Observations : indirectly leading to a possible insight into the Nature of Gravity.

[Strange]

Quite what mechanism is at work to bring about this incredible ' levelness' may reveal these ' aspects' that give me the hint that ' something is 'there ' in the nature of this phenomenon .

 

Shakes head sadly and wanders off despairing for humanity...

[Ophiolite]

I think one of the aspects of this incredible aspect of gravity ,in its connection with water is.

 

Gravity makes water incredibly level

 

Quite what mechanism is at work to bring about this incredible ' levelness' may reveal these ' aspects' that give me the hint that ' something is 'there ' in the nature of this phenomenon .

 

Mike

You are creating mystery where none exists. In a gravitational field fluids at different heights experience different pressures. In a fluid that fluid will move from high pressure to low pressure to eliminate the pressure difference. I believe I pointed this out to you earlier.

 

So any irregularities in a water surface are necessarily smoothed out, making the water surface "incredibly level". Except there is nothing remotely incredible about it. It is physics so simple that even a geologist can understand it.

 

Can I recommend you take an Open University course or two and you won't make such silly statements in future?

[swansont]

Water is level because it's an equipotential. That's how nature behaves.

 

The water is free to flow, to first order anyway (until you can't ignore surface tension). If it wasn't level, there would be a lateral force on it, which will only go away when it's level. Like a feedback loop. So it ends up level.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Water is level because it's an equipotential. That's how nature behaves.

The water is free to flow, to first order anyway (until you can't ignore surface tension). If it wasn't level, there would be a lateral force on it, which will only go away when it's level. Like a feedback loop. So it ends up level.

Yes! You Are correct as illustrated in post # 24 , where a perfectly flat collection of seawater on the beach has a minute leak point, and water flows even with the slightest of ' head of water ' . The rest remains perfectly flat .

 

I appreciate a few of you are finding this daily occurrence as ( trivial ) . But I am trying to say we are " seeing " or " witnessing the phenomenon of gravity naked " .

True, it is an effect , but unlike air currents , sound waves , radio waves and a host of phenomenons we have investigated scientifically over centuries to understand in picture , in models , oscilloscopes or other detectors .

 

Here we can see "practically Naked , " " gravity " with no instrument , no model . Raw phenomenon .

 

But can it give us any insight as to its ' nature' . Unlike fire it is quite benign ( unless of course , you are drowning ) .

 

O.k. I take your point of equipotential . I am thus imagining a line coming out from the centre of the earth crossing the sand on the beach and 4 inches higher crossing the surface water , with a gravitational potential ( no doubt given by one of the physics formulae) . I then imagine another line coming out from the centre of the earth a little to the left or right and as it penetrates the sand and finally the surface of the water , it has or maintains exactly the same gravitational potential . I could presumably draw a line on a piece of paper dipped into the water with the two points . And it would perfectly coincide with the level of the water . If I were to draw a similar parallel line just below the surface . It would I presume read a fraction less. ( still level ) .

 

Ok I can build up a 3d lattice . Now the question is , how did that set of identical values GET THERE?

Is it an ambient field , a neighbour contact relayed ? Is it some distortion in Space Time as suggested by Einstein's General theory of relativity ? Or WHAT ? If I scrape around in the sand or water looking for it . What will I find . If I use cleverer and more clever devices to look smaller and smaller . With what device will I look with to check out this potential . What will I find if i probe deeper and deeper in smallness , looking for the evidence of this potential . ( like a volt or amp, in electronics , will I ever find the equivalent of a charge , or a flow of charges ? ) if I could find something , then maybe I could feel I am approaching , this the nature of Gravity . That lays so level . Yet with a persistent breeze can build up to be a deep ocean sea . Tell me ?

Edited November 1, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[MigL]

Mike, just like you can throw a ball in the air until gravity overcomes the acceleration you gave it, and it falls back down, so do the water waves rise and fall in response to the energy imparted by all the factors that Ophiolite mentions in post #18.

Without all those factors there would be no waves and water would be smooth ( sea level exactly the same all over the world ( considering deviation from spherical due to rotation ).

 

Much more interesting is the Welland Canal clip.

Locks 1, 2 and 3 are just a stone's throw away from where I live, and 4, 5, 6 and 7 are close to the University I attended.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Mike, just like you can throw a ball in the air until gravity overcomes the acceleration you gave it, and it falls back down, so do the water waves rise and fall in response to the energy imparted by all the factors that Ophiolite mentions in post #18.

Without all those factors there would be no waves and water would be smooth ( sea level exactly the same all over the world ( considering deviation from spherical due to rotation ).

 

Much more interesting is the Welland Canal clip.

Locks 1, 2 and 3 are just a stone's throw away from where I live, and 4, 5, 6 and 7 are close to the University I attended.

