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Are these premarital sex facts legitimate or not?


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FACT 1: Premarital sex tends to break up couples.

 

FACT 2: Many men and women do not want to marry a person who has had intercourse with someone else.

 

FACT 3: Those who have premarital sex tend to have less happy marriages.

 

FACT 4: Those who have premarital sex are more likely to have their marriage end in divorce.

 

FACT 5: Persons and couples who have had premarital sex are more likely to have extramarital affairs as well.

 

FACT 6: Having premarital sex may fool you into marrying a person who is not right for you.

 

FACT 7: Persons and couples with premarital sex experience tend to

achieve sexual satisfaction sooner after they are married. However…

 

FACT 8: They are likely to be less satisfied overall with their sex life during marriage.

 

FACT 9: Poor premarital sexual habits can be carried over to spoil sex in marriage.

 

FACT 10: Guilt may push a couple into a bad marriage.

 

FACT 11: Premarital sex robs a couple of "sexual cement."

 

http://www.ucg.org/commentary/11-known-facts-about-premarital-sex/

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They are from the United Church of God website. Now do they strike you as a disinterested observer who have no axe to grind?

They seem pretty convincing 'facts'. I don't know how to look the other way.

 

 

 

 

 

FACT 4: Those who have premarital sex are more likely to have their marriage end in divorce.

 

FACT 11: Premarital sex robs a couple of "sexual cement."

 

Out of the above, I think fact 4 and fact 11 sound the most convincing to me.

What are the latest statistics suggesting?

Does premarital sex really rob a someone from having "sexual cement" with person they end up marrying in the future?

Does premarital sex diminish one's ability to form stable relationships with the opposite sex in the future?

What are the latest scientific evidence suggesting, if there are any?

I think there should be some sort of scientific data for fact 11.

 

Would strength of sexual cement between a newly wed couple be weaker relative to the situation had they not had premarital sex before having sex with each other?

 

I have heard anecdotal evidence that casual sex can lower libido and quality of sex.

 

Though I'm not sure whether previous physical/emotional attachments would hamper future relationships.

 

What are the latest scientific evidence suggesting?

 

Why are some atheists today choosing not to have casual premarital sex? Are their reasons logical?

 

From experience when it comes to the non-religious, people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds tend to lose their virginity more frequently at a younger age than people higher up. Higher socioeconomic status can be a indicator of success and people from this class tend to lose their virginity at a slightly older age and in some cases still be a virgin while marrying.

 

Or does it differ depending the mindset of individual?

 

But I am guessing one who has casual sex will have more trouble committing in the long-run and giving up the promiscuous lifestyle. I have no data to back this up though, just bias opinion probably.

Edited by Mr Rayon
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What steps have you taken in order to be so convinced? Accepting moral teaching as fact merely because they seem convincing at first glance is bonkers.

 

Q1 - does the organisation promulgating this information have an interest in promoting one side of the argument?

A1 - yes. So whilst this does not falsify the claim you now understand that the organisation may be economical with the truth, cherry-pick convenient truths, and forget to show both sides of undecided/undecidable questions. I don't know anything about Dr Strong the original author - but a quick browse shows he has basically been writing similar books for 40 years and is a methodist minister; not exactly disinterested.

 

Q2 - are these facts all present and correct, do they have an application to me, are they facts or made-up factoids.

A2 - Well the site claims to base the fact on a well-researched book - let us take that as true for the sake of argument. It was written in 1960s Wisconsin - you are a young person 50 years later in Australia; do you not recognise the changes that have taken place since then.

 

Q3 - have you sought alternative information sources (I realise that you are doing just that here). But you could check out people you know - its a delicate subject but not that bad. And there are alternative theorists Kinsey for a start.



Another technique that can be employed when presented with fact that, on the face of it, seem fairly acceptable but which you have no way of checking, or believe you do not have a way; look at the exact opposite - is it any more realistic or fantastic?

 

1. premarital sex tends to bolster relationships in couples

2. men and women prefer a partner who has had the same life and sexual experience as themselves

3. those who had premarital sex enjoy marriage more as their expectations are realistic and valid

4. those who had premarital sex are less likely to marry the wrong person and thus have a lower divorce rate

5. those who had premarital sex actually understand their own sexual urges and are less likely to need to seek fulfillment outside marriage

6. marrying in order to start having sex may fool you into a marriage that is highly unsuitable and deleterious to both parties

7. yep

8. and it tends to get more involved and fun if less energetic as the relationship matures - see point 6 about dangers of marrying cos you want to try it out

9. poor preconceptions about sex by a virgin can cause the first nights of marriage to be less than great and sour the entirety of a supposedly lifelong arrangement

10. yeah and guilt comes from the church not from the premarital bonking so less of the criticism from the reverend strong please.

