Prefacing this question with the statement that I in no way support or am sympathetic with Epstein, Maxwell or any of their "clients" but at what age is it appropriate for a female (or male) to engage in sexual activity? It seems to me to be a completely indeterminable thing other than in law but it was my experience (even in the days before the internet) that sex was a major topic of discussion among boys from at least early teens. Is it even possible to have an objective measure to determine psychological "sexual maturity" in one's life?

2 hours ago, npts2020 said:

Prefacing this question with the statement that I in no way support or am sympathetic with Epstein, Maxwell or any of their "clients" but at what age is it appropriate for a female (or male) to engage in sexual activity? It seems to me to be a completely indeterminable thing other than in law but it was my experience (even in the days before the internet) that sex was a major topic of discussion among boys from at least early teens. Is it even possible to have an objective measure to determine psychological "sexual maturity" in one's life?

I think sexual maturity might be better suited for a different thread. I will also say that this questions is only of limited relevance here. The issue is not that a teenager had sex, but rather that a much older and more powerful adult has coerced them to that. Of course, there is no universal rule for appropriateness of such interactions, but modern laws as well as morality have coalesced around key aspects of consent, ability to consent and maturity, disparity in maturity between partners and power imbalance (and potentially more aspects that elude me right now).

When an adult is so far outside the younger person's expected peer group (age groups that one would expect to socially and sexually mingle) the possibility for elder abuse and exploitation increases with the rising disparity in ages. What would very rich and high status, aged individuals want with poor, low status youngsters?

Edited Tuesday at 08:46 AM3 days by StringJunky

5 hours ago, StringJunky said:

When an adult is so far outside the younger person's expected peer group (age groups that one would expect to socially and sexually mingle) the possibility for elder abuse and exploitation increases with the rising disparity in ages. What would very rich and high status, aged individuals want with poor, low status youngsters?

A whole, in some cases, legal industry is built around it.

There's anecdotal evidence of young teenage girls, that are naturally attracted to the sex industry, Tracy (something) is famous in the porn film industry (70's 80's IIRC) bc she was 15 and lied about her age to get a part, no doubt there's a study or two that confirm that.

The only issue here, is the level of coercion involved, with the caveat that there's money to be made.

Just to be clear, I'm not in any way trying to defend "the perp" or devalue the claims of the victim's; due process is the only means to examine the caveats fully and fairly, if only money wasn't involved... 🤑

29 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

A whole, in some cases, legal industry is built around it.

There's anecdotal evidence of young teenage girls, that are naturally attracted to the sex industry, Tracy (something) is famous in the porn film industry (70's 80's IIRC) bc she was 15 and lied about her age to get a part, no doubt there's a study or two that confirm that.

The only issue here, is the level of coercion involved, with the caveat that there's money to be made.

Just to be clear, I'm not in any way trying to defend "the perp" or devalue the claims of the victim's; due process is the only means to examine the caveats fully and fairly, if only money wasn't involved... 🤑

No doubt there are self-motivated, libidinous, exhibitionist young persons, but I would guess they are outliers. Most likely, many are deceived with promises of jobs unrelated to the sex industry. Maxwell lured Virginia Roberts with the promise of training to be a peripatetic masseuse. Maxwell probably impressed her with signs of Epstein's wealth, and she was reeled in.

Edited Tuesday at 03:06 PM3 days by StringJunky

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

No doubt there are self-motivated, libidinous, exhibitionist young persons, but I would guess they are outliers.

Why?

As others have noted, there’s issue of age differential, not just age, but age ties into issues of consent and possible manipulation/coercion. There is a point at which one cannot consent, or be expected make decision of a certain magnitude, and we acknowledge this in other areas of life. In the US you can’t make certain medical decisions or vote until you’re 18 and yet the age of consent in many states is lower, as is the age to get married.

1 hour ago, swansont said:

As others have noted, there’s issue of age differential, not just age, but age ties into issues of consent and possible manipulation/coercion. There is a point at which one cannot consent, or be expected make decision of a certain magnitude, and we acknowledge this in other areas of life. In the US you can’t make certain medical decisions or vote until you’re 18 and yet the age of consent in many states is lower, as is the age to get married.

Not my field, but there is a branch of developmental psychology that studies cognitive and emotional maturation from birth to adulthood. While individual timelines for all that varies on an individual basis, there do seem to be markers that are fairly consistent within a specific culture which highlight vulnerability to manipulation, coercion and abuse by an unscrupulous adult. Probably one solid empirical foundation are studies of those who do suffer mental health problems stemming from such exploitation in their early teens. IOW, it's not just about cognitive tests of situational judgment or impulse control or that sort of thing - it's also about case histories of adolescents and pre-adolescents who have been preyed upon.

My own daughter I didn't have much to worry about, I'm happy to report. There was one manipulative BF when she was quite young, and she ended that chapter by grabbing his motorcycle helmet and whacking him over the head with it. Maybe not the ideal way to resolve differences, but I think it was a useful life lesson for that fellow.

Moderator Note

Some posts have been moved back to the Epstein files thread; this thread is not a discussion of that topic

20 hours ago, CharonY said:

I think sexual maturity might be better suited for a different thread. I will also say that this questions is only of limited relevance here. The issue is not that a teenager had sex, but rather that a much older and more powerful adult has coerced them to that. Of course, there is no universal rule for appropriateness of such interactions, but modern laws as well as morality have coalesced around key aspects of consent, ability to consent and maturity, disparity in maturity between partners and power imbalance (and potentially more aspects that elude me right now).

