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What is your justification for believing in a God?

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To go with the flow?

To congregate with a "responsible" group of people?

Because of a spiritual or God experience you had?

To find a "good" girl?

Because you were just raised that way?

Because it just makes sense, in a philosophical sort of way?

Just to be on the safe side?

Because it was written?

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I do not justify my belief in a god or gods. belief by its nature is something you choose to or not to do. There is much beyond me the peon. It would be irrational to say or think that there is not something or someone out there greater than me. I have very little control on this outside world. I think your question would be better stated as "Please define God?"

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I do not justify my belief in a god or gods. belief by its nature is something you choose to or not to do.

 

I disagree completely. I cannot simply choose to believe something... and then I believe!... it just doesn't work that way. I can choose to pretend to believe (maybe in the hope that the belief will become (or at least seem) real later on).

 

I would guess that most people's belief stems from an upbringing that has hammered the idea into their head. Others may have some significant event happen in their lives that they attribute to a higher power's intervention.

 

Personally, I have some ideas... but BELIEF ?... no.

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I just think that it would be a terribly sad if this is all there was.

 

And Jesus' words are quite agreeable to me. His moral code is something that is quite beautiful.

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There are good philosophical reasons for believing God exists.

There are no physical science reasons for believing he does not.

There is good evidence that miracles have occurred, and miracles are possible only if he exists.

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There are good philosophical reasons for believing God exists.

There are no physical science reasons for believing he does not.

There is good evidence that miracles have occurred, and miracles are possible only if he exists.

I disagree. How does science support miracles? How could science falsify things that (supposedly) didn't happen?

 

However, history and archeology can, and have, supported miracles and God IMO. So have many investigations into the Bible.

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I disagree. How does science support miracles? How could science falsify things that (supposedly) didn't happen?

 

However, history and archeology can, and have, supported miracles and God IMO. So have many investigations into the Bible.

I don't understand your disagreement. All I said was that that the physical sciences provide no support for the claim that God doesn't exist.

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Physical science doesn't provide support for the idea that unicorns don't exist.

Do you believe in them, and the fairies at the bottom of the garden (please note the fairies hide when you look for them)?

 

Brainteaserfan's point is that you can't physically prove that something doesn't exist.

 

 

Also, re

"There are good philosophical reasons for believing God exists...

There is good evidence that miracles have occurred, and miracles are possible only if he exists."

 

http://xkcd.com/285/

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There are good philosophical reasons for believing God exists.

There are no physical science reasons for believing he does not.

If you define God as an omnipotent being that can't be observed, then science is not a methodology you can use on Him. If something is supernatural, you can't use natural means to verify its existence.

 

There is good evidence that miracles have occurred, and miracles are possible only if he exists.

It sounds like you're defining the term "miracles" in a way that lets you close the loop on a circular logic fallacy. I've never heard of anything that seemed miraculous that couldn't be explained in natural terms.

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I don't understand your disagreement. All I said was that that the physical sciences provide no support for the claim that God doesn't exist.

So you believe because physical science can't prove your beliefs wrong? I'd write up why I believe, but I have many assignments due right now.

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So you believe because physical science can't prove your beliefs wrong?
Do you often take one statement out of a number of statements, and act as if it were the only one?

 

I too have a real life. Sometimes it takes a long time for me to respond.

 

If you define God as an omnipotent being that can't be observed, then science is not a methodology you can use on Him. If something is supernatural, you can't use natural means to verify its existence.

Without a rigorous definition of terms I'm not sure I can agree or disaree with that. But depending on the definitions, you've given a good explanation of why physical sciences can provide no arguments either for or against the existance of God. I'm glad that we can agree on that.

 

 

It sounds like you're defining the term "miracles" in a way that lets you close the loop on a circular logic fallacy.
I fail to see how you get that from what I said.

 

I've never heard of anything that seemed miraculous that couldn't be explained in natural terms.
I have. You might respond by saying that I just haven't thought about it hard enough. I might say the same to you. Edited by chilehed

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Without a rigorous definition of terms I'm not sure I can agree or disaree with that. But depending on the definitions, you've given a good explanation of why physical sciences can provide no arguments either for or against the existance of God. I'm glad that we can agree on that.

If we're talking about the Abrahamic god, He makes a choice to remain outside the observable universe. He no longer appears in any form to mankind. This makes him supernatural as far as science is concerned. Also, the Abrahamic god is supposedly omnipotent, implying that he can supersede His own physical laws. This is also something that makes Him supernatural, and therefore outside of the purview of science.

 

 

I fail to see how you get that from what I said.