11. i have no idea what sexual cement is - but I have every intention of finding out!

 

Now I just made the above up - as I expect Dr Rev Strong did his list. There is nothing to say his is more likely to be true than mine - frankly I think my list is better.

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Now I just made the above up - as I expect Dr Rev Strong did his list. There is nothing to say his is more likely to be true than mine - frankly I think my list is better.

"In 1935, Kinsey delivered a lecture to a faculty discussion group at

Indiana University, his first public discussion of the topic, wherein he

attacked the "widespread ignorance of sexual structure and physiology"

and promoted his view that "delayed marriage" (that is, delayed sexual

experience) was psychologically harmful."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Kinsey#Early_life_and_education

 

Is the above true?

That delayed sexual experience is harmful?

 

I understand Alfred Kinsey died long ago so his field may have progressed quite a bit since his death in 1956.

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Ok - on a whim I just googled sexual cement! I think I need a lie down, a cold shower, and possibly some therapy



"In 1935, Kinsey delivered a lecture to a faculty discussion group at
Indiana University, his first public discussion of the topic, wherein he
attacked the "widespread ignorance of sexual structure and physiology"
and promoted his view that "delayed marriage" (that is, delayed sexual
experience) was psychologically harmful."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Kinsey#Early_life_and_education

 

Is the above true?

That delayed sexual experience is harmful?

 

I understand Alfred Kinsey died long ago so his field may have progressed quite a bit since his death in 1956.

I didnt say Kinsey was correct - I said look for alternative sources of information. So now you have two studies that say the exact opposite of each other. It would be an appeal to authority for me to recommend believing the author whose ideas are still current - you could try a google scholar search on the two names to rate popularity. But you could spend a few hours reading up - then you have the basis to start making an opinion.

 

There is no short cut to knowledge and no correct answer in matters such as these. Most importantly you must do what is right for you; not for your parents, not for some wrinkled old prelate in wisconsin, and definitely not for an anonymous forum poster.

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Now I just made the above up - as I expect Dr Rev Strong did his list. There is nothing to say his is more likely to be true than mine - frankly I think my list is better.

Are you saying that it depends on the individual and their mindset?

 

Would the article generally apply more to christians and not other people? Is that what you're saying?

 

Is that why you can't give a definite answer?

 

What are the variables that need to be considered to determine what is right?

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Are you saying that it depends on the individual and their mindset?

That a relationship fails or survives on the individuals involved and their mindsets - hell Yes!

 

Would the article generally apply more to christians and not other people? Is that what you're saying?

I am saying that I have a sneaking suspicion that the article is intended to proselytize and persuade other to the opinion of the author and not to offer sexual health and relationship guidance.

 

Is that why you can't give a definite answer?

See my last previous post - I think the posts crossed.

 

What are the variables that need to be considered to determine what is right?

You must realise that questions such as this have been the currency of philosophers for nigh on 3000 years. Personally I believe that the abrahamic religions have used sexual proscription, patriarchy, and suppression of other views as a means of control for the last few millennia. I am completely cynical on this matter and every rule and regulation that they promulgate I look for the real reason. Adolescents become adults and move away from the power of their parents, sexual relations is a vital part of this change; a patriarchal religion requires children to be subservient and to remain children until they have the responsibilities and ties of parenthood (and thus might have interest in maintaining traditional). A group of young adults within multiple and free relationships and without the need to provide for and take care of children who have moved out from the parental home are dangerous to the status quo. Sad - but I believe true; old rules made by old men

