rigney Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) Phi for all: We spend so much time doing little more than drowning out the endless noise from the zombie-like banshee extremist right wing asshats that fill our airwaves... that litter the internet... that invade essentially every aspect of our lives... including our fracking fast food restaurants... that we wind up completely ignoring practically everything that truly matters when it comes to governing a modern country and dealing with modern challenges in this modern world.That's what I mean by "both sides are not equally to blame." Yes, neither side is perfect. No, the problems we face don't come equally from both. One side is very much ruining it for everyone. I have several friends who are liberals and I have never heard a one of them ever speak as such. My God! Is this what our country has become? Maybe I should clarify myself. I don't hate Obama, but I detest the way in which he wants to change this nation. I don't hate the rich either. But should we take their money and bring them to a level where nothing can be created? If we do, then we will all be poor and lost. Yes! Businesses, companies and corporations are built on "our shoulders", the worker. Yet, if we drain the till to pay our employees a higher wage, better insurance and retirement packages, there will nothing to compel or urge a company to go forward. If equal rights or equal opportunity were at stake, I'd fight like hell to protect either issue. But that isn't the case. People have become so powerful as a bloc that they dictate how a business must function, and that is wrong. it is also preciously why many companies are closing their doors and/or going over seas. Can you blame them? Give me something to resolve this problem. I'll try understanding your approach to the issue, but make it something worthy of consideration. The BS I'm hearig at present scares hell out of me. Edited July 31, 2012 by rigney -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncool Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I have several friends who are liberals and I have never heard a one of them ever speak as such. My God! Is this what our country has become? Maybe I should clarify myself. I don't hate Obama, but I detest the way in which he wants to change this nation. I don't hate the rich either. But should we take their money and bring them to a level where nothing can be created? Who is advocating that? If I remember correctly, the tax being advocated was raising the top marginal rate on income tax from 36% to 39%, though I might be mixing that up with something else. 39% is nowhere near "a level where nothing can be created". If we do, then we will all be poor and lost. Yes! Businesses, companies and corporations are built on "our shoulders", the worker. Yet, if we drain the till to pay employees a higher wage, insurance and retirement, there will nothing to compell or urge a company to go forward. If equal rights or equal opportunity were at stake, I'd fight like hell to protect either issue. But that isn't the case. People have become so powerful as a bloc that they dictate how a business must function, and that's wrong. Which "people"? Do you mean the CEOs? Because they are the ones that dictate how their businesses function. Do you mean all of the executives? Because those are the only blocs I can see. And I might also say, that is preciously the reason why many companies are shutting their doors or going over seas. Are they really? Do you have statistics on how many companies are shutting their doors and going overseas? Can you compare it to a past time where things were about as bad, and policies were different? Can you blame them? Give me something to resolve this problem, anything. I'll try understanding your approach to the issue, but make it something worthy of consideration. The BS I'm hearig scares me to death. What scares me is the choice by many to use only soundbites and not to consider what people actually say and mean in context, and what their full plans are. =Uncool- 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I don't hate Obama, but I detest the way in which he wants to change this nation. Change is inevitable. 500 years ago, it was the same, with many societies keeping the traditions that still worked for them while adapting to the changes in their world and their knowledge. Today the change is happening more rapidly, true, because we're discovering so much more and dealing with so many more people and cultures. Changing the nation is not only necessary, I'd be very disappointed if our president didn't help us keep up with the rest of the world. I don't hate the rich either. But should we take their money and bring them to a level where nothing can be created? If we do, then we will all be poor and lost. The rich will be very happy to hear you feel so badly for them. It's been a very effective strategy for them, slashing wages and benefits and using cheaper offshore labor on one hand while complaining about oppressive taxes on the other. Some of these businesses are holding onto more cash than they've ever had, and many are posting record returns, EVEN IN A DEPRESSED ECONOMY! It's almost magic (as in wave one hand to get the audience's attention while you pull cards off the bottom of the deck with the other). Yes! Businesses, companies and corporations are built on "our shoulders", the worker. Yet, if we drain the till to pay our employees a higher wage, better insurance and retirement packages, there will nothing to compel or urge a company to go forward. Check the statistics, rigney, costs keep going up while wages aren't. Who is it exactly that is draining the companies? If equal rights or equal opportunity were at stake, I'd fight like hell to protect either issue. But that isn't the case. People have become so powerful as a bloc that they dictate how a business must function, and that is wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. This shows me EXACTLY how badly you've been informed by whatever sources you're REALLY listening to. The Bush years took most of the regulatory teeth out of the federal government. The agencies that keep us protected from illegal practices in business are still trying to recover. If you listen to nothing else, listen to this: Businesses will always complain about regulations, because it costs them little and the potential savings are huge. it is also preciously why many companies are closing their doors and/or going over seas. Can you blame them? Give me something to resolve this problem. I'll try understanding your approach to the issue, but make it something worthy of consideration. The BS I'm hearig at present scares hell out of me. The companies that are going overseas are saving money on cheap labor on one end, and lobbying for taxpayer subsidies on the other. They want tax breaks so they can create jobs, and when they get the breaks they ARE NOT CREATING ANY JOBS with the savings. Instead, it's the execs who split the money saved as bonuses for successful lobbying. You (we) are being deceived, and that's what many of us really want changed. Change can be good, and it doesn't mean giving up any of your patriotism and love for your country. Instead, you may even get to see a strong, prosperous, economically healthy America again, with businesses that care about the country too, not just their own bottom line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I don't hate the rich either. But should we take their money and bring them to a level where nothing can be created? If we do, then we will all be poor and lost. Rigney, I'm quite sorry, sir, but you don't know what the hell you're talking about (neither our current state of taxes nor how this has effected growth in the past). Look at those numbers, and recall that the 1960s was the longest uninterrupted period of economic expansion in US history. Further, taxes on the rich are at their lowest levels since the 1950s. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/jun/29/barack-obama/barack-obama-says-tax-rates-are-lowest-1950s-ceos-/ Yes! Businesses, companies and corporations are built on "our shoulders", the worker. Yet, if we drain the till to pay our employees a higher wage, better insurance and retirement packages, there will nothing to compel or urge a company to go forward. Again, I'm sorry, but you don't know what the hell you're talking about. The ratio of corporate profits to wages is higher than it's been at any time since before the great depression, and corporate taxes are unusually low compared against historical standards and also when compared to our global competitors. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/sep/01/robert-reich/robert-reich-says-ratio-corporate-profits-wages-hi/ http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/31/are-taxes-in-the-u-s-high-or-low/ I'll try understanding your approach to the issue, but make it something worthy of consideration. The BS I'm hearig at present scares hell out of me. You're right, what you seem to be hearing is BS, and it's why you're so misinformed. Too many times people refuse to let facts get in the way of their preferred narrative. It's not like that is part of the problem, or anything <rolleyes>. The data is quite readily accessible, and quite worthy of consideration... but as I stated above we spend too much time battling back the batshit crazy ignorant nonsense and the actual conversations about actual data seem few and far between. I'm happy to engage you in a real discussion, but thus far we can hardly get you to acknowledge that people are intentionally misinterpreting the presidents speech. It doesn't leave me optimistic toward our chances at success. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rigney Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) Rigney, I'm quite sorry, sir, but you don't know what the hell you're talking about (neither our current state of taxes nor how this has effected growth in the past). Look at those numbers, and recall that the 1960s was the longest uninterrupted period of economic expansion in US history. Further, taxes on the rich are at their lowest levels since the 1950s. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/jun/29/barack-obama/barack-obama-says-tax-rates-are-lowest-1950s-ceos-/ Again, I'm sorry, but you don't know what the hell you're talking about. The ratio of corporate profits to wages is higher than it's been at any time since before the great depression, and corporate taxes are unusually low compared against historical standards and also when compared to our global competitors. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/sep/01/robert-reich/robert-reich-says-ratio-corporate-profits-wages-hi/ http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/31/are-taxes-in-the-u-s-high-or-low/ You're right, what you seem to be hearing is BS, and it's why you're so misinformed. Too many times people refuse to let facts get in the way of their preferred narrative. It's not like that is part of the problem, or anything <rolleyes>. The data is quite readily accessible, and quite worthy of consideration... but as I stated above we spend too much time battling back the batshit crazy ignorant nonsense and the actual conversations about actual data seem few and far between. I'm happy to engage you in a real discussion, but thus far we can hardly get you to acknowledge that people are intentionally misinterpreting the presidents speech. It doesn't leave me optimistic toward our chances at success. Sorry guys but I have to get out of this one. You're far beyond my scope of knowledge and I can't hold a candle to any of you statistically. But I know my thoughts and convictions. What you say may be right as rain. But as of now, I disagree. No Mas! Edited July 31, 2012 by rigney -2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Sorry guys but I have to get out of this one. You're far beyond my scope of knowledge and I can't hold a candle to any of you statistically. But I know my thoughts and convictions. What you say may be right as rain. But as of now, I disagree. No Mas! Yeah, who cares about facts. They're like hard and stuff. I'd much rather just stick to my ignorance. It's like a warm fuzzy blanket. So much for this comment: Give me something to resolve this problem. I'll try understanding your approach to the issue, but make it something worthy of consideration. Didn't I do exactly that? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arete Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Yeah, who cares about facts. They're like hard and stuff. I'd much rather just stick to my ignorance. It's like a warm fuzzy blanket. "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." Winston Churchill 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rigney Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." Winston Churchill It couldn't have been said better, even from Mark Twain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncool Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 It couldn't have been said better, even from Mark Twain. Not to insult you, but they're referring to your statement as the "5-minute conversation", and you as the "average voter". The point is that they have done literally everything that could be done to change your views - presenting evidence that demonstrates that the basis of your views are incorrect, presenting evidence that what is proposed will help, etc. - and your response was simply (paraphrasing) "Those are my views, and they're not going to change". Basically, rigney, what could convince you that increasing taxes on the top earners in the country could be a good idea? My personal favorite quote along those lines: "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." - H. L. Mencken. =Uncool- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Sorry guys but I have to get out of this one. You're far beyond my scope of knowledge and I can't hold a candle to any of you statistically. But I know my thoughts and convictions. What you say may be right as rain. But as of now, I disagree. No Mas! One last shot: Business is great when they play it straight. Progressive tax won't break their backs. Our home on the range needs positive change. No more tricks in politics! Get your PAC off our back, no special interest attack! The US wants business to work, and we want business to work with US! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rigney Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 Not to insult you, but they're referring to your statement as the "5-minute conversation", and you as the "average voter". The point is that they have done literally everything that could be done to change your views - presenting evidence that demonstrates that the basis of your views are incorrect, presenting evidence that what is proposed will help, etc. - and your response was simply (paraphrasing) "Those are my views, and they're not going to change". Basically, rigney, what could convince you that increasing taxes on the top earners in the country could be a good idea? My personal favorite quote along those lines: "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." - H. L. Mencken. =Uncool- I understand much more than what many of you may think, but after 80 years, even a simpleton like me has a mind set. None of us can change politics even with the best of best intentions. So, let's not destroy the very basis on which they were founded. My best, but I hope you lose come November. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 None of us can change politics even with the best of best intentions. So, let's not destroy the very basis on which they were founded. My best, but I hope you lose come November. Corporations have had 230+ years after we were founded to perfect whining about taxes and regulations while arguing that their businesses need subsidization from the taxpayers, and now rewriting the laws so they can take this con to the next level. Do you really think that's a great "basis", or that another four years of Change is going to "destroy" that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncool Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 (edited) I understand much more than what many of you may think, but after 80 years, even a simpleton like me has a mind set. Only if you think you do. You can always change how you think. Your mind only sets when you think that it sets. None of us can change politics even with the best of best intentions.