Moontanman Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 If you area believer and think the bible is a superior moral code... read it! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 And, there's always this: 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doG Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Let's not forget the Christian take... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypervalent_iodine Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 ! Moderator Note Mohammad Shafiq Khan,Please stop spam-derailing threads. It's tiresome. I've removed your comment from this thread as it has absolutely no relevance to the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immortal Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Isn't it that God is going to punish them in hell anyway so why should people stone them to death. Who are we to judge? Are we really pure than the others? Its okay to keep them out of the city if the purity of the land is what it is to be maintained but the explicit teachings of the Abrahamic God ordering people to stone them to death is a bit outrageous. This is what Jesus did. John 8 1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4 they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?” 6 This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. 9 But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”]] Let's not forget the Christian take... Its probable that Jesus came to save the world from a catastrophe which could have been caused due to changes in the numinous world and not so much to die for our sins so that we can keep committing sins again and again thinking that God will forgive us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewmon Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 The last part of the video is most telling: "If you're going to use the Holy Bible to condemn others..." Jews don't care what others do because their laws are only for them, Christians "condemn" only each other but not non-believers (except for a few loud-mouth idiots who do), and the Christian faith nullifies those kinds of Old Testament laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I preferred the version I heard at school "1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4 they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?” 6 This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” followed by a thud and a squeal, then "For F*ck's sake mother!" Interestingly, they brought the woman, but not the man. "Its probable that Jesus came to save the world from a catastrophe which could have been caused due to changes in the numinous world and not so much to die for our sins so that we can keep committing sins again and again thinking that God will forgive us. " It's probable is it? What value of probability do you ascribe to that idea and on what basis? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 The last part of the video is most telling: "If you're going to use the Holy Bible to condemn others..." Jews don't care what others do because their laws are only for them, Christians "condemn" only each other but not non-believers (except for a few loud-mouth idiots who do), and the Christian faith nullifies those kinds of Old Testament laws. So the Ten commandments can now be ignored? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doG Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Christians "condemn" only each other but not non-believers (except for a few loud-mouth idiots who do), and the Christian faith nullifies those kinds of Old Testament laws. Really now? The Christians around these parts tell me I'm going to hell because I haven't accepted Jesus as my savior. They claim everyone that's not Christian is destined for hell. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immortal Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 "Its probable that Jesus came to save the world from a catastrophe which could have been caused due to changes in the numinous world and not so much to die for our sins so that we can keep committing sins again and again thinking that God will forgive us. " It's probable is it? What value of probability do you ascribe to that idea and on what basis? Those who say they will die first and then rise are in error. If they do not first receive the resurrection while they live, when they die they will receive nothing. - Gospel of Philip Even the Brahmin priests do a ritual called as Upanayana whose purpose is same as the Sacrament of Baptism i.e to born again or for liberation. How many of todays Church Fathers or the Brahmin Priests can make us experience the rebirth or can show the Christ in us? So it is said... Excerpta ex Theodoto, 78, 2: But not baptism alone sets us free, but knowledge (gnosis): who we were, what we have become, where we were, whither we have sunk, whither we hasten, whence we are redeemed, what is birth and what rebirth. One enters the Kingdom of God through knowledge and not through ignorance or through blind faith just by believing that Jesus died for our sins or goes to hell for disbelief. So why did Jesus had to die and undergo so much suffering? "Know ye then that the first quarter of the first acorn has just ended. The second quarter is about to begin and this is the crucial junction period. The world is to witness the loss of one of the sixteen lustrous signs of Logos and will weep over it. That grief of the five elements (which constitutes man too) will have to be borne by a virtuous person. He suffers so that the many can be benefited. The grief of the present junction period will have to be entirely borne by Vashista. He has agreed to bore it even though he can be in a state of perpetual contentment in any situation. The angels have ordained events to make him suffer and transfer the grief of the five elements to him." said by Indra. - Devudu, Mahabrahmana. This idea is based on comparative religion, there have been many virtuous men according to religious literature who have deliberately undergone such suffering to save the world. Jesus knew the kind of death that he was about to face, he was never betrayed, he himself ordained to hand him over to the pharisees. God had foreordained it. He said he came to save the world. John12: 44 And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. 45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. 47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.” He came to save the world by deliberately taking up suffering on himself and yes he came to give eternal life but not by dieing on the cross for our sins. Early Christians never believed in sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 The last part of the video is most telling: "If you're going to use the Holy Bible to condemn others..." Jews don't care what others do because their laws are only for them, Christians "condemn" only each other but not non-believers (except for a few loud-mouth idiots who do), and the Christian faith nullifies those kinds of Old Testament laws. OK, since that's one of the ten commandments I guess the others are also nullified. What about the creation myth and the story of the flood? Is it all tosh, or just the bit about adultery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewmon Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) If you are a believer and think the bible is a superior moral code... read it! I have read the entire Bible at least twice. Has anyone else here read the entire Bible? I would say that the vast majority of detractors of the Bible have not read it in its entirety. If you want to understand what the Bible really says, then you should read it too. It's a joke to think that Martin Sheen or Hollywood is an authority on the Bible. Edited June 22, 2012 by ewmon -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 I have read the entire Bible at least twice. Has anyone else here read the entire Bible? I would say that the vast majority of detractors of the Bible have not read it in its entirety. If you want to understand what the Bible really says, then you should read it too. It's a joke to think that Martin Sheen or Hollywood is an authority on the Bible. Actually i have read it, more than once cover to cover and many times if you count all the cherry picked passages I studied in Sunday school and I did indeed look up the passages quoted by martin sheen , which you evidently did not, I suggest you read those quotes out of the bible and see what they mean. I would definitely suggest you not assume things about me or anyone else that you do not and cannot know.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Jews don't care what others do because their laws are only for them, Christians "condemn" only each other but not non-believers (except for a few loud-mouth idiots who do), and the Christian faith nullifies those kinds of Old Testament laws. But in Matthew 5:17, Jesus clearly states that the Old Testament laws are still in effect, that we are to follow them if we follow Christ. I have read the entire Bible at least twice. Has anyone else here read the entire Bible? Yes, more than twice. I would say that the vast majority of detractors of the Bible have not read it in its entirety. If you want to understand what the Bible really says, then you should read it too. Oh please, how can anyone know what the Bible really says? Anybody is just one of billions of interpreters with millions of interpretations about hundreds of thousands of topics. Why should I trust anyone's explanation about something with so many explanations? The only true stance is to take it literally, word for word, and that doesn't work out very well. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Of course... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 After "going out on a limb" one too many times, I learned that most people just happen to believe the way the folks around them (family, congregants) interpret the Bible. There's a true miracle, that so many people who found the one "true" way would all just happen to live in the same community! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) I have read the entire Bible at least twice. Has anyone else here read the entire Bible? I would say that the vast majority of detractors of the Bible have not read it in its entirety. If you want to understand what the Bible really says, then you should read it too. It's a joke to think that Martin Sheen or Hollywood is an authority on the Bible. ewmon, with this post you have exposed something I think is important. Most believers have no idea what their holy books says, they only read, if they read it at all, the cherry picked passages their Priest, Pastor, or Sunday school teacher tells them to read with no idea about what the rest says. Reading the Bible cover to cover is what started me on my road to being a non believer. I was about 14 or so when the Sunday school teacher told us about Job and how he was such a righteous man that he was willing to kill his child for god. This disturbed me quite a bit and while I'd had lots of questions from an early age, I knew Noah's ark was simply not true when I was 8, I still clung to the idea of a kind and loving god. The story of Job stunned me so much I decided to read the entire bible. It was insanity personified, very few books even in fiction are so bloody and have such gory details. Since then I have read it cover more times than i can actually remember but at that time I read it at least twice, stunned by what was in it and hoping against hope I had read it wrong. The stunning thing is that most believers allow others to tell them what is in the bible instead of reading it them selves or they allow others to tell them what passages mean instead of accepting them at face value or at least reading the entire passage and the stuff around it that puts it in context. If I had a $ for every time I've heard the whine of theists telling me that if I would only read the Holy Word of god I would see the error of my ways.... Well ewmon, i have read the bible, it is either the most violent, gory, misogynist, bigoted, arrogant, fiction i have ever read or it is a description of a powerful being who is nothing but a monster, a monster that lies, cheats, and demands people rape, kill, and plunder for it's own amusement. So please don't insult me further by insinuating that if i had only read the bible I would see how great god is.... The bold sentence in your post is totally unsupported bullshit... Oh yeah I agree that every one should read the Holy Bible, it's the best way to convert people to atheism... Edited June 22, 2012 by Moontanman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 So please don't insult me further by insinuating that if i had only read the bible I would see how great god is.... The bold sentence in your post is totally unsupported bullshit... Actually, I also think most people who are detractors of anything requiring a great deal of study are ignorant of the subject. I wouldn't go as far as saying "vast majority", which I personally consider to be 75% or more, but I do think more than half the people are not willing to put in the time for in-depth study, especially when they have already formed an opinion on the subject. That said, I think most people who support anything requiring a great deal of study are equally ignorant of the subject. They tend to form opinions the same way detractors do, based on a bit of information and possibly too much faith in the people they get the information from. This is actually one of the things that attracts me to science. At least the scientific method has a mechanism for me to study and draw my own conclusions based on the most trust-worthy explanations, even when I've chosen not to do the actual observations and experiments myself. I know there are always people out there trying to overturn theory and those people don't believe knowledge should be sacred and etched in stone. Oh yeah I agree that every one should read the Holy Bible, it's the best way to convert people to atheism... As long as that's not the only thing they read, I agree. Send the Amish to college! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewmon Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 ewmon, with this post you have exposed something I think is important. Most believers have no idea what their holy books says, they only read, if they read it at all, the cherry picked passages their Priest, Pastor, or Sunday school teacher tells them to read with no idea about what the rest says. ... The stunning thing is that most believers allow others to tell them what is in the bible instead of reading it them selves or they allow others to tell them what passages mean instead of accepting them at face value or at least reading the entire passage and the stuff around it that puts it in context. I congratulate you on reading the bible cover-to-cover many times. If I insulted you by implying that you had never read it cover-to-cover, then you insulted me by implying that I hadn't read it. I only gave back to you what you gave me. And now I'll give it back to you again. So, you know about "most believers" how? Have you surveyed them? Taken a poll? (And, by the way, the part you found chilling was about Abram, not Job, and it bothers me too. I don't drink the Kool-Aid.) Moontanman, I know one thing: religion typically provokes endless debate. But I can agree to disagree. How about you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I have not read it, though I had bits of it read at me at school. Now, will someone please explain, if I were to read it (starting from the beginning) which bits should I actually believe? Has the whole of the first testament been overturned, or was it just bits of it. Have those overturnings been overruled again? What would be the point of me reading it since no two people seem to agree of which bits of it are still the word of God (which leads the the question of did He get it wrong in the first place?) and which bits are now outdated. However, it's fair to say that some bits of it- not least those cited above - indicate that it's not a sensible guide to how to lead your life anyway, so why would I bother to read it?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) I congratulate you on reading the bible cover-to-cover many times. If I insulted you by implying that you had never read it cover-to-cover, then you insulted me by implying that I hadn't read it. I only gave back to you what you gave me. Quite the contrary I didn't insinuate you had never read the bible I asserted that you didn't read the passages in the video because you claimed that because Martin Sheen was quoting from the bible in that clip that he was some how unqualified to quote from the bible! I have read the entire Bible at least twice. Has anyone else here read the entire Bible? I would say that the vast majority of detractors of the Bible have not read it in its entirety. If you want to understand what the Bible really says, then you should read it too. It's a joke to think that Martin Sheen or Hollywood is an authority on the Bible. Just because an actor quoted the bible doesn't mean he is wrong, read the passages he quoted to see if he was correct, don't dismiss the quotes because someone famous said them. And now I'll give it back to you again. So, you know about "most believers" how? Have you surveyed them? Taken a poll? Actually very nearly every believer we get here has little idea of what the bible really says, all they have is what someone else told them. I am consistently having to point out that their assertions of what the bible says is bullshit. Sadly this is true in real life as well. (And, by the way, the part you found chilling was about Abram, not Job, and it bothers me too. I don't drink the Kool-Aid.) So you only cherry pick the things you are going to believe? Moontanman, I know one thing: religion typically provokes endless debate. But I can agree to disagree. How about you? No, this is far to important to agree to disagree, religion is actively proselytizing the masses, they do this mainly by lies and deceit. They gloss over the horrific stuff and paint a picture of this benevolent god who loves everyone and that if everyone would just believe all would be right with the world but past history of religion clearly shows this not to be true. Until the enlightenment not agreeing could earn you a bath in boiling oil, burning at the stake or a nice ride on the rack. Abrahamic religion was gelded by the enlightenment before that religion had total control over every one and to step outside the limits imposed by religion was to risk a horrific end. Religion cannot agree to disagree, it's very purpose is to convert everyone, lies are ok, in fact the founder of the protestant religion said that lies were ok and when reality conflicted with the bible the bible must be believed instead of reality. If religion is given back power like the people in the US seem to want I would be tortured until I confessed belief and then I'd be burned at the stake. No, I cannot agree to disagree when it comes to something like religion that actively seeks to control our society via fairy tales written over 2500 years ago.... Edited June 22, 2012 by Moontanman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewmon Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 So you only cherry pick the things you are going to believe?... Until the enlightenment not agreeing could earn you a bath in boiling oil, burning at the stake or a nice ride on the rack... I cannot agree to disagree when it comes to something like religion... No, I use my brains. I also don't reject the Declaration of Independence because it doesn't address slavery. Ancient history ... again. I also don't seek the downfall of the United States because it once allowed slavery. Then you'll have a one-sided conversation with me. I'm not proselytizing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 No, I use my brains. I also don't reject the Declaration of Independence because it doesn't address slavery. Ancient history ... again. I also don't seek the downfall of the United States because it once allowed slavery. Then you'll have a one-sided conversation with me. I'm not proselytizing. You don't know what your own religion really is, the Christianity you know is a pale shadow of what it once was. Even today you get the odd sniper killing a doctor, a bomber destroying a women's health clinic, even open warfare between Christian sects but before the enlightenment religion was law, think Sharia law, and people who didn't worship the way the powers that were said was the right way then you died. There was almost constant warfare between various sects, the USA was unique because there was no state religion, it had freedom of religion because it had no official religion. That sort of mindset cannot be allowed to get control of modern technology. In the USA the religious are pursuing the goal of religion, law and government being the same thing, you know... for everyone's own good, the moderate Christians, who are conspicuous only by their silence, cannot see how dangerous this stuff is. Since they only experience the gelded form of their religion they think it should be put back in power and everyone would be better off for it. This theocracy cannot be allowed to happen, even now the republican candidate, actually all of them, claimed to be creationists, it's insanity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewmon Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 You don't know what your own religion really is, the Christianity you know is a pale shadow of what it once was. Even today you get the odd sniper killing a doctor, a bomber destroying a women's health clinic, even open warfare between Christian sects but before the enlightenment religion was law, think Sharia law, and people who didn't worship the way the powers that were said was the right way then you died. There was almost constant warfare between various sects, the USA was unique because there was no state religion, it had freedom of religion because it had no official religion. That sort of mindset cannot be allowed to get control of modern technology. In the USA the religious are pursuing the goal of religion, law and government being the same thing, you know... for everyone's own good, the moderate Christians, who are conspicuous only by their silence, cannot see how dangerous this stuff is. Since they only experience the gelded form of their religion they think it should be put back in power and everyone would be better off for it. This theocracy cannot be allowed to happen, even now the republican candidate, actually all of them, claimed to be creationists, it's insanity... You let it all hang out, so now I know you better. Thank God we have separation of church and state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted June 23, 2012 Author Share Posted June 23, 2012 You let it all hang out, so now I know you better. Thank God we have separation of church and state. Thank the founding fathers but the religious are doing their best to break that barrier between church and state... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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