Yes , I take your points. But I would still want to know if there is anything to be inspiring an insight here , on the visually impressive nature of flat water induced by gravity , and thus the nature of gravity itself.

 

Left over from school days , one has the picture of any Mass having a centre of gravity , and this single pull with an arrow down towards earth centre. Nowadays with a distributed field emanating from the huge mass of the earth. This draws me to Richard Feyneman lectures , where in referring to a large Shoal of fish he says " there is no field , no miraculous field telling all the fish to turn at once and make those beautiful images. The most there is is the NEIGHBOUR fish . The outside fish sees its neighbour fish move off sideways , so it instantly ( slight delay) moves to be with its neighbour. And thus the amazing display of a Shoal . "

 

Thus I am asking , is each individual molecule of water responding to ( a ) a field of gravity or (b) it's neighbour molecule. Or maybe a bit of both or something different ? Because something akin to those beautiful Shoal's of fish is ,I suspect , afoot?

 

See wikepedia pictures and animations of shoals ( shoaling ) link :- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoaling_and_schooling

 

 

Mike

Edited November 2, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

The effect of the earth on the drops of water on a macro scale wins. At a small scale, where surface tension comes into play, the interaction between molecules can't be ignored, but we're looking at a macro scale.

[Strange]

Yes , I take your points. But I would still want to know if there is anything to be inspiring an insight here , on the visually impressive nature of flat water induced by gravity , and thus the nature of gravity itself.

 

Well, it tells you that gravity is pretty uniform. Although variations in the level could perhaps be used to map variations in the Earth's gravitational field. And it tells you that water is a fluid (is that an inspiring insight? I'm not sure).

 

 

Thus I am asking , is each individual molecule of water responding to ( a ) a field of gravity or (b) it's neighbour molecule.

 

Bot. Gravity pulls it down and creates the flat surface. The molecules are also bound to each other, which is what makes water a liquid rather than a gas.

 

 

Because something akin to those beautiful Shoal's of fish is ,I suspect , afoot?

 

I fail to see any relevance. Unless you have seen water flying around like a school of fish?

[swansont]

The phenomenon is similar to why charges will spread out on a conducting sphere — it minimizes the energy. In classical systems, an energy gradient means there is a force, and that force moves the system towards minimum energy. It's completely independent of what kind of the force it is, so there is nothing to learn about the nature of the particular force by observing that it follows the rule that everything follows.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

The phenomenon is similar to why charges will spread out on a conducting sphere it minimizes the energy. In classical systems, an energy gradient means there is a force, and that force moves the system towards minimum energy. It's completely independent of what kind of the force it is, so there is nothing to learn about the nature of the particular force by observing that it follows the rule that everything follows.

 

Except , that, if what you say is correct , which I have every reason to believe you are right, then :-

 

This would indicate the Force of Gravity is similar in make up to the other forces , yet:-

 

If I have understood things correctly , the current problem with unifying quantum particles and gravity , it is almost impossible to do so.

 

If what you say is correct, then this in turn could help with the unifying of gravity with the other forces ? Is that not , going to make that so?

 

Mike

Edited November 2, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

Except , that, if what you say is correct , which I have every reason to believe you are right, then :-

 

This would indicate the Force of Gravity is similar in make up to the other forces , yet:-

 

If I have understood things correctly , the current problem with unifying quantum particles and gravity , it is almost impossible to do so.

 

If what you say is correct, then this in turn could help with the unifying of gravity with the other forces ? Is that not , going to make that so?

 

Mike

 

 

No, all that it means is that a force is a force, of course, of course. IOW, acceleration owing to gravity is not distinguishable from any other kind of acceleration, which is part of the theory of General Relativity. And accelerations arise from forces.

 

Put another way, you can't tell the difference between an acceleration cause by gravity and an acceleration caused by other means.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

No, all that it means is that a force is a force, of course, of course. IOW, acceleration owing to gravity is not distinguishable from any other kind of acceleration, which is part of the theory of General Relativity. And accelerations arise from forces.

 

Put another way, you can't tell the difference between an acceleration cause by gravity and an acceleration caused by other means.

Does that mean the force is derived in a similar way ? Say +and - electrical charges ATTRACT and would free fall or accelerate toward each other if there was nothing stopping them doing so .

 

If there is a similarity in the FORCE, and a similarity in the ACCELERATION , might that not indicate there may be , ( ever so just be ) other similarities of Gravity and Electrical attraction?

 

 

Bot. Gravity pulls it down and creates the flat surface. The molecules are also bound to each other, which is what makes water a liquid rather than a gas.

 

 

 

But is the gravitational force acting on one atomic particle, one atom , one molecule as a whole , OR on a reasonable mass of water ?

 

Mike

Edited November 2, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Strange]

But is the gravitational force acting on one atomic particle, one atom , one molecule as a whole , OR on a reasonable mass of water ?

 

Yes.