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"THE ELEVEN KNOWN FACTSScience has established eleven facts concerning the probable effectof premarital sex on your marriage.FACT 1.     Premarital sex tends to break up couples.       Other things being equal, couples who engage in sex are       more likely to break up before marriage than those who       do not.FACT 2.     Many men and women do not want to marry a person who has            had intercourse with someone else.       Fear of AIDS is another factor now.  Also, the more       sexual experience the other person has had, the less       desirable that person is.FACT 3.     Those who have premarital sex tend to have less happy            marriages.       On the whole, your chances of being happily married are       better if you wait till you're wed to have sex.  And the       more premarital sex you have, the less likely you'll be       happy in your marriage.FACT 4.     Those who have premarital sex are more likely to have            their marriage end in divorce.       This follows from Fact 3.  If a couple is unhappy with       their marriage, they're more likely to get a divorce.        And again, the more premarital sex the individuals have       had, the greater the chance of divorce.FACT 5.     Persons and couples who have had premarital sex are more            likely to have extramarital affairs as well.        That is especially true of females.  The Kinsey report       showed that women who had sex before marriage were more       than twice as likely to cheat on their husbands as women       who were virgins at the time of their marriage.  The       same is true of men.  The more premarital sex a person       has had, the more likely he or she is to commit       adultery.  The reason is, once a couple have had sex       with each other, it is much, much easier to do the same       thing again, married or not.  Also, indulging in       "forbidden fruit" brings special pleasure and       excitement.  After marriage, sex is no longer forbidden.        Couples accustomed to the excitement of forbidden fruit       may find married sex to be a bit dull.  Might this tempt       a spouse to try to find greater excitement outside the       marriage bond - which is another kind of forbidden       fruit.FACT 6.     Having premarital sex may fool you into marrying a            person who is not right for you.       Sex can blind you.  You may believe you've found real       love, when in fact it is only sex that has held you       together.  If you wait for sex until you're quite sure       you have a sound relationship without sex, you can avoid       this tragic error.  Once your relationship is firmly       established, then your married sex life becomes a       beautiful, wondrous bonus.  It will tie you together       even more completely in your marriage.The next two facts are best taken together.  The first is a short-term plus, but the second a long-range minus.FACT 7.     Persons and couples with premarital sex experience tend            to achieve sexual satisfaction sooner after the are            married.  However ...FACT 8.     They are likely to be less satisfied overall with their            sex life during marriage.       That is, they adjust to sex more quickly, but their       overall adjustment is less satisfying than it is with       couples who wait for sex until after they wed.  One       reason is that their premarital sex experience can rise       to haunt them.  People differ widely in their sexual       nature and skills.  They tend to compare their sexual       satisfaction with previous partners if they have other       partners and they tend to get disappointed.       Married Sex Is Best       Almost any wife and husband can work out a happy sexual       adjustment if they love each other.  Any loving couple's       sex life is likely to be fine.  When they have a warm,       compatible relationship, they can with very few       exceptions work out a good sex life.  Sex in the context       of a meaningful, lasting relationship is by far the best       sex.       Total Sex       No matter how skilled and exotic and explosive a merely       physical sexual experience may be, it cannot begin to       match total sex.  Total sex involves the completion and       conjoining of total personalities.  It merges the minds,       the emotions, and the social and spiritual selves of a       couple, as well as their two bodies.  The two truly do       become one.  They can actually be worshipping God in the       act of having sex.  No sensible person should want to       settle for anything less than that kind of sex.FACT 9.     Poor premarital sexual habits can be carried over to            spoil sex in marriage.       Since premarital sex is still a social and religious no-       no, illicit sex acts usually produce some degree of       guilt, fear, and loss of self-esteem.  This can apply to       both partners, but it is especially true for women.        They feel guilt, since they are doing what they feel       they should not do.  They lose self-respect, since they       are not living up to their own ideals.  And they are       afraid of three things:  getting caught in the act of       sex, getting pregnant, and perhaps contracting a       sexually transmitted disease.       Whether you're engaged or not, each time you have       premarital sex, you will get into a pattern of feeling       guilt and fear and loss of self-respect.  Over and over       again this happens.  You have sex, you feel fear and       guilt and remorse.  In time, all of these negative       feelings become associated with the sex act itself.       Now suppose you do get married.  To the extent you       learned to associate sex with guilt and fear and shame       before the wedding, you will in some measure feel that       way afterward.  Still, every time you two have sex, that       guilt and fear and shame will come back to haunt you.        It may take months or even years for you to recondition       yourselves.  Only then can your sex life be full and       free.FACT 10.    Guilt may push a couple into a bad marriage.       Many persons (especially those with a deep religious       faith or background) will feel that they should have sex       only with the person they wed and no one else.  So they       may feel duty-bound to marry a person they have had sex       with.  As a result, this guilt and sense of obligation       may push them into a poor marriage.FACT 11.    Premarital sex robs a couple of "sexual cement."       The sex act is the most intimate of all human behaviors.        If done with love, it bonds a couple together in a       unique way.  It is so wonderful that it keeps them       coming back to each other even though there may be real       problems - like money, in-laws, etc. - to be worked out       in their relationship.  This bonding can be called       "sexual cement," since it is so strong that it can hold       a couple together for up to three to five years.  Here's       why it is of vital importance to hold off having sex       until after you're wed so it can help you make your       marriage work out."

