A place of existence

[Nelson]

Im not a PHD or scientist but after many discussions i still have no way of overcoming the mind boggle that is put simply, is - Where is the universe ?

In much the same way as this lad in the state of reflection staring up at the stars, everything and everyone is 'somewhere' and has a physical place of existence.

Often the debate turns into a debate about infinity etc etc. This, i can understand but everything has to have a place of existence to actually exist and surely the infinity explanation just decays into a 'cop out' much the same as God is everywhere.

 

what are the thoughts of other users?

regards

Nelson

[michel123456]

Well, I think that's all relative.

I am at the centre of my universe, so my universe is here (and now).

Ineluctably, your universe is here and now too, only that's your "here" and your "now", not mine.

[Tres Juicy]

Yes, but the universe as a whole must reside somewhere.

 

If the universe is infinite, where does it reside?

 

My observable universe resides within a wider universe but it all must exist somewhere.

 

Where or what does the universe exist within?

[Nelson]

precisely my point Al

Yes, but the universe as a whole must reside somewhere.

 

If the universe is infinite, where does it reside?

 

My observable universe resides within a wider universe but it all must exist somewhere.

 

Where or what does the universe exist within?

[ACG52]

Yes, but the universe as a whole must reside somewhere.

 

Why?

 

The universe as a whole is all there is. There's nowhere else for it to be.

[Tres Juicy]

Why?

 

...There's nowhere else for it to be.

 

So where is it?

 

Does it contain itself?

[ACG52]

So where is it?

 

Since it's all there is, the question doesn't have any meaning.

[Nelson]

see... decayed into a "it just is" debate lol

come on people. it has to be somewhere or it defys physics as they are understood

[Tres Juicy]

Since it's all there is, the question doesn't have any meaning.

 

Exactly.

 

Does this point to holes in our understanding then?

 

Something cannot exist without a space to exist in - at least not in this universe.

 

Conversley, does the universe contain itself? If so, how can that be possible?

[ACG52]

Something cannot exist without a space to exist in - at least not in this universe.

 

Since the universe is all of space, it contains itself. There is no 'outside'.

 

Does this point to holes in our understanding then?

 

 

No, it points to holes in our language and spatial perceptions.

[Joatmon]

There seems to be evidence that there may be other universes that have bumped into our own universe on four occasions. This seems to me to suggest that they are separated from us and mobile. So what is between these universes (if they exist)?

 

http://phys.org/news/2010-12-scientists-evidence-universes.html

[Nelson]

so its safe to label something as unable to understand rather than to question it???

sweep it under the rug ? it just is, is not an explanation

 

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/67704-finite-or-infinite-universe/page__gopid__692108#entry692108

 

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/67704-finite-or-infinite-universe/page__gopid__692108#entry692108

[ACG52]

it just is, is not an explanation

 

In fat, it is. You are trying to find an explanation which fits with your common, daily perceptions of the world. The universe doesn't work that way.

 

Its the way nature is!

If you dont like it, go somewhere else....

To another universe, where the rules are simpler

Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy

Prof Richard Fyenman (1979) .....

 

 

 

 

 

[Tres Juicy]

In fat, it is. You are trying to find an explanation which fits with your common, daily perceptions of the world. The universe doesn't work that way.

 

 

I'm not looking for "an explanation which fits with my common, daily perceptions of the world" - I'm looking for an explanation that fits with physics.

[dimreepr]

This possibility

 

http://www.kurzweilai.net/astronomers-find-evidence-of-other-universes-in-cosmic-microwave-background

 

Is worthy of consideration and if true implies the multiverse exists within something.

 

 

[ACG52]

This possibility

 

http://www.kurzweilai.net/astronomers-find-evidence-of-other-universes-in-cosmic-microwave-background

 

Is worthy of consideration and if true implies the multiverse exists within something.

 

 

 

 

A multiverse scenerio does indeed require another framework to support it.

 

One problem with this being evidence of the Eternal Inflation hypothesis, is that in Eternal Inflation the inflaton field, which is what the universes bubble out of, is undergoing exponential inflation between the bubbles, so there's no way they could ever come in contact. Furthermore, the universes would have to be in contact with ours at BB plus 380000 years to leave an impression on the photon decoupling.

[Pymander]

Im not a PHD or scientist but after many discussions i still have no way of overcoming the mind boggle that is put simply, is - Where is the universe ?

In much the same way as this lad in the state of reflection staring up at the stars, everything and everyone is 'somewhere' and has a physical place of existence.

Often the debate turns into a debate about infinity etc etc. This, i can understand but everything has to have a place of existence to actually exist and surely the infinity explanation just decays into a 'cop out' much the same as God is everywhere.

 

what are the thoughts of other users?

regards

Nelson

So far there is one source that answers such questions without creating more, at least in my experience. Short of anything more sensible, I'm running with this. Be warned, it is a psychic source, and many fakes have destroyed the credence of such.

 

9. (Q) May we assume that the term "entangle" means a

soul's participation and immersion in a form or system of

creative expression which was not necessarily intended for

such participation and immersion, as the earth?

(A) To be sure, there are those consciousnesses or

awarenesses that have not participated in nor been a part of

earth's PHYSICAL consciousness; as the angels, the

archangels, the masters to whom there has been attainment,

and to those influences that have prepared the way.

 

Remember, as given, the earth is that speck, that part of

creation where souls projected themselves into matter, and

thus brought that conscious awareness of themselves

entertaining the ability of creating without those forces of

the spirit of truth.

 

Hence that which has been indicated - that serpent, that

satan, that power manifested by entities that, created as

the cooperative influence, through will separated themselves.

 

As this came about, it was necessary for their own awareness

in the SPHERES of activity. Thus realms of systems came

into being; as vast as the power of thought in attempting to

understand infinity, or to comprehend that there is no space

or time.

 

Yet time AND space, in patience, you may comprehend.

TEXT OF READING 5755-2 (lines 2115227 to 2115253 of 'C:\ECR\Edgar Cayce Readings.txt')

 

7. (Q) Please explain the following from rdg. [262-96, Par.

11] May 24, 1936: "For the soul had understanding before he

partook of the flesh in which the choice was to be made."

Why (if the soul had understanding) the necessity to take

flesh in order to make the choice?

(A) Considereth thou that Spirit hath its manifestations,

or does it USE manifestations for its activity? The Spirit

of God is aware through activity, and we see it in those

things celestial, terrestrial, of the air, of all forms.

And ALL of these are merely manifestations! The Knowledge,

the understanding, the comprehending, then necessitated the

entering in because it partook of that which WAS in

manifestation; and thus the PERFECT body, the celestial

body, became an earthly body and thus put on flesh.

 

When the earth became a dwelling place for matter, when

gases formed into those things that man sees in nature and

in activity about him, then matter began its ascent in the

various forms of physical evolution - in the MIND of God!

 

The spirit chose to enter (celestial, not an earth spirit -

he hadn't come into the earth yet!), chose to put on, to

become a part of that which was as a command not to be done!

 

Then those so entering MUST continue through the earth until

the body-mind is made perfect for the soul, or the body-

celestial again.

TEXT OF READING 262-99 (lines 216142 to 216174 of 'C:\ECR\Edgar Cayce Readings.txt')

Edited July 22, 2012 by Pymander

[ACG52]

That certainly does not belong in a science thread.

 

I'd say it should go straight to the trash.

 

 

 

[alpha2cen]

A multiverse scenerio does indeed require another framework to support it.

 

One problem with this being evidence of the Eternal Inflation hypothesis, is that in Eternal Inflation the inflaton field, which is what the universes bubble out of, is undergoing exponential inflation between the bubbles, so there's no way they could ever come in contact. Furthermore, the universes would have to be in contact with ours at BB plus 380000 years to leave an impression on the photon decoupling.

 

If Higgs field really exists, The possibility of the existence of another kind of multiverse might be realized.

This is the multiverse which is based on the Higgs field barrier.

 

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/67828-super-higgs-field-universe-and-twin-higgs-field-universe/

[ACG52]

There are currently nine different types of multiverse hypothesis.

[hypervalent_iodine]

!

Moderator Note

Pymander,

Please stop using this forum to spam your speculations and pet hypotheses. It stops here. Any more comments of this nature will be removed.

[Nelson]

What in Darwins name are you going on about dude???? are you drunk???#

 

So far there is one source that answers such questions without creating more, at least in my experience. Short of anything more sensible, I'm running with this. Be warned, it is a psychic source, and many fakes have destroyed the credence of such.

 

9. (Q) May we assume that the term "entangle" means a

soul's participation and immersion in a form or system of

creative expression which was not necessarily intended for

such participation and immersion, as the earth?

(A) To be sure, there are those consciousnesses or

awarenesses that have not participated in nor been a part of

earth's PHYSICAL consciousness; as the angels, the

archangels, the masters to whom there has been attainment,

and to those influences that have prepared the way.

 

Remember, as given, the earth is that speck, that part of

creation where souls projected themselves into matter, and

thus brought that conscious awareness of themselves

entertaining the ability of creating without those forces of

the spirit of truth.

 

Hence that which has been indicated - that serpent, that

satan, that power manifested by entities that, created as

the cooperative influence, through will separated themselves.

 

As this came about, it was necessary for their own awareness

in the SPHERES of activity. Thus realms of systems came

into being; as vast as the power of thought in attempting to

understand infinity, or to comprehend that there is no space

or time.

 

Yet time AND space, in patience, you may comprehend.

TEXT OF READING 5755-2 (lines 2115227 to 2115253 of 'C:\ECR\Edgar Cayce Readings.txt')

 

7. (Q) Please explain the following from rdg. [262-96, Par.

11] May 24, 1936: "For the soul had understanding before he

partook of the flesh in which the choice was to be made."

Why (if the soul had understanding) the necessity to take

flesh in order to make the choice?

(A) Considereth thou that Spirit hath its manifestations,

or does it USE manifestations for its activity? The Spirit

of God is aware through activity, and we see it in those

things celestial, terrestrial, of the air, of all forms.

And ALL of these are merely manifestations! The Knowledge,

the understanding, the comprehending, then necessitated the

entering in because it partook of that which WAS in

manifestation; and thus the PERFECT body, the celestial

body, became an earthly body and thus put on flesh.

 

When the earth became a dwelling place for matter, when

gases formed into those things that man sees in nature and

in activity about him, then matter began its ascent in the

various forms of physical evolution - in the MIND of God!

 

The spirit chose to enter (celestial, not an earth spirit -

he hadn't come into the earth yet!), chose to put on, to

become a part of that which was as a command not to be done!

 

Then those so entering MUST continue through the earth until

the body-mind is made perfect for the soul, or the body-

celestial again.

TEXT OF READING 262-99 (lines 216142 to 216174 of 'C:\ECR\Edgar Cayce Readings.txt')

 

 

 

 

so in conclusion to your thoughts so far guys, do you think the universe has a place of existence or not? its an impossible question but dont fob it off for a "its everything" response

[Tres Juicy]

Also, how can we talk about the shape of the universe when shape is defined by boundaries?

 

if the universe is infinite it can't have a shape can it?

[Nelson]

same point with the age... a finite time = a finite universe

[MigL]

Not necessaril, the universe has always encompassed everything there is, even at t=0, so it has always been unbounded. In effect it may also be finite or infinite, but a finite time need not mean a finite size.