[swansont]

Does that mean the force is derived in a similar way ? Say +and - electrical charges ATTRACT and would free fall or accelerate toward each other if there was nothing stopping them doing so .

 

If there is a similarity in the FORCE, and a similarity in the ACCELERATION , might that not indicate there may be , ( ever so just be ) other similarities of Gravity and Electrical attraction?

 

 

But is the gravitational force acting on one atomic particle, one atom , one molecule as a whole , OR on a reasonable mass of water ?

 

Mike

 

 

F=ma. It doesn't matter what the force is.

[Sensei]

Does that mean the force is derived in a similar way ? Say +and - electrical charges ATTRACT and would free fall or accelerate toward each other if there was nothing stopping them doing so .

 

If there is a similarity in the FORCE, and a similarity in the ACCELERATION , might that not indicate there may be , ( ever so just be ) other similarities of Gravity and Electrical attraction?

Read how we calculate e, elementary charge, 1.602176565*10^-19 Coulombs, in oil drop experiment:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_drop_experiment

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Read how we calculate e, elementary charge, 1.602176565*10^-19 Coulombs, in oil drop experiment:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_drop_experiment

Very , full of interesting happenings surrounding the early experiments. ( by Millikan ) Even up to quite recently .

Whether isolating individual electrons , is going to help me fathom the interaction of gravity with water , I do not know .

I guess water molecules are likely to be more influenced , than individual electrons , however that might not be so.

 

 

Perhaps looking at the water molecule is relevant but do the electrons have relevance say for bonding with sodium and chlorine (salt in salt water ) p

 

 

Seawater

 

Although the sea is not level at the large scale , this is not really noticed on a human scale . However the following link is inserted for the large scale variations :- http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/earth-atmospheric-and-planetary-sciences/12-808-introduction-to-observational-physical-oceanography-fall-2004/lecture-notes/course_notes_3b.pdf

 

 

If however if we look at the bonding going on in water , we note the ' electrons ' take a large role . This is both in the H2O water molecule itself , but also in molecule to molecule interaction involving electrons .

 

Link :- http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/water_hydrogen_bonding.html

 

With gravity having its own interaction with these molecules perhaps we are zooming in ,on an area that is not based on a Frictional environment . Which could explain why I am experiencing some of the phenomenon specified in the original post #1 a bit like internal micro-mini trampoline ?

 

So , is what I am looking for , this hidden interplay between Gravity and Bonding . Is this the hidden machinery behind my five phenomenon .

 

1) The rising water in the children's swimming pool ;

2) Deep ocean waves, ; 3) Shore line swell;

4) Time Lapse views of perfectly LEVEL SEA WATER of ships in harbour ;

5) The Extra ordinary long time of Rocking crockery ;

 

I have had a demonstrable, first hand glimpse and experience of the inner workings of molecular bonding and electron bounce . ( I think ? )

 

 

Mike

Edited November 3, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Ophiolite]

Mike, you leave me bemused. You are able to take unrelated material, misinterpret it and reassemble it in a complex and opaque argument that seeks to explain what is already well understood and more than adequately accounted for by a wholly different and generally simpler hypothesis or theory.

 

I am at a loss as to why you do this. If you were not such a charming, well-meaning chap, I suspect you might have been run off from the forum some time ago.

 

I mention this in the forlorn hope that you might stop it and replace it with a more constructive approach to science that absorbs rather than expounds.

[swansont]

So , is what I am looking for , this hidden interplay between Gravity and Bonding . Is this the hidden machinery behind my five phenomenon .

 

1) The rising water in the children's swimming pool ;

2) Deep ocean waves, ; 3) Shore line swell;

4) Time Lapse views of perfectly LEVEL SEA WATER of ships in harbour ;

5) The Extra ordinary long time of Rocking crockery ;

 

What's so hidden about these phenomena? e.g. The water in a pool rises because you displace it. That was revealed by Archimedes ages ago. That's not something thats generally thought to be mysterious or have any hidden interplay.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

What's so hidden about these phenomena? e.g. The water in a pool rises because you displace it. That was revealed by Archimedes ages ago. That's not something thats generally thought to be mysterious or have any hidden interplay.

I think so, because I am one straight link , or it is there for anybody to touch by touching still water.

 

They,or we , are touching the interaction of the force of gravity through those molecular Springy bonds.

 

When we touch solids, we have all the irregularity, friction etc , with the sea we are either seeing this amazing balance. ( flat surface ) or we can sit in the water , put our hand on the surface Push down rhythmically and feel the fight in action between the force of gravity and the restoration by the various molecular bonds in sea water .

 

Mike

Edited November 4, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

I don't see anything particularly amazing (i.e. mystifying) about the balance. That's how feedback works. It isn't something unexpected if you're familiar with the processes.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

I don't see anything particularly amazing (i.e. mystifying) about the balance. That's how feedback works. It isn't something unexpected if you're familiar with the processes.

