Ophiolite Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 I find it impressive that the statement made in the OP article by a scientist that the universe is infinite raised from you a very quiet comment: And when the same statement originates from a new member, it becomes fantasy. I shall differ somewhat from Strange in response to this. If, I repeat if, the scientist did indeed say this, it is highly probable that they did so with an extensive knowledge of the arguments for and against an infinite universe, and the skill set to evaluate these arguments and their evidence in great detail. Their conclusion would be provisional and clearly based on a thorough examination of the facts. While one might personally doubt their conclusion, one would respect the means by which it had been reached. Disagreement with that conclusion would rightly focus on how particular evidence had been interpreted, or the weight given to different aspects. On the other hand Gater readily admitted he was wholly ignorant of any of the arguments for an infinite universe, or any of the evidence on which these arguments were based. Also, by his own admission, he lacks the mathematical skills to properly assess those arguments or evidence. Worse still, when these deficiencies are pointed out to him he rejects them as being irrelevant and suggests those who think this way are foolish. A position such as that is deserving of pity, but not respect. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel123456 Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 I shall differ somewhat from Strange in response to this. If, I repeat if, the scientist did indeed say this, it is highly probable that they did so with an extensive knowledge of the arguments for and against an infinite universe, and the skill set to evaluate these arguments and their evidence in great detail. Their conclusion would be provisional and clearly based on a thorough examination of the facts. While one might personally doubt their conclusion, one would respect the means by which it had been reached. Disagreement with that conclusion would rightly focus on how particular evidence had been interpreted, or the weight given to different aspects. On the other hand Gater readily admitted he was wholly ignorant of any of the arguments for an infinite universe, or any of the evidence on which these arguments were based. Also, by his own admission, he lacks the mathematical skills to properly assess those arguments or evidence. Worse still, when these deficiencies are pointed out to him he rejects them as being irrelevant and suggests those who think this way are foolish. A position such as that is deserving of pity, but not respect. That means that if Gater hadn't admit his ignorance, he would have received more consideration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 That means that if Gater hadn't admit his ignorance, he would have received more consideration? He would still need to have explained, and provided support for, his belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gater Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Some of you science nerds are truly stupid. Its so sad that you cant comprehend the simple concept of infinity. I suppose its because you believe everything has a beginning and a ending. That's true with most things, but not the universe or time. -2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Just repeating something (with no logic or evidence) doesn't make it true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tar Posted November 8, 2015 Author Share Posted November 8, 2015 Thread, On the infinite universe statement. I agree with Strange that the writer of the OP article may have heard that the universe may be infinite because we don't know that its not, and then mischaracterized this sentiment by stating it like a known fact. There are many things in cosmology that are established conventionally and things are taken "as if" this is true or that is true. There was, in the standard, accepted version of the Big Bang, a period of inflation in which the universe increased in extent in a faster than light manner. The exact mechanisms in play during this time are not specifically defined, and how fast and how far the universe extended during this period is simply not known. No way to get outside the event in a manner consistent with the ability to measure it. It could be 10 times larger than the Hubble sphere, or 1000 or a million billion times as large. Once in this area where only the conception is being challenged, or imagined, it is difficult to have superior information than the next guy, concerning the veracity of any statement of fact related to the status of things that are beyond our ability to check. Regards, TAR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ophiolite Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 That means that if Gater hadn't admit his ignorance, he would have received more consideration? On the contrary. He did not so much admit his ignorance as revel in it and celebrate it. He dismissed out of hand the the "official" view. That view was not dreamed up for a laugh, but was the consequence of the careful consideration of many pieces of evidence and deep thinking by brilliant minds. Yet Gater felt it perfectly fine to dismiss all of this because it made no sense to him. When the foolishness of this position was pointed out to him he dismissed it again. At the risk of being reprimanded by staff it seems to me that that action is profoundly stupid. (Please feel free to report this post.) It is probably a character defect in me, but I can feel only contempt for someone who elects to behave in such a dumb manner. What would have had me applauding Gater would be if he had said "Wow, I wasn't aware of any of these ideas about the geometry of space and the arguments for and against a finite, or infinite universe. I sure have a lot to learn. Fascinating!" He would have recognised his ignorance and be preparing to learn. That is not how he behaved. It is his behaviour I am condemning. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arc Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 (edited) Guilty as charged. My ignorance of most things is astounding in its breadth and depth. There are topics I am wholly unaware of, others of which my understanding is so flimsy it would blow away with the first breath of a penetrating question. My mathematics is less than primitive. I can barely compute a Hohmann transfer orbit without consulting a text book. I don't know if the ulna is in the arm or the leg. I cannot remember what the Krebs cycle is. The list goes on. So, simpleton is a well chosen and accurate description. However, I have noticed two things. I seem to know more and understand more about a wide array of subjects than many people I encounter on a day-to-day basis, even a couple of the members of this forum (though thankfully only a couple). I confess that leaves me feeling slightly smug - arrogant would be an acceptable synonym, so you got that one right also. Strange has kindly provided a link that discusses how the universe might not be infinite. What do you find unacceptable in that discussion? I find your humble arrogance completely unacceptable and acceptable. Damn you, Ophiolite! P.S. Glad you're back! It wasn't the same without you. Edited November 8, 2015 by arc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Some of you science nerds are truly stupid. Its so sad