7 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

An ant doesn't doesn't give a shit.

How do you know?

Just now, iNow said:

How do you know?

Indeed, all I can say is, they don't appear to care...

17 hours ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

This is going slightly off topic, we are talking about animals in general not insects alone.

I only used insects as an example because you had mentioned a spider and insects.

17 hours ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

Animals could kill out of politics/clans, an example is that chimps may raid neighboring groups and kill individuals, often with coordinated attacks These events can be linked to group related conflicts and not always for territory or hunger. So to some extent yes

Bringing up our closest relatives is not exactly representative of animals in general, especially in the context of my earlier comment about voluntary actions/premeditation.

10 minutes ago, swansont said:

I only used insects as an example because you had mentioned a spider and insects.

From now on if you are comfortable let’s use animals in general if possible for this thread

11 minutes ago, swansont said:

Bringing up our closest relatives is not exactly representative of animals in general, especially in the context of my earlier comment about voluntary actions/premeditation

Chimpanzees fight in clans, which can be viewed as politics since they have a social hierarchy. They are also extremely coordinated in their attacks so it is to some extent premeditation as such guerrilla warfare is very difficult to conduct without planning prior.

47 minutes ago, iNow said:

How do you know?

I second this, how would an ant know?

3 minutes ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

From now on if you are comfortable let’s use animals in general if possible for this thread

Fair enough, from here on, if it walks like a duck and quack's like a duck, let's assume that it's 'duck-like'...

21 hours ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

I second this, how would an ant know?

It doesn't, that's 'probably' why it's not considered sentient by anyone other than Alice, who followed a rabbit down a hole...

I have heard people say that they prefer animals but that would suggest a failing in their social interaction with humans?

Anthropomorphising certain animals like dogs gets tricky for me, are they more loyal, faithful and loving? Than humans?

What does that mean? We cannot ask them and discuss the nature of their loyalty.

Food may equal loyalty, a warm safe house and walkies and that's it.

A lonely person with a dog and not much else I can understand the OP.

Also rats, very sociable animals, interactive, inquisitive and fun.

If that person is not keen on going outside, less people to deal with an ideal pet.

As an add on, if you look at the brain the body ratio chart you can see where 'human' qualities could manifest and make animals more agreeable than humans.

So by qualities I mean, intelligence, sentience, social behaviours including friendship, loyalty and love.

https://images.app.goo.gl/MWTDdREiJ2KEpF119

Oops apologies, one final add on.

People who work with animals as a profession could have this leaning, I am thinking zoologists, anthropologists, ecologists and marine biologists rather than lab workers.

2 hours ago, pinball1970 said:

I have heard people say that they prefer animals but that would suggest a failing in their social interaction with humans?

Anthropomorphising certain animals like dogs gets tricky for me, are they more loyal, faithful and loving? Than humans?

What does that mean? We cannot ask them and discuss the nature of their loyalty.

Food may equal loyalty, a warm safe house and walkies and that's it.

A lonely person with a dog and not much else I can understand the OP.

Also rats, very sociable animals, interactive, inquisitive and fun.

If that person is not keen on going outside, less people to deal with an ideal pet.

As an add on, if you look at the brain the body ratio chart you can see where 'human' qualities could manifest and make animals more agreeable than humans.

So by qualities I mean, intelligence, sentience, social behaviours including friendship, loyalty and love.

https://images.app.goo.gl/MWTDdREiJ2KEpF119

Oops apologies, one final add on.

People who work with animals as a profession could have this leaning, I am thinking zoologists, anthropologists, ecologists and marine biologists rather than lab workers.

Whilst I welcome your impute, this topic is 3 page's of discussion that encompasses all of your point's, and that's why it's customary, here at SFN, to have read the thread before you're properly qualified to comment.

Ok noted, I tried get the gist but did not read all the 2016 posts.

Pretty new to the site and finding my feet.

2 minutes ago, pinball1970 said:

Ok noted, I tried get the gist but did not read all the 2016 posts.

Pretty new to the site and finding my feet.

Welcome and +1

I look foward to a good argument...

I think, that some people like animals more than people, because of their idealization of themselves and others.

And animals don't talk, literally. They don't deal with our ego, which is very fragile. If your cat told you, that you were not right in some situation, what would you do?

2 minutes ago, m_m said:

If your cat told you, that you were not right in some situation, what would you do?

Probably shit myself, it's never spoken before...

What's your point?

And animals don't talk, literally.

They do talk, in their language not ours.

Both in body language and audio.

21 hours ago, dimreepr said:

Probably shit myself, it's never spoken before...

What's your point?

I'll repeat myself, animals don't talk.

20 hours ago, Imagine Everything said:

They do talk, in their language not ours.

Both in body language and audio.

Arguing for the sake of arguing? I'm talking about speech.

9 minutes ago, m_m said:

I'll repeat myself, animals don't talk.

As Wittgenstein suggested, if they could talk we couldn't have a meaningful conversation with them, other than at a superficial mutual understanding, but they can effectively communicate with us at this level already.

You wouldn't try to pet a pit bull if it was growling at you...

So I'll repeat myself, what's your point?

Animal's don't talk, therefore?

Just now, dimreepr said:

Animal's don't talk, therefore?

They don't deal with our Ego.

1 minute ago, m_m said:

They don't deal with our Ego.

My dog deals with my ego, better than I do; dog's are acutely attuned to our moods and are very skilled at appeasing us.