There is good evidence that miracles have occurred, and miracles are possible only if he exists.

You define miracles as something only God can provide, and then you say there is evidence that miracles have happened, so God must exist. That is circular logic.

 

You need to give some examples of what you call miracles, and then we can see if science can explain them. Science can't be used to determine if the Abrahamic god exists, but it can be used to explain everything I've ever heard described as a miracle.

 

I have. You might respond by saying that I just haven't thought about it hard enough. I might say the same to you.

Please share. And I would never condescend by responding that you haven't thought hard enough. That would be rude and there's no need for that in a friendly discussion. :)

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I just think that it would be a terribly sad if this is all there was.

 

This is a good reason to hope... but it doesn't justify belief.

 

And Jesus' words are quite agreeable to me. His moral code is something that is quite beautiful.

 

You read a story and it appealed to you... this still does not seem to justify belief.

 

And the beauty of his moral code seems questionable to me... but that is for another thread.

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Chilehed,

If you don't tell us what you think is a miracle then we won't know.

If you don't tell us what you think is archaeological evidence for them we won't know.

 

Also, you say

"you've given a good explanation of why physical sciences can provide no arguments either for or against the existance of God. I'm glad that we can agree on that."

and

"There are no physical science reasons for believing he does not."

 

Please make up your mind.

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There is good evidence that miracles have occurred, and miracles are possible only if he exists.

Can you provide us with any examples of these things you allege are miracles? By "good evidence" do you mean evidence that is supported by the scientific method?

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And Jesus' words are quite agreeable to me. His moral code is something that is quite beautiful.

Except these, I would presume?

 

 

Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has “come not to send peace, but a sword.” Matthew 10:34

 

Jesus says, “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace on earth! No, rather a sword lf you love your father, mother, sister, brother, more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. “The real beauty of this verse is that Jesus demands people truly love him more then they love their own family. I ask you how can we love someone that we can not see or interact with? Love is an emotion pertaining to physical existence not to faithful ideologies, yet God threatens you with Death just because your love for your mother maybe stronger than your love for him. Matthew 10:34

 

Families will be torn apart because of Jesus. “Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." Matthew 10:21

 

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. Matthew 5:17

 

 

 

Jesus advocates murder and death:

 

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. Matthew 11:20

 

Jesus, whose clothes are dipped in blood, has a sharp sword sticking out of his mouth. Thus attired, he treads the winepress of the wrath of God. (The winepress is the actual press that humans shall be put into so that we may be ground up.) Revelations 19:13-15

 

The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire. The rest of us the unchosen will be killed with the sword of Jesus. “An all the fowls were filled with their flesh.” Revelations 19:20-21

 

 

 

Jesus says he is the only way to salvation yet he purposely disillusions us so that we will go to hell:

 

Jesus explains that the reason he speaks in parables is so that no one will understand him, “lest . . . they . . . should understand . . . and should be converted, and I should heal them.” Matthew 13:10-15

 

Jesus explains why he speaks in parables to confuse people so they will go to hell. Mark 4:11-12

 

 

 

Jesus advocates child abuse:

 

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Matthew 15:4-7

 

Abandon your wife and children for Jesus and he’ll give your a big reward. Jesus asks that his followers abandon their children to follow him. To leave your child is abuse, it’s called neglect, pure and simple. Matthew 19:29

 

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark 7:9

 

 

 

A few other things about Jesus:

 

Jesus says that those who have been less fortunate in this life will have it even worse in the life to come. Mark 4:25

 

Jesus sends the devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. Clearly Jesus could have simply sent the devils out, yet he chose instead to place them into pigs and kill them. This is called animal abuse. Mark 5:12-13

 

Jesus kills a fig tree for not bearing figs, even though it was out of season. Jesus must not be as smart as Christians would have us believe, for he was retarded enough to do something this silly. You’d think the son of god (god incarnate) would know that trees don’t bear fruit in dry season. Mark 11:13

 

Luke 12:47 Jesus okays beating slaves.

Edited by iNow

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To simplify things, let's call everything that only a supernatural, omnipotent being could do a "miracle", or "miraculous". And to begin with, until we determine there is no other explanation, let's not call anything else that.

 

I argued with a family member once who insisted that a woman who survived a plane crash on Christmas Eve with only a broken collar bone after falling 10,000 feet was an example of a miracle. That she was the sole survivor and also managed, at the age of 17, to survive long enough to be rescued from the Peruvian jungle was supposed to be further proof. [1]

 

There are many natural explanations for an incident like this. She was still buckled into her seat which slowed her descent and provided a cushion on landing. The rainforest trees also provide a way to slow descent. And the girl had been taught some survival skills by her father so once she landed she was able to make her way to safety. My relative argued that the hand of God was at work here, but I pointed out that it was lightning that struck the plane in the first place, and if it truly was a miracle, why the broken collarbone? Wouldn't an omnipotent, perfect God be able to do that? And I'm not saying that it would have proven divine intervention if she had been completely unharmed; there have been incidences where people survive things like this completely unscathed.