 

http://www.bayarea.net/~fonniepi/sharing/pete18.html

 

Hold on, while researching 'sexual cement' I bumped into the above website. It seems to be a the same 11 facts as before but with explanations and further it is entitled 'THE ELEVEN KNOWN FACTS'. What does this mean?

 

"Science has established eleven facts concerning the probable effectof premarital sex on your marriage."

Still don't like the word probable there. I guess we will never know then...

Edited by Mr Rayon
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There was a young couple named Kelly,

forced now, to walk belly to belly,

because, in their haste ,

they used wallpaper paste

instead of petroleum jelly.

 

On a more serious note, I can't see how it would be possible (or, at least reasonable) to test some of those "facts"

For example, what evidence could be used to prove or disprove "Premarital sex tends to break up couples."?

 

As far as I can tell, it's untestable so it's not science.

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I think it would be interesting if we all did research to find out what is known about the points raised, rather than speculating about their stupidity. One might not be able to prove or disprove them directly, but we could at least shed light on the subject.

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FACT 1: Premarital sex tends to break up couples.

 

To establish this, you must first determine the total percentage of successful versus unsuccessful partnerships, and then out of that group which had sex and which did not. Once you have done that, you would see if there is a strong correlation between sex and breakups. My personal stance is that is a wasted effort, as IMO you are more than likely confounding and ignoring other much more relevant variables in the breakup (like getting to know one another better and realizing the other is an idiot or a psychotic bitch). Your fact here is nothing of the sort. Instead, it's a nonsequitur assertion lacking any merit or support.

As a bonus, you should note that most couples have premarital sex, and also most couples break up. That hardly serves as evidence that the sex caused the breakup. People also carry umbrellas more often when it rains. That doesn't mean the rain is caused by people carrying umbrellas.

 

FACT 2: Many men and women do not want to marry a person who has had intercourse with someone else.

 

This one is ludicrous on its face. Let's look at all marriage records. Let's determine out of how many marriages that take place every single day, how many of those are between virgins and how many between non-virgins. Perhaps you live in an Amish community, but where I live the numbers will tend to show that marriages are much more common among non-virgins.

 

FACT 3: Those who have premarital sex tend to have less happy marriages.

 

Along similar lines, the farts of pink unicorns cause erections in leprechauns. (translation: your source is making shit up and has zero support underlying such an assertion).

I'll stop here, since pretty much every other statement you shared after number three suffers from this exact same problem.

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I think there are a few fundamental flaws with the 'facts' presented that make their factualness either void or not worth commenting on. First, many take a, slightly blanketed, moral stance. Take Fact 1, it assumes one doesn't want to break up once one is a couple. But, taken to it's logical conclusion, it tells us that a person who hasn't had premarital sex may tend to stay with someone regardless of the situation. Which tells us those who have premarital sex may be able to make better relationship advice. So whether or not this is true, it is attempting to make breaking up a bad thing while in reality it usually isn't.

 

Second, these facts, like I pointed out earlier, were written before major research has been done in this area. On another thread I talked about the only study I remember being done on premarital sex and marriage hinting that married couples are more satisfied if they didn't have premarital sex. But the study participants were by and large made up of people informed of the study by their church or students at the university were both of them need both recommendations from religious leaders and to sign a pledge saying if they broke any of the moral rules, such as premarital sex, they would be expelled or fired. This makes both bias on the sampling and expectation virtually impossible to avoid. Just like the Kinsey studies have a strong bias for more liberal sexual views, because who else is going to be comfortable enough to have sex and masturbate in front of a group of people with electrodes and 'arousal analysis machines' on them.

 

Third, nothing I have found shows any evidence that the man writing this book cited where he got these facts. This is unsurprising for a Sociologist, or many social scientists, from that time period. So it makes it damn hard to find where he got these.

 

Forth, and one of the strongest indicators of the BS, is that the entire thing is written in emotionally loaded language with strong presumptions about how you will feel when reading it. It assumes it knows your morals are the same as the writer's and goes from there. You learn not to do that in psychometrics 101, it frames a question to get the answer you want. Take the one about guilted into marriage. It assumes premarital sex causes guilt because premarital sex is bad. It's circular logic, and it either forces you to accept premarital sex is wrong to show that it is wrong and, if you don't believe it's wrong, you have to jump through mental hoops to make it make sense to you so you start assuming it's correct. It's one of the ways many people get results they want, they make an argument that makes little sense so you have to sit and think until it makes sense to you. You go through all the mental gymnastics and your brain starts telling you 'this could totally be right.' It's the same concept of cold readings, you did all their work and give them credit for being so right.