54 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

My dog deals with my ego, better than I do; dog's are acutely attuned to our moods and are very skilled at appeasing us.

There is a fantastic little video on YouTube that was posted on another science site.

A parrot is "singing" along to the owner who is playing, "here comes the sun, " on the guitar.

So first, if I had a parrot that did that I would certainly love it! They look like good friends.

Second they are not talking but they are communicating, whatever it is, it sounds like a happy exchange.

The sounds are not random because the bird finds the pitch (the owner smiles)

https://youtu.be/XPQlMmMDm-A?si=yrncoiMBpJyx4oWC

8 hours ago, m_m said:

Arguing for the sake of arguing? I'm talking about speech.

Arguing for the sake of arguing.. .yes you are m_m.

So am I, try thinking about it more.

Animals talk in their own language. NOT YOURS.

Get yourself a pet and you might understand.

Language comes in all forms...body language, audio language, sign language...

7 hours ago, dimreepr said:

but they can effectively communicate with us at this level already.

Communication is language.....

Edited May 25May 25 by Imagine Everything

On 5/24/2025 at 4:52 AM, m_m said:

And animals don't talk, literally.

Animals present various forms of communication, everything counts including but not limited to chemical signals, reactions to physical stimuli, and audio based communication. Please stop trying to argue for the sake of nothing

On 5/24/2025 at 6:05 AM, Imagine Everything said:

And animals don't talk, literally

Animals can communicate via sound, that is talking in some sense

53 minutes ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

  On 5/24/2025 at 12:52 PM, m_m said:

And animals don't talk, literally.

  On 5/24/2025 at 2:05 PM, Imagine Everything said:

And animals don't talk, literally

Animals can communicate via sound, that is talking in some sense

I didn't say that, I quoted it, try reading through before posting your dim witted, unthought out answers.

You even quoted the person who DID say it..... m_m

I'm not going to reply to anything else you say, you seem to just want attention anyway you can get it.

Edited May 25May 25 by Imagine Everything

17 minutes ago, Imagine Everything said:

I didn't say that, I quoted it, try reading through before posting your dim witted, unthought out answers.

You even quoted the person who DID say it..... m_m

I'm not going to reply to anything else you say, you seem to just want attention anyway you can get it.

Animals have a form of communication which can be based audio-logically. Try to understand my point instead of antagonizing me, I was not hostile in this thread at all. Kindly piss off.

19 minutes ago, Imagine Everything said:

I'm not going to reply to anything else you say, you seem to just want attention anyway you can get it.

I am extremely sorry, I forgot for a moment you are not the center of the known universe. My apologies.

On 5/24/2025 at 4:57 AM, dimreepr said:

Probably shit myself, it's never spoken before...

What's your point?

🤣

On 5/24/2025 at 6:05 AM, Imagine Everything said:

And animals don't talk, literally.

They do talk, in their language not ours.

Both in body language and audio.

You just repeated it here, you didn’t quote anything. Please, with all due respect, never call anyones response “dimwitted” again, friendly fire is typically avoided

1 hour ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

Please stop trying to argue for the sake of nothing

1 hour ago, Imagine Everything said:

I didn't say that, I quoted it, try reading through before posting your dim witted, unthought out answers.

Moderator Note

Folks, we need to remove the personal attacks, and focus on attacking ideas you find shaky or invalid. Let's stop assuming we know what motivates someone else to post.

2 hours ago, Imagine Everything said:

I didn't say that, I quoted it, try reading through before posting your dim witted, unthought out answers.

Moderator Note

It needs to be noted that, no, you did not quote it, in the context of online discussion. You may have copied it, but did not use the quote function or place it quotation marks, or italicize it - anything that would indicate (especially as a short, unremarkable sentence) that it was not something coming from you.

Then you compounded your error by lashing out.

Hmmm...ok, well it would seem the quote function didn't work when I replied before.

But ok, np. I'm not here to disrespect any of you folks here and sohan/m_m seem to have annoyed me I guess. I don't like people like them.

My apologies for going off topic. I don't like or respect Sohan / m_m at all. And that's me being nice.

I didn't join this forum to end up in this position but also I will not put up with people like this.

So, thank you @Phi for All for allowing me to post an idea I had, ( and thank you very much @studiot @Mordred @swansont for helping me learn) and I leave the door open to you very clever and far more understanding/compassionate than me science, mathematician folks to tell me through a private message if you still want me here.

What people do, is as important as what people don't do.

The unseen is as important as the seen. More pairs... My life is riddled with pairs, doubles, opposites etc. I see the universe this way.

I will not post again unless I am pm'd, that isn't a request and I do not expect a pm. I am a nobody of nobodies. Isolation seems to be married to me for some reason, always has, always will I guess.

If this were a normal forum, I wouldn't hold back about those two but I respect you other folks (not sohan or m_m) and I do not wish to disrespect you the way sohan or m_m have in my view.

My apologies to the op, I didn't intend or mean to change direction of your thread. It's extremely difficult to account for the unforseeable future or the people that come into it.

@ the moderators, perhaps you could look into why the quote function didn't seem to work and future help others who may also run into this problem.

Thank you to the people that have helped me learn and advance my idea, you know who you are. And I am very grateful.

Lastly, information is passed between 2 receivers, however that information is produced I believe.

Back on topic,

Information is communicated. Communication is language.

It is up to us or other intelligent life forms to understand or discover it if we want to, in my opinion.

Edited May 25May 25 by Imagine Everything