 

But I would like to hear other examples of "miracles", as long as this is part of what constitutes a justification for the existence of God as the OP is asking for.

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To simplify things, let's call everything that only a supernatural, omnipotent being could do a "miracle", or "miraculous". And to begin with, until we determine there is no other explanation, let's not call anything else that.

 

I argued with a family member once who insisted that a woman who survived a plane crash on Christmas Eve with only a broken collar bone after falling 10,000 feet was an example of a miracle. That she was the sole survivor and also managed, at the age of 17, to survive long enough to be rescued from the Peruvian jungle was supposed to be further proof. [1]

 

There are many natural explanations for an incident like this. She was still buckled into her seat which slowed her descent and provided a cushion on landing. The rainforest trees also provide a way to slow descent. And the girl had been taught some survival skills by her father so once she landed she was able to make her way to safety. My relative argued that the hand of God was at work here, but I pointed out that it was lightning that struck the plane in the first place, and if it truly was a miracle, why the broken collarbone? Wouldn't an omnipotent, perfect God be able to do that? And I'm not saying that it would have proven divine intervention if she had been completely unharmed; there have been incidences where people survive things like this completely unscathed.

 

But I would like to hear other examples of "miracles", as long as this is part of what constitutes a justification for the existence of God as the OP is asking for.

Sure, I can give you one. A man at our church was diaganosed with cancer. They held an anointing service and when the doctors went in, no cancer. Ready for another? Our pastor (he wasn't our pastor then), was involved in a severe accident. After several weeks of recovery, he could still not lift more than 25 lbs. Again, the church held an anointing service. The next day, he could lift >100 lbs. You can choose to believe in an alternate explanation, but it seems likely to me that they were miracles. These are not the only examples of modern miracles in our <50 person church.

 

Except these, I would presume?

I picked a random one as an example, honest.

 

Here is what the NIV says for Matthew 13 10-15

 10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

 

 11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

 

   “Though seeing, they do not see;

   though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

 

   14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

 

   “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;

   you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;

   they hardly hear with their ears,

   and they have closed their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes,

   hear with their ears,

   understand with their hearts

and turn, and I would heal them.

 

This says something quite different than what the evil bible quote seems to say. The NIV seems to indicate that the people won't understand because they have calloused, or in other words, hardened, their hearts.

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I disagree completely. I cannot simply choose to believe something... and then I believe!... it just doesn't work that way. I can choose to pretend to believe (maybe in the hope that the belief will become (or at least seem) real later on).

 

I would guess that most people's belief stems from an upbringing that has hammered the idea into their head. Others may have some significant event happen in their lives that they attribute to a higher power's intervention.

 

Personally, I have some ideas... but BELIEF ?... no.

 

I found him. Really. I actually found him. Now, I see him all the time. I split a piece of wood and find him. I turn over a stone and find him. He is just everywhere. He is hard to miss.

 

Sure, I can give you one. A man at our church was diaganosed with cancer. They held an anointing service and when the doctors went in, no cancer. Ready for another? Our pastor (he wasn't our pastor then), was involved in a severe accident. After several weeks of recovery, he could still not lift more than 25 lbs. Again, the church held an anointing service. The next day, he could lift >100 lbs. You can choose to believe in an alternate explanation, but it seems likely to me that they were miracles. These are not the only examples of modern miracles in our <50 person church.

 

 

I picked a random one as an example, honest.

 

Here is what the NIV says for Matthew 13 10-15

 10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

 

 11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

 

   “Though seeing, they do not see;

   though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

 

   14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

 

   “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;

   you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;

   they hardly hear with their ears,

   and they have closed their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes,

   hear with their ears,

   understand with their hearts

and turn, and I would heal them.

 

This says something quite different than what the evil bible quote seems to say. The NIV seems to indicate that the people won't understand because they have calloused, or in other words, hardened, their hearts.

 

 

Yes, it makes perfect sense. You look at something but you do not realize what it is that you are looking at. Your hearts become hardened because you do not realize what it is that you are looking at, all the time, and what you are a part of. Then you will not see.

 

Have a nice day or be part of nice day. Choose one.

