SNAKES!!!!!

[dimreepr]

The intensity of response is surely dependant on the strength of the lesson and given the propensity (it would seem) in modern society to exaggerate such fears to ridiculous proportions, as a sort of one-upmanship and the amount of exposure through media to such images, could very well be responsible for such intense emotional reactions in the general populace.

[zapatos]

The intensity of response is surely dependant on the strength of the lesson and given the propensity (it would seem) in modern society to exaggerate such fears to ridiculous proportions, as a sort of one-upmanship and the amount of exposure through media to such images, could very well be responsible for such intense emotional reactions in the general populace.

Not that I ever remember getting a lesson to be afraid of snakes, but even if I did, why doesn't my very clear understanding and strong belief in the fact that black snakes are in no way harmful to me, reduce the intensity of my response?

[dimreepr]

I have absolutely no doubt of your intellectual understanding, zapatos, having read many of your posts, however, we all know the emotional response often supersedes the intellectual. My memory of the lesson, I received, is particularly clear because of an emotional detachment with my mother; consequently, every positive memory with her is exaggerated emotionally which enables a particularly strong memory of the times when we did have a connection. In less exaggerated circumstances maybe it’s easy to forget from where our lessons are learnt.

Edited August 8, 2013 by dimreepr

[arc]

Not that I ever remember getting a lesson to be afraid of snakes, but even if I did, why doesn't my very clear understanding and strong belief in the fact that black snakes are in no way harmful to me, reduce the intensity of my response?

I feel zapatos has a convincing innate response to snakes. No apparent childhood trauma associated to them or bias from over cautious adults.

 

I am trying to remember the context of the study that involved primate exposure to the rubber snake. It seems to me it was at a primate research facility where the primates were born in captivity with no prior exposure to snakes. I would like to see it again but it was probably 15 or 20 years ago, likely a NOVA or NAT. GEO. production. So, being reliant on my bad memory I will regard it as unreliable info.

 

But this is interesting;

http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatreptileblog/2009/12/09/snake-and-spider-fears-and-phobias-instinctive-or-learned/

So, based on my experiences, I leaned toward a learning-based explanation. However, recent work at UC Davis has revealed a possible evolutionary explanation to snake aversion among monkeys and, it is theorized, humans.

Fossil and DNA evidence indicates that large snakes may have been among the first serious predators of modern mammals, and were possibly the driving force behind the development of keen eyesight in Primates. The evolution of the Primate vision system seems linked very closely to fear and vigilance receptors in the brain. As Primates became better at spotting snakes, snakes developed more effective camouflage, and so on.

On Madagascar, where large snakes are absent, Primates (lemurs) have not developed the excellent vision possessed by their relatives on mainland Africa.

Most primates do indeed react with “instinctive” fear upon seeing a snake for the first time. However, I have noticed that a great many creatures, ranging from rodents to elephants, treat novel objects with caution, however harmless they might be.

[Externet]

The fear of snakes has to be

-Because they are deadly,

-They have camouflage,

-They lurk,

-They are quick

-And the risk of the time needed to identify if deadly (if you can tell) exposes you more to death.

The sum makes the high level fear.

 

If none was poisonous they would be not feared more than a lizard.

[overtone]

The fear of snakes is far out of proportion - both in ubiquity and in intensity - to the opportunities for operant conditioning available in my area.

 

Around here essentially no snakes are dangerous, none are larger than about four feet long, none are fast, none are aggressive. Children around here seldom encounter snakes while in the company of adults. Children do not acquire such fears about other animals or machines or the like that are far more dangerous and the source of far more numerous and tense and negative adult mediated encounters.

 

The operant conditioning hypothesis involves assumptions the evidence does not seem to support.

[dimreepr]

This quote from Clara Moskowitz, in her book ‘Why we fear snakes’, for me, is at the heart of this discussion.

“‘While babies and very young children do not usually fear snakes, they are unusually skilled at detecting them and show a predisposition to learn to fear snakes if they have bad experiences or even if they are exposed to negative portrayals of them in the media, the scientists found.’”

[doG]

 

This may be an original instinct still inhabiting our subconscious manifesting its control.

Maybe, but I think not.

 

I routinely take out snakes, tarantulas and scorpions for children visiting a local pet store that I patronize. Most, if not all, small children are enthusiastic to get up close and many ask if they can pet the animal. They exhibit a natural curiosity free of fear. It seems the older people are, the larger the percentage are that I see fear and anxiety when I do this. For me I see this is evidence that it is a learned fear, not one they are born with. I suspect those that are afraid either have hand-me-down fears from their parents telling them to fear these animals or that they have been taunted with these animals in a terroristic manner. I'm sure it doesn't help when people see movies that depict a tarantula or snake devouring some mexican village.

It feels like a fear of snakes is built into me. I don't fear any other animals like that.

 

Were either or both of your parents afraid of snakes? Many parents that are afraid of them condition their children to be afraid of them as well. Do you remember a time when you were not as fearful of them as you are now?

[zapatos]

Were either or both of your parents afraid of snakes? Many parents that are afraid of them condition their children to be afraid of them as well. Do you remember a time when you were not as fearful of them as you are now?

I don't recall my parents being particularly afraid of snakes. My sister used to own a couple of snakes when she was living with my parents but I had moved out by then. I don't recall being as fearful of them when I was younger as I am now, but I never liked them.

 

Much to the surprise of anyone who knows me I let both my kids keep snakes in aquariums in their rooms. I mean, why not? One was a baby corn snake and the other was some type of boa. And on occasion when they were handling them I would ask to hold them too. I was a little nervous taking them but it would wrap around my wrist and just look around.

 

THEN, it would aim its little head at me and slowly move toward my face. HOLY CRAP! I really had to hold back my impulse to throw it on the ground to get it away from me. One of the kids would jump up and take it from me and I'd be really shook up for about 10 minutes. It gives me the heebie jeebies just typing it now.

 

I have no other irrational fears. I took on two pit bulls once that were attacking a puppy and while my adrenaline was up I wasn't terribly frightened. I'll squish spiders, and I watched the doctor do a c section on my wife.

 

It seems really weird to me that snakes cause such a reaction in me. I can logically tell m self there is nothing to fear, and I can get myself to hold one on occasion (even though I'm ill at ease), but if it does ANYTHING that seems 'snake like' while I'm holding it, I just about lose it.

[doG]

THEN, it would aim its little head at me and slowly move toward my face. HOLY CRAP! I really had to hold back my impulse to throw it on the ground to get it away from me. One of the kids would jump up and take it from me and I'd be really shook up for about 10 minutes. It gives me the heebie jeebies just typing it now.

 

One thing to remember about snakes is that they, like sharks, have no limbs to explore things with so they will use their mouth for that. In these cases their bite is not intended as aggression or an attempt to feed but an attempt to explore out of curiosity. I had a 12' python bite my shoulder one day and then she turned loose immediately on realizing what I was. This can be painful with large snakes but it is mostly just a nuisance with small ones.

[Moontanman]

Really interesting to read peoples take on snakes, I love them, I have never been afraid even when a cottonmouth chased me repeatedly. I once had a snake that would come to me when called, I demonstrated it many times to amazed and sometimes frightened people. I could have someone release the snake across the room or even in another room and i would sit down and tap the floor and the snake would come to me and coil up in my lap, it was a 10 foot red tailed boa I raised from a hatchling. In the interest of total disclosure it would bite me too if I thwarted it's desire to chase squirrels up trees... it could bite quite hard and left bloody wounds if I trifled with it too much....

 

The last snake I had was a scarlet king snake, I had it for ten years, it wouldn't bite me but it would bite other people....

BTW Zapatos, the snake was probably trying to get a good smell of your breath when it looked at you in the face, it's how they sense the world... My boa would come to within an inch or less to flick it's tongue over my lips and nose...

[arc]

Maybe, but I think not.

 

I routinely take out snakes, tarantulas and scorpions for children visiting a local pet store that I patronize. Most, if not all, small children are enthusiastic to get up close and many ask if they can pet the animal. They exhibit a natural curiosity free of fear. It seems the older people are, the larger the percentage are that I see fear and anxiety when I do this. For me I see this is evidence that it is a learned fear, not one they are born with. I suspect those that are afraid either have hand-me-down fears from their parents telling them to fear these animals or that they have been taunted with these animals in a terroristic manner. I'm sure it doesn't help when people see movies that depict a tarantula or snake devouring some mexican village.

 

I too have seen children respond calmly to snakes and tarantulas, and almost all would later be afraid of a substantially smaller "wild" spider on their bedroom wall. They can and will differentiate between a pet the size of your fist and the predator the size of a pea. Children may have a sense of safety in numbers and even respond from the trust they give to an adult. But it may not be true instinct operating until they are alone and possibly surprised by a free range spider in their cellar or a harmless Garter snake that moves suddenly in the grass between their feet.