that you cant comprehend the simple concept of infinity. I suppose its because you believe everything has a beginning and a ending. That's true with most things, but not the universe or time. So what is happening in our small region of space where the galaxies are moving away from each other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gater Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 (edited) What does that have to do with this discussion? I remember hearing as a child that man was incapable of comprehending eternity. I didn't know if that was true or not. As an adult I do comprehend eternity - after reading many of the responses on this board I see that most men can not comprehend eternity. Edited November 8, 2015 by Gater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 What does that have to do with this discussion? If all galaxies are moving apart then, after an eternity, there should be no galaxies visible. See also: Olber's Paradox. I remember hearing as a child that man was incapable of comprehending eternity. Sadly, it seems you are incapable of comprehending evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gater Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 lol What evidence? You are truly clueless Strange. Let me attempt 1 last time to enlighten you. 1. The Universe is space and matter in every direction - forever 2. The Universe has always been here - there was no "beginning" 3. What many refer to as the Universe is actually the "observable universe" - a sphere of approx. 30 billion light years across. 4. It generally accepted that the observable universe started about 15 billion years ago with the big bang 5. Galaxies inside created during the Big Bang are still moving apart. Probabilities suggest that since life evolved here that it has evolved an infinite number of times before. I hope this clears things up for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 1. The Universe is space and matter in every direction - forever 2. The Universe has always been here - there was no "beginning" Why do you think anyone should believe you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 What does that have to do with this discussion? I remember hearing as a child that man was incapable of comprehending eternity. I didn't know if that was true or not. As an adult I do comprehend eternity - after reading many of the responses on this board I see that most men can not comprehend eternity. If our region is expanding, why would it expand, if the Universe was already infinite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Also, wouldn't it get terribly crowded around the edges? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gater Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 OMG - you poor simpletons - There are no edges - space does not expand or retract. Strange - if you don't want to believe me - fine - keep your head in the sand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Strange - if you don't want to believe me - fine - keep your head in the sand. I asked WHY anyone should believe you. Why should they? I have an invisible pink unicorn in the garden. Any suggestion that I don't is just stupid. It is obviously and logically true. Jesus its so simple, im amazed at how many "educated" people don't get this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I asked WHY anyone should believe you. Why should they? I have an invisible pink unicorn in the garden. Any suggestion that I don't is just stupid. It is obviously and logically true. Jesus its so simple, im amazed at how many "educated" people don't get this. Look mate. Evidence don't mean nuthin'... it's intuition what matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geordief Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Untuition,surely. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 OMG - you poor simpletons - There are no edges - space does not expand or retract. Strange - if you don't want to believe me - fine - keep your head in the sand. So do you agree or disagree that the galaxies around us are moving apart? Whether or not they are moving through space or space itself is expanding, but are the physical distances increasing causing a redshift effect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gater Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Galaxies are moving - space doesn't expand. -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tar Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) Gator, Have you ever been told the balloon with dots on it model? In that model, the 2D surface of the balloon is standing for the three dimensional space that the galaxies are "drawn" on. When you blow up the balloon, the dots get farther apart, even though the dots are not moving on the surface of the balloon. Now, I am not sure how photons, traveling through expanding space are supposed to react, but standard candles (know type galaxies and super novas) give out characteristic frequencies corresponding to certain electrons in certain elements falling from one understood energy level to another. If certain spectral lines, like a particular hydrogen line are present in the light coming from a distant object, but are measured as longer wavelengths (lower frequencies) we know that object is moving away from us, or we are moving away from it. If, as appears to be the case, the average of all apparent motion of objects at a certain distance (measured by comparative brightness), is away from us, but the same conclusions are draw concerning objects in the opposite direction, we cannot be moving away from the objects in that direction, AND from the objects in the direction 180 degrees diametrically opposed. Thus the conclusion is drawn, that the surface of the balloon is stretching, which is causing the distances between the dots to increase, without the dots moving in reference to the surface. Regards, TAR Gator, To top it off, the light from objects very very far away, so far away that the first light, from the time of the last scattering, is just now getting to us, is red shifted 1000 times into the radio frequencies. And these radio signals are coming in from all directions. We are not speeding away from all points. The good conclusion is that all points are speeding away from us. Since we cannot be at the center of an explosion, the suitable conclusion is that the balloon is being blown up. Regards, TAR Edited November 10, 2015 by tar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 As young Gater is immune to reason or evidence, there doesn't seem much point trying to explain such things to him. He has decided, with the confidence of ignorance, that he is right and everyone else is wrong. It is not even a case of Dunning-Krguer, more "none so blind as those that will not see". He is happy wallowing in ignorance. I would leave him to it. It may be a religious thing. Or just trolling. I neither know nor care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gater Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Strange you arrogant simpleton - Time and space are both infinite - and because that simple concept is beyond your comprehension you lash out at others - I pity you. -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geordief Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Poor Strange. He has to share his term of abuse with Ohiolite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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