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Mr. Rayon, since you got the list on a UCG link would you mind if I asked, are you a member?


Curious, I looked up the book (It is, by the way, listed as fiction):

51nQe%2B-IeHL._AA160_.jpg

 

Sex, Love, or Romance by 'Dr.' Ray E. Short

I nearly busted my gut laughing so hard reading the whole of 'fact' one:

Premarital sex tends to break up couples. Other things being equal, couples who engage in sex are more likely to break up before marriage than those who do not. [11] So what about the young woman who gives in to sex in the hope that she won't lose her young man? ("I'm afraid if I don't give in, he'll cut out.") She would more likely hold him if she holds out. And if he does cut out - good riddance! If sex is all he wants, you are better off without him.

Another reason for more breakups: if they get into sex, that sex is one of the main things that they likely quarrel about. They very often feel guilty or even sinful for doing it. Should they tell anyone about it? She fears pregnancy and danger of getting discovered. Or they quarrel about how often and where to have it, and about contraception methods, if any, and so on. The more quarrels, the more likely a couple will break up.

Google Book


Yep. "Where can we have sex?" ends relationships quick as being hit by a freight train. biggrin.png


The footnote (endnote actually) for that fact is even funnier:

[11] Gilbert V. Hamilton, A research in Marriage (New York: Albert and Charles Boni, 1929); Clifford Kirkpatrick and Theodor Caplow, "Emotional trends in the courtship experience of college students as expressed by graphs with some observations on methodological implications," American Sociological Review 10:5 (October 1945): 619


And the book was published in 2004!

"A research in marriage" from the year Wall Street crashed, and "emotional courtship trends ***as expressed with graphs***" from the year Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun ended their one day old marriage in a ditch covered in petrol. Just another statistic I'm afraid.

It's hard to imagine parents used to brainwash their teenage daughters with books like this. I guess the internet happened.

I'm tempted to buy it

Edited by Iggy
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Few, if any, of the so called "facts" could, even in principle, be shown to be facts,

So, it figures that they are not actually "facts".

So any conclusions drawn from them are , to be polite, "guesswork".

Inow, for example,said "To establish this, you must first determine the total percentage of successful versus unsuccessful partnerships, and then out of that group which had sex and which did not. Once you have done that, you would see if there is a strong correlation between sex and breakups."

That's not enough.

It would establish correlation, but not causation.

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Inow, for example, said "To establish this, you must first determine the total percentage of successful versus unsuccessful partnerships, and then out of that group which had sex and which did not. Once you have done that, you would see if there is a strong correlation between sex and breakups."

 

That's not enough.

It would establish correlation, but not causation.

Quite right. Edited by iNow
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I think it would be interesting if we all did research to find out what is known about the points raised, rather than speculating about their stupidity. One might not be able to prove or disprove them directly, but we could at least shed light on the subject.

I have to agree with your point here. It seems like many of the complaints about the 'facts' have to do with how difficult it would be to obtain good data, and how statistically valid the data would be. This has not stopped scientists from attempting to unravel difficult questions before, so I wonder why all the ridicule here.

 

I think I could find supporting evidence for Fact 2 (Many men and women do not want to marry a person who has had intercourse with someone else) in about an hour without breaking a sweat. I would imagine that for many countries in the Middle East this 'fact' is near universal.

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It seems like many of the complaints about the 'facts' have to do with how difficult it would be to obtain good data, and how statistically valid the data would be. This has not stopped scientists from attempting to unravel difficult questions before

In which case, they are hypotheses or questions at best... Not facts.

 

Also, this thread does not exist in a vacuum. The OP has a history here that demonstrates a greater desire to lob grenades and assert nonsense than to educate, learn, or explore.

 

I think I could find supporting evidence for Fact 2 (Many men and women do not want to marry a person who has had intercourse with someone else) in about an hour without breaking a sweat.

By what metric are you establishing the presence or absence of this desire? As I noted above, it would appear that more marriages occur between non-virgins than virgins. That seems to speak strongly against the assertion.

 

Even if I'm mistaken, though, I'm curious how you would establish the presence or absence of this desire while controlling for problems with self-report measures and subjects trying to provide the answer they think you want.

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lol, no.

 

still I'm not convinced yet that agnosticism/atheism is a good way to live one's life.

 

:) I'm glad you didn't think it was impertinent to ask.

 

How do you mean that atheism is a way of living one's life? That sounds strange to me.

 

If someone you didn't know rang you up and said "My name is Jim, and I'm an atheist" what would you know about how that person lived their life?

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