 

The context of the encounter and the source of the predator is central to the respondents actions.

 

This may be a simple reaction to things that bite or sting which all people show a universal desire to avoid. But what is perceived as a predator in its natural environment should illicit a substantial fear response. To be a swimmer circled by a shark or a hiker chased by a grizzly should instill a memory and fear to last a lifetime and induce many post traumatic stress reactions if ever exposed to a stimulus. Do people have similar post traumatic reactions to snakes. This substantial universal fear of snakes would lead one to expect a preceding traumatic experience involving a snake, which in reality most people have had none or at the very least a benign encounter. Which leads one to wonder why a Garter snake can illicit in some the same fear response as a grizzly. Could it be an innate fear of a predator?

Edited August 11, 2013 by arc

[doG]

 

...and almost all would later be afraid of a substantially smaller "wild" spider on their bedroom wall. They can and will differentiate between a pet the size of your fist and the predator the size of a pea.

That's not been my experience. I frequently relocate animals like these I see in public. I can pick up a small spider I see walking across the floor in a public place like a restaurant and a noticeable percentage of adults will clear a path for me while yound children will want a closer look. My own lack of fear in picking up these animals with my hands may play some role in the children's reaction but it does nothing for the adults nearby that are afraid of them.

[arc]

That's not been my experience. I frequently relocate animals like these I see in public. I can pick up a small spider I see walking across the floor in a public place like a restaurant and a noticeable percentage of adults will clear a path for me while yound children will want a closer look. My own lack of fear in picking up these animals with my hands may play some role in the children's reaction but it does nothing for the adults nearby that are afraid of them.

 

In a context of our earliest ancestors, this could be viewed as the adult's having an innate caution that is not susceptible to an overriding by another more foolish adult. The wisdom of caution has played a decisive role in our ancestor survival. The young have been vulnerable throughout mankind's history, your example only reaffirms why high birth rates were important to the survival of our species.

[overtone]

 

 

To be a swimmer circled by a shark or a hiker chased by a grizzly should instill a memory and fear to last a lifetime and induce many post traumatic stress reactions if ever exposed to a stimulus.

Which brings up a key fact - it doesn't, as a rule. Real predators and real threats and real attacks and actual trauma from bears, dogs, sharks, cats, squirrels (yes, it happens), skunks, raccoons, electrical wires, power tools, lightening strikes, windstorms, fish, falling tree limbs, car accidents, and so forth and so on do not normally create a lifetime of the kinds of over the top stress reactions we get - normally, commonly, routinely - from people who have had nothing but the most calm and benign encounters (or even no encounter at all) with snakes.

 

Fears created solely by operant conditioning encounters normally fade over time if not reinforced. Fear of snakes often increases over time, regardless of further experience.

 

Even people who have been charged by bears do not often or normally suffer a lifetime of increasingly extreme stress reactions to the mere sight of large furry animals. Meanwhile. very few of the people who suffer such reactions to snakes have had anything like an actually threatening encounter.

 

I know people who have been bit by fish, hit in the face by jumping fish, become ill after eating bad fish, been badly startled by bumping into large fish under water, had fish swim up to their vulnerable toes as if about to strike, had traumatic experiences getting the hook out of a fish's mouth or stomach, seen horror films about piranha and sharks, and so forth. I have never met anyone who hyperventilates with a racing heartbeat, breaks out in a cold sweat, or involuntarily flinches and retreats, at the approach of a pet goldfish in an aquarium, or even the prospect of sitting next to a koi pond with uncontrolled and "wild" fish of some size clearly visible just a few feet away. If they are reluctant to go out in a canoe, it's not because they are afraid of the fish hidden all around their boat.

 

Fear of snakes just appears to be out of all proportion to visible operant conditioning.

[Moontanman]

Fear of snakes just appears to be out of all proportion to visible operant conditioning.

 

 

I have to agree, I know people who will run out of the room if they see a snake on TV and they have never seen one in person. I never felt afraid of snakes even though I was brought up by people who constantly preached that snakes were the embodiment of supernatural evil...

[dimreepr]

 

Which brings up a key fact - it doesn't, as a rule. Real predators and real threats and real attacks and actual trauma from bears, dogs, sharks, cats, squirrels (yes, it happens), skunks, raccoons, electrical wires, power tools, lightening strikes, windstorms, fish, falling tree limbs, car accidents, and so forth and so on do not normally create a lifetime of the kinds of over the top stress reactions we get - normally, commonly, routinely - from people who have had nothing but the most calm and benign encounters (or even no encounter at all) with snakes.

 

Fears created solely by operant conditioning encounters normally fade over time if not reinforced. Fear of snakes often increases over time, regardless of further experience.

 

Even people who have been charged by bears do not often or normally suffer a lifetime of increasingly extreme stress reactions to the mere sight of large furry animals. Meanwhile. very few of the people who suffer such reactions to snakes have had anything like an actually threatening encounter.

 

I know people who have been bit by fish, hit in the face by jumping fish, become ill after eating bad fish, been badly startled by bumping into large fish under water, had fish swim up to their vulnerable toes as if about to strike, had traumatic experiences getting the hook out of a fish's mouth or stomach, seen horror films about piranha and sharks, and so forth. I have never met anyone who hyperventilates with a racing heartbeat, breaks out in a cold sweat, or involuntarily flinches and retreats, at the approach of a pet goldfish in an aquarium, or even the prospect of sitting next to a koi pond with uncontrolled and "wild" fish of some size clearly visible just a few feet away. If they are reluctant to go out in a canoe, it's not because they are afraid of the fish hidden all around their boat.

 

Fear of snakes just appears to be out of all proportion to visible operant conditioning.

 

 

The fear of snakes, in my peer group, range from no fear to a, full on, phobia and all points in-between. Some people seem predisposed to develop phobias about all sorts of things often stemming from one incident. If the fear of snakes is a result of evolutionary pressures then why do we not have equal, if not, more fearful reactions to animals that pose a greater threat, mosquito’s for instance. The ten most common phobias include: Trypanophobia (injections), Pteromerhanophobia (Flying), Cynophobia (dogs), and Astraphobia (thunder and lightning) etc...

If the fear of snakes is innate then surely we would start with the fear and some would learn to control that fear much like a fear of heights, the fact that children and many adults are free of the fear would suggest a learnt rather than innate, response.

[ewmon]

What may freak people out is their ability to "swim" on land (a unique/perplexing form of land locomotion), to have a vague end/tail when not fully exposed (aka, where is the end of its body?), to have a body much longer than its coils/sinusoids would suggest, to stop dead in its tracks (as it were), and to "vanish" while stock still if you look away and then try to find it again (aka "snake in the grass" ... or has it slithered away?). Or (E) All of the above.

[Moontanman]

What may freak people out is their ability to "swim" on land (a unique/perplexing form of land locomotion), to have a vague end/tail when not fully exposed (aka, where is the end of its body?), to have a body much longer than its coils/sinusoids would suggest, to stop dead in its tracks (as it were), and to "vanish" while stock still if you look away and then try to find it again (aka "snake in the grass" ... or has it slithered away?). Or (E) All of the above.

 

 

I agree, at one time snake locomotion was considered supernatural, in fact i remember being told that snakes were not natural creatures and were evil incarnate and they moved via magic.... when I was a little boy, of course avoiding T-Rex was more important back then than worrying about snakes

[arc]

 

http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatreptileblog/2009/12/09/snake-and-spider-fears-and-phobias-instinctive-or-learned/

So, based on my experiences, I leaned toward a learning-based explanation. However, recent work at UC Davis has revealed a possible evolutionary explanation to snake aversion among monkeys and, it is theorized, humans.

Fossil and DNA evidence indicates that large snakes may have been among the first serious predators of modern mammals, and were possibly the driving force behind the development of keen eyesight in Primates. The evolution of the Primate vision system seems linked very closely to fear and vigilance receptors in the brain. As Primates became better at spotting snakes, snakes developed more effective camouflage, and so on.

On Madagascar, where large snakes are absent, Primates (lemurs) have not developed the excellent vision possessed by their relatives on mainland Africa.

Most primates do indeed react with “instinctive” fear upon seeing a snake for the first time. However, I have noticed that a great many creatures, ranging from rodents to elephants, treat novel objects with caution, however harmless they might be.

 

The evolution of the Primate vision system seems linked very closely to fear and vigilance receptors in the brain.