I do not think that I have brought up any idea of ( magic or mysterious ) . I do think there is something hidden in the nature of sea water ( or any body of water for that matter , ) and it's reaction with Gravity. But not so hidden that we can not , touch , see, and play with its attraction with Gravity.

 

With many of the other forces, our contact is on a large scale and though various layers of matter, indirect and often full of friction and resistance) With sea water, we can sit in the sea at a beach , stand in the water and play with the water. And in so doing we are feeling gravity through those bonding mechanisms at an atomic/ molecular level . ( or for that matter the release from Gravity, ) We can lower ourselves completely and float on a layer of molecular bonds , and know that our loss of weight is due to the volume of water we are displacing. ( as Archimedes discovered) although he got the idea right and the sums right , he did not have 20th century science with knowledge of molecular/ atomic bonds .

 

I think this buoyancy has assisted in the development of life over time . Perhaps this is why only Europa was targeted by Arthur C Clark as the likely other place likely to have life ,in the Solar System .

 

I will try and get some more information, about this interface between water and Gravity and its nature and behaviour. I do not think it is sufficient to perceive this phenomenon as " just a Force , like any other force" , the delicate way, yet strong way , that it interfaces with Gravity , I would say is unique to water? Yet may give us an insight to other Phenomenon.

 

Mike

Edited November 5, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

I do not think that I have brought up any idea of ( magic or mysterious ) . I do think there is something hidden in the nature of sea water ( or any body of water for that matter , ) and it's reaction with Gravity. But not so hidden that we can not , touch , see, and play with its attraction with Gravity.

 

 

That's contrary to another part of General Relativity. Gravitational and inertial mass is the same thing, which means that mass is mass. There's no difference between water and anything else in terms of gravitational effects.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

That's contrary to another part of General Relativity. Gravitational and inertial mass is the same thing, which means that mass is mass. There's no difference between water and anything else in terms of gravitational effects.

.

Well I could ask then , do the other forces pervade seawater / water generally , and have an effect as 'well' ( responsive , effective , unaffected by friction ,etc ) as Gravity? ( it's as if gravity gets in there at the right place ! ) how does it compare say with :-

 

Magnetism, ? Electric Charge ? ( or electromagnetism ) . The strong force? The weak force ?

 

Or is gravity limited to size of object ?

 

Does gravity have any effect on the electrons attached to a nucleus? Or does its effect stop at the molecular level/ atomic level? Does gravity affect massless particles like photons ? How about neutrinos?

 

I am wondering if gravity is the most pervasive, universal of all forces ? Or does it have its limitations ?

 

Mike

Edited November 5, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

Gravity affects everything. It's merely a matter of degree.

 

Other forces affect seawater. We wouldn't have nuclei and thus no seawater if the strong force weren't acting, for example. We have molecules, so we know electromagnetism is there. And potassium (K-40) is still going to beta decay, so the weak force is there.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Gravity affects everything. It's merely a matter of degree.

 

Other forces affect seawater. We wouldn't have nuclei and thus no seawater if the strong force weren't acting, for example. We have molecules, so we know electromagnetism is there. And potassium (K-40) is still going to beta decay, so the weak force is there.

.

 

Firstly we need to picture symbolically sea water in a grid matrix only symbolically as separate particles ( hydrogen twice oxygen once , possibly electrons in association with a nucleus of one proton , possibly sodium as a molecule , possibly chlorine as a molecule . The following is merely a symbol of these possible combinations . ( for illustration and discussion purposes) .

See

fig 0.

 

If we have the force of gravity going straight upwards/downwards , through , and interacting downwards with ALL particles small and large ,including electrons . Then any interaction with the water/ seawater would be horizontally in still waters. See fig 1

Now with some particles pushed downward , would drag the joining particles downward . See fig 2

Bouncing back with the water raising above the mean sea level . Then the particles would drag the linking particle upward see fig 3 .

 

Fig 1

 

Fig 2

 

Fig 3

 

From these picture diagrams we can see how waves form on the sea .

 

 

It is interesting to note that it is very likely that up and down perturbations of the matrix ( as in likely wave motion , will cause restoration pressure to apply mainly across the matrix in a lateral fashion . Bringing about a movement toward levelness . Which was a subject of the discussion.

 

All the build up of waves mean that in the high seas 6 metre waves can hold all that perturbed Gravity .

 

 

Having dismissed the word 'magic ' from our discussion. It's interesting the English series on TV called 'Coast ' . Which is a series visiting the entire coast of the U.K. TONIGHT was reviewing our historic desire to go down to the coast and spend our holiday on the beach by the sea . Saying quote " we all seem to recognise a certain " MAGIC " about the sea at the coast . " unquote .

 

Mike

Edited November 6, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos