dapifo Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) There are a lot of articles and doccuments talking about the "Free Energy" machines, but there is any real demonstration of its operation? There is any physical explanation to accept or to refute it? Edited June 19, 2012 by dapifo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 There is any physical explanation to accept or to refute it? Yes, there will always be losses. There are losses from electrical resistance, there are losses due to friction, and there is wear and tear. The very act of pulling energy out of a system means that the system has less energy. Conservation of energy says that free energy is a no-no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joatmon Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) Now, perpetual motion is a no no, but free energy is IMO something else. It can be free to the user because he doesn't have to provide an input. One very simple example is, or was, a clock powered by atmospheric pressure changes and temperature changes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmos_clock Edited June 19, 2012 by Joatmon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Externet Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) In that context, for every source of energy you may call 'free' there will be a large number of contraptions that will convert such 'free' energy into electricity, motion, heat, light... Which input do you want to choose, and what output you want it to deliver ? We will find a device that will do it. Example; for sunlight in and electricity out; the photovoltaic cell does it. Be aware the cell costs something. Free energy could be also delivered by a machine that generates some output by itself. As "real demonstrations", none works. But this is the prettiest one I have seen. There is a hidden trick to it: ----> Edited June 19, 2012 by Externet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spyman Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 There are a lot of articles and doccuments talking about the "Free Energy" machines, but there is any real demonstration of its operation? There is any physical explanation to accept or to refute it? Perpetual motion describes "Motion that continues indefinitely without any external source of energy; impossible in practice because of friction." It can also be described as "the motion of a hypothetical machine which, once activated, would run forever unless subject to an external force or to wear". There is a scientific consensus that perpetual motion in an isolated system would violate the first and/or second law of thermodynamics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Now, perpetual motion is a no no, but free energy is IMO something else. It can be free to the user because he doesn't have to provide an input. One very simple example is, or was, a clock powered by atmospheric pressure changes and temperature changes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmos_clock "Free" has a different meaning as applied to physics as compared to economics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joatmon Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 "Free" has a different meaning as applied to physics as compared to economics. Accepted and not doubted, but I think my post makes clear that I realise perpetual motion is not possible but that under the everyday understanding of free we can get energy without ourselves putting energy into a system. Any system using wind power, wave power, water flow or light would come under that everyday definition. My point, such as it is, would be that for example we don't have to burn coal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Accepted and not doubted, but I think my post makes clear that I realise perpetual motion is not possible but that under the everyday understanding of free we can get energy without ourselves putting energy into a system. Any system using wind power, wave power, water flow or light would come under that everyday definition. My point, such as it is, would be that for example we don't have to burn coal. My extension cord long enough to reach the neighbor's flat is a free energy machine now? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InigoMontoya Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Accepted and not doubted, but I think my post makes clear that I realise perpetual motion is not possible but that under the everyday understanding of free we can get energy without ourselves putting energy into a system. Any system using wind power, wave power, water flow or light would come under that everyday definition. My point, such as it is, would be that for example we don't have to burn coal. Coal's free. You just dig it up out of the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joatmon Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) My extension cord long enough to reach the neighbor's flat is a free energy machine now? I suppose anything you steal or is given to you is free as far as you are concerned. Coal's free. You just dig it up out of the ground. The owner of the mine might disagree! (I suppose anything you steal is free as far as you are concerned). Edited June 20, 2012 by Joatmon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dapifo Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) I know a person that assure to me he has developed a "free energy" machine, and now he is pomoting it in several trade fairs. He will show it to me soon. Which experiment I have to do to prove and certificate if really it is getting free energy? As I know it is a "rotative endless motion machine", with a big motor coil in the middle....And it is Initialy moved by an electrical (car) battery that never is being spend...and also it generates extra electricity to keep working light bulbs It is possible that it get the new energy from the electromagnetic wave there are in the space? It is clear (or not?) that "energy is neither created nor destroyed. it is only transformed" but possible could happen something we didn´nt know: - Getting energy from other systems (universes): smaller or larger ?...neutrinos, ... Edited June 20, 2012 by dapifo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mississippichem Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) My extension cord long enough to reach the neighbor's flat is a free energy machine now? I suspect evil system boundary definition devilry. Define ydoaPs' house as the system. Define your yard as the universe [math] \rightarrow [/math] free energy! Some say I live in my own universe anyway so... Edited June 20, 2012 by mississippichem 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InigoMontoya Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I know a person that assure to me he has developed a "free energy" machine, And people have been making such claims for hundreds of years. So far, not a one of them has been correct. So what makes your friend any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D H Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 So far, not a one of them has been correct. This one looks promising: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InigoMontoya Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 You owe me a new keyboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joatmon Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) I guess I see "free" (as far as the planet is concerned) as meaning not reducing the amount of a finite resource (of the planet). i.e. of no cost to the keepers and users of those resources (us) Edited June 20, 2012 by Joatmon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robheus Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 "Free energy" is mostly a scam or hoax. But their might be actual (not defying laws of nature) forms of "free energy" and also over-unity is as such not impossible. Take for instance a heat pump, it delivers more watts of output (though in form of heat) then you need electric imput. It does not defy law of conservation of energy, because you extract some heat from below the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dapifo Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) It is clear (or not?) that "energy is neither created nor destroyed. it is only transformed" But I like always leave the door partly open and not deny exhaustively without checking. That is why I think taht possible could happen something that we don´t know (?): - It is possible that it get the new energy from the electromagnetic wave there are in the space? - Getting energy from other unknow systems (universes): smaller or larger ?...neutrinos, ... What yes it seams clear now is that there are not any scientific and oficial evidence that any machine like this is working now in the world.. Edited June 21, 2012 by dapifo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D H Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) It is clear (or not?) that "energy is neither created nor destroyed. it is only transformed" Correct. But I like always leave the door partly open and not deny exhaustively without checking. That door only exists in the minds of crackpots and charlatans. This is a perpetual motion machine of the first kind. You won't be able to patent such an invention, and if you build one, it won't work. This door does not exist. That is why I think taht possible could happen something that we don´t know (?): - It is possible that it get the new energy from the electromagnetic wave there are in the space? If you mean solar energy, sure. But that's not perpetual motion. If you mean something else, no. - Getting energy from other unknow systems (universes): smaller or larger ?...neutrinos, ... No. What yes it seams clear now is that there are not any scientific and oficial evidence that any machine like this is working now in the world.. That's because perpetual motion machines don't exist. They can't exist. Sorry. Edited June 21, 2012 by D H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dapifo Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) I see that you are very pragmatic and clear. When I am talking about the possibility of getting this extra energy from the electromagnetic wave that could be in the space, I reffers to the possibility that a big motor coil rotating at high speed (3-10.000 rpm), could generate electricity from waves of the magnetic field that may exist in space (possibly generated by several electromagnetic waves : phone, TV, radio, ...). And what about dark energy? it is the 80% of the energy of the universe and we don´t know any thing about it: what it is and where it is. That "energy is neither created nor destroyed. it is only transformed"...could be valid into our system we know...but there is a (little?) possibility that other hidden systems (dimensions) exist (??), but we still don´t know them....and this extra "free" energy comes from there.... I read about "black holes" could transfer energy and mass to other dimensions or universes (??)...and also that "force of gravity" is possible that leaks to other dimensions or universes. If these theories could be true ... why not other...(?) I agree that this would be a very small possibility, and that most (or all) of the studies about "free energy" could be false, erroneous or scams...but possible not all of them !!! Edited June 21, 2012 by dapifo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robheus Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 It is clear (or not?) that "energy is neither created nor destroyed. it is only transformed" But I like always leave the door partly open and not deny exhaustively without checking. That is why I think taht possible could happen something that we don´t know (?): - It is possible that it get the new energy from the electromagnetic wave there are in the space? - Getting energy from other unknow systems (universes): smaller or larger ?...neutrinos, ... What yes it seams clear now is that there are not any scientific and oficial evidence that any machine like this is working now in the world.. There DO exist free energy machines, since (definitional) free energy is just some device that extracts some energy from some source, without the owner paying a bill. So a windmill or solarpanel IS free energy. Likewise a heatpump is to some extent, only that still requires you to input electric energy which in most cases is not free (unless you have solar panels or windmills that generates that energy). It is clear (or not?) that "energy is neither created nor destroyed. it is only transformed" Yes, but also take in mind that any transformation of energy causes losses, and that for example heat energy can not be converted back to for example mechanical (kinetic) or electric energy without significant losses due to thermodynamic laws. But I like always leave the door partly open and not deny exhaustively without checking. I acknowledge anyone's right for entertaining all kind of phantasys or science fiction stories, but the real solutions to energy problems, won't be fixed with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.C.MacSwell Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 This one looks promising: That is by far the best perpetual motion machine design I have ever seen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InigoMontoya Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 There DO exist free energy machines, since (definitional) free energy is just some device that extracts some energy from some source, without the owner paying a bill. So a windmill or solarpanel IS free energy. Except that in both cases you either have to own the land (in which case you pay taxes) or pay rent to the land owner. Even if you want to define "free" as an economic term rather than the engineering term usually used around here... Even then there ain't no such thing as a free lunch (or free energy). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dapifo Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) When I talk about free energy, I mean what is commonly known: to obtain A energy from a system that spends only B (where A> B). Windmill or solarpanel IS NOT free energy...but possible the problem is that the extra energy is coming from any where we don´t know (!!!!?)... The questios are two: - It is known for certain of the existence of a machine like that?...your answer is clearly NO - If there ... where is coming this extra energy? The problem is to know when really a system is closed (!!!) It is possible that exist any other energy (dark energy,...) that you don´t know and realize, but that it exist (in this system)...and it is possible that, some of these machines ,what they do is transforming this "unknown energy" into a "known energy" Edited June 21, 2012 by dapifo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D H Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 When I talk about free energy, I mean what is commonly known: to obtain A energy from a system that spends only B (where A> B). In other words, an over unity device. Sorry. It doesn't exist. Learn some physics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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