 

Some of us may possess a more active or passive aspect of this fear and vigilance attribute. It is possible that this early acute vision system that initially developed to warn of snakes and other predators became later with an expanding brain a precision device for locating and hunting prey. Readily available to begin the task of calculating distance and supplying the needed information to lead the target for the accurate delivery of the first projectiles.

 

There may be within our brain's visual processing center a core receptor that can in many people be sensitive to snake like stimuli. Children may lack wariness due their still developing brain, their fear response towards snakes becoming more acute as their brain grows and matures.

 

​ Why should we expect to enjoy the acute hand-eye coordination and high cognitive functionality of our visual processing capabilities but not receive the feedback for which it was originally for.

Edited August 14, 2013 by arc

[arc]

I feel zapatos has a convincing innate response to snakes. No apparent childhood trauma associated to them or bias from over cautious adults.

 

I am trying to remember the context of the study that involved primate exposure to the rubber snake. It seems to me it was at a primate research facility where the primates were born in captivity with no prior exposure to snakes. I would like to see it again but it was probably 15 or 20 years ago, likely a NOVA or NAT. GEO. production. So, being reliant on my bad memory I will regard it as unreliable info.

 

But this is interesting;

http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatreptileblog/2009/12/09/snake-and-spider-fears-and-phobias-instinctive-or-learned/

So, based on my experiences, I leaned toward a learning-based explanation. However, recent work at UC Davis has revealed a possible evolutionary explanation to snake aversion among monkeys and, it is theorized, humans.

Fossil and DNA evidence indicates that large snakes may have been among the first serious predators of modern mammals, and were possibly the driving force behind the development of keen eyesight in Primates. The evolution of the Primate vision system seems linked very closely to fear and vigilance receptors in the brain. As Primates became better at spotting snakes, snakes developed more effective camouflage, and so on.

On Madagascar, where large snakes are absent, Primates (lemurs) have not developed the excellent vision possessed by their relatives on mainland Africa.

Most primates do indeed react with “instinctive” fear upon seeing a snake for the first time. However, I have noticed that a great many creatures, ranging from rodents to elephants, treat novel objects with caution, however harmless they might be.

 

 

 

The evolution of the Primate vision system seems linked very closely to fear and vigilance receptors in the brain.

 

Some of us may possess a more active or passive aspect of this fear and vigilance attribute. It is possible that this early acute vision system that initially developed to warn of snakes and other predators became later with an expanding brain a precision device for locating and hunting prey. Readily available to begin the task of calculating distance and supplying the needed information to lead the target for the accurate delivery of the first projectiles.

 

There may be within our brain's visual processing center a core receptor that can in many people be sensitive to snake like stimuli. Children may lack wariness due their still developing brain, their fear response towards snakes becoming more acute as their brain grows and matures.

 

​ Why should we expect to enjoy the acute hand-eye coordination and high cognitive functionality of our visual processing capabilities but not receive the feedback for which it was originally for.

 

Just heard this on NPR on the way home from work.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/10/28/241370496/eeek-snake-your-brain-has-a-special-corner-just-for-them

 

Anthropologist Lynne Isbell turned a chance encounter with a cobra into a discovery that primates possess an evolutionary modification directly connected to our predator and prey relationship with snakes.

 

"We have our forward-facing eyes," she says. "We have our excellent depth perception. We have very good visual acuity, the best in the mammalian world. We have color vision. So there has to be some sort of explanation for it."

 

Primates in parts of the world with lots of poisonous snakes evolved better vision than primates elsewhere. . . .The researchers measured the activity of individual brain cells while showing the monkeys images of snakes, faces, hands and simple geometric shapes. And the researchers found something remarkable in the pulvinar, a part of the brain's visual system that's unique to people, apes and monkeys.

"There are neurons that are very sensitive to snake images and much more sensitive to them than the faces of primates," Isbell says of that brain region. That's surprising, she says, because monkeys and other primates have brains that are highly sensitive to faces.

 

"This part of the visual system appears to be the sort of quicker, automatic visual system that allows us to respond without even being consciously aware of the object that we are responding to," she says.

 

What Isbell's study does suggest is that both monkeys and humans have evolved brains that are well prepared to learn to fear snakes, Mineka says. "It's identifying a possible mechanism because there is a distinct neural signature that could then be associated with threat."

Edited October 29, 2013 by arc

[Moontanman]

Does anyone have any more info about the two boys that were supposedly killed by the snake dropping out of the ceiling?