[/QUOTe]On the contrary. Anyone can change politics. Dimitris Christoulas changed Greek politics. Martin Luther King changed politics. Mohandas Ghandhi changed politics. Anyone can change politics. So, let's not destroy the very basis on which they were founded. The basis on which politics was founded was that of the city - politics comes from the Latin for "city". That is, politics comes from the idea that when people band together, they can do better than they can apart. That's what Obama's point was. That's what the point of the tax is - so that we all can do better, even if it may seem to be an imposition on some. That's what's missing now - we now see the richest people enriching themselves without a care as to how the poor are doing. So no, let's not destroy the basis on which politics were founded. Let's make sure that we as a society do better than we could do separately. My best, but I hope you lose come November. And the same to you. =Uncool- Edited August 1, 2012 by uncool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Obama and Romney aren't the only ones who think the government helps businesses. People in the top 2% of income thinks so, too. http://drjudystone.visibli.com/share/XXyXgP We would not have our current wealth if we had been born in a country that lacked the services our government provides — including federal support for schools and universities that have prepared us and prepared our employees for research and innovation, for roads and public transit, for our judicial system and law enforcement and the national defense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Yes, Obama may have been right Yes, yes he was. Now that we all agree the quotemined bit wasn't "bullshit", what should we talk about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Yes, yes he was. Now that we all agree the quotemined bit wasn't "bullshit", what should we talk about? Anyone remember when Bush II used a contextomy against McCain in the 2000 Republican primary? His campaign aired a commercial quoting McCain's hometown newspaper, The Arizona Republic, as saying, "It's time the rest of the nation learns about the McCain we know." It was aired as a warning, very ominous, and they went on to talk about his voting record on some cherry-picked issues. It was really effective, iirc. The actual Republic article, after the mined quote, went on to talk about how admirable McCain was, and how they were supporting his campaign completely. Apparently the strategy works on Republicans as well as Democrats, but the real culprits are the ill-informed public that fails to check sources that support what they want to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonstar57 Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 (edited) I have several friends who are liberals and I have never heard a one of them ever speak as such. My God! Is this what our country has become? Maybe I should clarify myself. I don't hate Obama, but I detest the way in which he wants to change this nation. I don't hate the rich either. But should we take their money and bring them to a level where nothing can be created? If we do, then we will all be poor and lost. Yes! Businesses, companies and corporations are built on "our shoulders", the worker. Yet, if we drain the till to pay our employees a higher wage, better insurance and retirement packages, there will nothing to compel or urge a company to go forward. If equal rights or equal opportunity were at stake, I'd fight like hell to protect either issue. But that isn't the case. People have become so powerful as a bloc that they dictate how a business must function, and that is wrong. it is also preciously why many companies are closing their doors and/or going over seas. Can you blame them? Give me something to resolve this problem. I'll try understanding your approach to the issue, but make it something worthy of consideration. The BS I'm hearig at present scares hell out of me. FALSE DICHOTOMY Why do we have to pick to leave things as they are or bleed business dry? Why can't we simply ask them to pay a little more to offset the fact that a large portion of their profits come from public propriety (roads etc) which they use more than any others. "For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required.-- Luke 12:48 " society has given great wealth to a very small number of individuals and it is time they start paying their fair share imho*EDIT* corrected punctuation Edited August 2, 2012 by dragonstar57 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 FALSE DICHOTOMY Why do we have to pick to leave things as they are or bleed business dry? Why can't we simply ask them to pay a little more to offset the fact that a large portion of their profits come from public propriety (roads etc) which they use more than any others. society has given great wealth to a very small number of individuals and it is time they start paying their fair share imho It's also revisionist history, because taxes in the very recent past were higher. In some cases, much higher. And we had prosperity — better prosperity (as measured by income expansion) than we've had in the past decade, unless you were already in the top bracket to begin with. In that case, the past decade has been great. This whole label of "job creators" and them needing lower taxes is a snow job. Bush II had the worst job creation record in the last 60 years, and most of that was with the present income tax arrangement. So I ask: if that's what's needed for job creation, where are the f&%$ing jobs? And how did people manage to create jobs in the 90's, and even in the 80's (and 70's, 60's and 50's) with those high taxes? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norbert Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 (edited) Let me guess, you're rooting for Romney? Rigney rooting for Romney, sort of has a nice ring to it. What Obama said is NOT Bullshit and you yourself know it, seeing how you very consciously omitted the rest of his quote. You don't like Obama, that's what it is, isn't it? Pshsht. You probably have some sort of racial bias stirring your bile and obscuring your mind too. I suggest you get rid of that, it has not place in the modern world. The fact of the matter is only Obama has the integrity of a real politician. Only Obama can be trusted because he knows what its like to be on the bottom or nearly there, he has humble beginnings. He actually has a tie to normal humanity. He may not have been THE Messiah we all expected these past 4 years but you must realize that the job of a president is no walk in the garden. IT IS HARD. I think he did a great job and I know he can do a lot better, and you can't deny that this time around he actually HAS the experience, even if he didn't 4 years ago. Romney? Not so much... As Bill Mahr put it: "He's half white and half black, so far we've only seen his white half. This time around we'll see his black half" Edited August 2, 2012 by Norbert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padren Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Only Obama can be trusted because he knows what its like to be on the bottom or nearly there, he has humble beginnings. That's not a reason to trust someone, many untrustworthy people know what it's like to be on the bottom. I do think Obama is the far more responsible choice than Romney, but the above statement is a really bad reason to trust anyone, let alone only them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norbert Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 That's not a reason to trust someone, many untrustworthy people know what it's like to be on the bottom. I do think Obama is the far more responsible choice than Romney, but the above statement is a really bad reason to trust anyone, let alone only them. Between him and Romney, he's the one I'd trust because he has more going for him. 1) He WAS president for 4 years, he has had plenty of experience. 2) He has unfinished business -- you can't separate a man and his business, it's a sacred bond. 3) His having humble beginnings and a connection to real humanity (not solely political elites) doesn't make him infallible, but it does make him better than someone who does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Let me guess, you're rooting for Romney? Rigney rooting for Romney, sort of has a nice ring to it. What Obama said is NOT Bullshit and you yourself know it, seeing how you very consciously omitted the rest of his quote. You don't like Obama, that's what it is, isn't it? Pshsht. You probably have some sort of racial bias stirring your bile and obscuring your mind too. I suggest you get rid of that, it has not place in the modern world. The fact of the matter is only Obama has the integrity of a real politician. Only Obama can be trusted because he knows what its like to be on the bottom or nearly there, he has humble beginnings. He actually has a tie to normal humanity. He may not have been THE Messiah we all expected these past 4 years but you must realize that the job of a president is no walk in the garden. IT IS HARD. I think he did a great job and I know he can do a lot better, and you can't deny that this time around he actually HAS the experience, even if he didn't 4 years ago. Romney? Not so much... As Bill Mahr put it: "He's half white and half black, so far we've only seen his white half. This time around we'll see his black half" Do you feel that everyone who doesn't like Obama is a racist who has stirred bile and an obscured mind, or are you only being insulting to Rigney? No one else besides Obama has the integrity of a real politician? Pshsht. You are as biased as those on the right you ridicule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonstar57 Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Do you feel that everyone who doesn't like Obama is a racist who has stirred bile and an obscured mind, or are you only being insulting to Rigney? No one else besides Obama has the integrity of a real politician? Pshsht. You are as biased as those on the right you ridicule. idk I kind of agree it is a big + that Obama has experienced being in the lower income brackets and it is easy to think that will make him more grounded and in touch with the average American. I think Norbert was just indulging in some hyperbole. after all it does seem that rigney wants to find a reason to not like obama not to mention quote mining is a very common pet peeve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 idk I kind of agree it is a big + that Obama has experienced being in the lower income brackets and it is easy to think that will make him more grounded and in touch with the average American. I think Norbert was just indulging in some hyperbole. after all it does seem that rigney wants to find a reason to not like obama not to mention quote mining is a very common pet peeve. Then go after him for quote mining. I don't see how wanting to find a reason to not like Obama suggests Rigney is a racist. That goes well beyond hyperbole and is a presonal attack. Ad hominem attacks are reminiscent of the worst of the right wing. It is no better coming from the left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norbert Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 (edited) Do you feel that everyone who doesn't like Obama is a racist who has stirred bile and an obscured mind, or are you only being insulting to Rigney? No one else besides Obama has the integrity of a real politician? Pshsht. You are as biased as those on the right you ridicule. Maybe I wasn't totally clear but I meant between him and Romney. There are many men who do who aren't named Obama, of course. Edited August 3, 2012 by Norbert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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