maybe could be considered me as well. Maybe sometime in the future the gut will be thought of as being an extension of the brain or even visa versa. Yes I'm really serious, chuckling a bit as I write, but yeah I meant what I said. Here is an article from The Atlantic discussing some experiments where one group was read an article explaining how freewill was an illusion and the control group was not. Then their actions were observed. The main point of the article is not my point I am just using it to illustrate my point. But it's still a good read and I hope you do. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/06/theres-no-such-thing-as-free-will/480750/ So who or what here is "believing that freewill is an illusion"?