Edited by ponderer

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The NIV seems to indicate that the people won't understand because they have calloused, or in other words, hardened, their hearts.

Isn't this a bit like suggesting that the only reason I don't believe in magic or wizards is because I've hardened and calloused my heart against the Harry Potter novels and the Twilight series? The only thing against which I'm calloused is ignorance, nonsense, and the indoctrination which seems so pervasive in religious practice.

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Isn't this a bit like suggesting that the only reason I don't believe in magic or wizards is because I've hardened and calloused my heart against the Harry Potter novels and the Twilight series? The only thing against which I'm calloused is ignorance, nonsense, and the indoctrination which seems so pervasive in religious practice.

 

I would suggest that you want to believe in God, or you would not be on this forum posting. Your posts on this thread suggest it.

 

You want to believe because it makes sense, not because you are being told. You would like someone to make sense of it for you. The things that people who believe in God say, and the writings do not seem to make sense to you. Many of these people take it on faith, but still do not know what it is they see. The messages and rituals are confusing.

 

What part is expected of you? Why should you buy in?

 

When people say things that you cannot assimilate you become more entrenched.

 

You stand on an island of reason that is your understanding and way of holding your world together. You assume that your foundation is sound and that you have a good grasp. All else must grow from this seed and fit in with your world view.

 

You believe that when you have grown that seed to a full understanding of the world you will find that no God exists and you will have proof. All the signs point to this inevitable outcome.

 

However, you are wrong. When you have grown your seed, you will find that in the end, it has not matured and you are old and bitter, but if somehow you can succeed, when you finally understand the universe, you will find God is staring back at you, then you will see him everywhere. You will have your proof, but not the proof you expected. Then will your eyes be open. Are you up to the task, or should you reconsider your expectations now, and consider that you just don't get it?

 

You may seek to have a good day for yourself, or you may seek to be part of a good day for everyone and everything.

 

These are your choices.

Edited by ponderer

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Pretty much everything you just said is wrong.

 

All you've shown is an incapability of understanding an alternative point of view and your desire to proselytize.

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This is a good reason to hope... but it doesn't justify belief.

 

Funny thing is...that IS my justification for belief. So. Where do you go from here? Are you going to attempt to tell me that my reason for believing in a deity isn't my reason?

 

You read a story and it appealed to you... this still does not seem to justify belief.

 

And the beauty of his moral code seems questionable to me... but that is for another thread.

 

I don't really care what you think is justifiable and isn't. It is my reason. No more, no less.

 

The only thing against which I'm calloused is ignorance, nonsense, and the indoctrination which seems so pervasive in religious practice.

 

Which would definitely place you under the "hardened hearts" category. Religion is faith. Blind faith. You see this as ignorance and narrow-mindedness, if I recall correctly. Ergo, your heart is hardened by your own wish for clear, logical mechanisms in something as supernatural as religion.

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I found him. Really. I actually found him. Now, I see him all the time. I split a piece of wood and find him. I turn over a stone and find him. He is just everywhere. He is hard to miss.

 

 

 

 

Yes, it makes perfect sense. You look at something but you do not realize what it is that you are looking at. Your hearts become hardened because you do not realize what it is that you are looking at, all the time, and what you are a part of. Then you will not see.

 

Have a nice day or be part of nice day. Choose one.

Evil bible says that Jesus spoke to them in parables lest they be healed. The NIV says that He spoke to them in parables because they have already hardened their hearts, to me meaning that they would choose not to understand if He spoke to them about heaven directly. I may be wrong, if I am, please explain it to me, I don't want any more than anyone else to follow a false religion.

 

Funny thing is...that IS my justification for belief. So. Where do you go from here? Are you going to attempt to tell me that my reason for believing in a deity isn't my reason?

 

 

 

I don't really care what you think is justifiable and isn't. It is my reason. No more, no less.

 

 

 

Which would definitely place you under the "hardened hearts" category. Religion is faith. Blind faith. You see this as ignorance and narrow-mindedness, if I recall correctly. Ergo, your heart is hardened by your own wish for clear, logical mechanisms in something as supernatural as religion.

Blind faith? Sort of, but not completely. Many sections of the Bible have been supported by archeology and written records. Also, many have been supported through science. (note: not the same as proving false or dealing with miracles.) How so? For instance, times such as when a baby is to be circumcised, how to wash your body after messing with dead people, closely approximate what science seems to recommend today. By history, things such as cities which have been discovered that were mentioned in the Bible. If you want more items, ask me, or better yet, google them or do some other research in sites that claim to support the Bible. Then check with sites that don't on the same things. My conclusion is that there is substantial evidence for the Bible.

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