I agree with all of this but the inquiry is sincere because I know plenty of people who have regretted sexual relations they have had in their years well beyond being a teenager or young adult. AFAIK as soon as you turn 18 you are fair game, ready or not, but are individuals any more ready or better off by waiting much beyond the beginning of their curiosity?

1 hour ago, npts2020 said:

AFAIK as soon as you turn 18 you are fair game, ready or not, but are individuals any more ready or better off by waiting much beyond the beginning of their curiosity?

That is an entirely different conversation and is a matter of individual growth and maturity. It has nothing to do with either the original OP and also significantly veers of from the topic of the split, which seemed to reference abuse related to age. There, the other elements, such as coercion, prostitution, trafficking, consent and other things are more relevant.

Where I am when both (all?) participants are near in age and both 'underage' that is treated differently to someone adult/older and someone who is underage. 16 years is considered 'able to consent' and above 18 is legally adult - enough of a difference to make 'near in age' an uncertain defense where one is legally adult. Which is not to say boys of similar age can't be using coercion; I've encountered claims that the greatest risk of sexual assaults are from others who are also underage, which seems likely to be true.

I think the ability of some older men (mostly men but not exclusively) to lure and persuade the young and inexperienced should not be underestimated. The extent to which their mixed feelings, including sexual curiosity can be manipulated and appearance of consent contrived should not be underestimated.

As an aside I made the mistake of reading some of Marquis de Sade's writings - causing abandonment of any absolute 'burning books is wrong' principles, that was a book deserving of banning and burning imo; I could not read more than a couple of chapters - truly sickening - but amongst what I did skim over was a character renowned for his ability to turn innocent underage virgins into 'willing' sex slaves. I suspect it was a book that inspired some accomplished abusers.

6 hours ago, CharonY said:

... the topic of the split, which seemed to reference abuse related to age. There, the other elements, such as coercion, prostitution, trafficking, consent and other things are more relevant.

... which are all abstract constructions specific to a particular culture (ie yours) at a particular time in its development (ie now).

Case in point is my mother-in-law, Catherine, a charming and intelligent woman now in her late seventies who believes that she may have been twelve when she was married to a man more than double her age.

In conversation, it is clear that she remembers her husband with great affection and that her sole regret is that he died before his time leaving her with eight children to raise on her own...

... or rather, with the help of relatives and neighbours in the community - a support structure that most members of this site do not have access to.

She is happy that her five daughters all had better educational opportunities and the chance to experience more of life before settling down into marriage. But she herself does not feel hard done by. It was simply the way things were done back then. And Igbo culture has a far longer history of stable continuity than that of those outsiders who may criticise some of its traditions.

Cultural relativism is a tricky subject with all sorts of pitfalls to trap the unwary into being unable to condemn any behaviour as intrinsically 'bad'.

But we must ask ourselves what might be intrinsically 'good' about enforcing a mandatory, possibly unnatural, extended period of sexual abstinence between the onset of puberty and an arbitrary 'age of consent'. The Marxist inside me suggests a socioeconomic force to produce a well-schooled pool of skilled labour to drive the ever-increasing technological demands of the military-industrial complex.

The Anarchist just says I'm fortunate my preferences in the day ran to strong, full-figured women in their prime. No one ever really objected to that.

While by law anyone over the age of 18 is an adult (at least this is the case in the United Kingdom), I think it can in some cases be up to age 25 for people with some disabilities in terms of the law.

However, there now seems to be evidence that the human brain does not fully develop until later (as in after the teenage years)

Maturation of the adolescent brain

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3621648/

I am not an expert at this, but some of the topic did get me thinking that I have read about this before. Just sharing.

Paul

2 hours ago, sethoflagos said:

... which are all abstract constructions specific to a particular culture (ie yours) at a particular time in its development (ie now).

Case in point is my mother-in-law, Catherine, a charming and intelligent woman now in her late seventies who believes that she may have been twelve when she was married to a man more than double her age.

In conversation, it is clear that she remembers her husband with great affection and that her sole regret is that he died before his time leaving her with eight children to raise on her own...

... or rather, with the help of relatives and neighbours in the community - a support structure that most members of this site do not have access to.

She is happy that her five daughters all had better educational opportunities and the chance to experience more of life before settling down into marriage. But she herself does not feel hard done by. It was simply the way things were done back then. And Igbo culture has a far longer history of stable continuity than that of those outsiders who may criticise some of its traditions.

Cultural relativism is a tricky subject with all sorts of pitfalls to trap the unwary into being unable to condemn any behaviour as intrinsically 'bad'.

But we must ask ourselves what might be intrinsically 'good' about enforcing a mandatory, possibly unnatural, extended period of sexual abstinence between the onset of puberty and an arbitrary 'age of consent'. The Marxist inside me suggests a socioeconomic force to produce a well-schooled pool of skilled labour to drive the ever-increasing technological demands of the military-industrial complex.

The Anarchist just says I'm fortunate my preferences in the day ran to strong, full-figured women in their prime. No one ever really objected to that.

The problem is, sexual maturity comes with a drive to provide for the children, which bleeds into/from the culture, i.e. the most powerful male available, is the most desirable.

Our culture confounds that drive with a moral imperative to protect the children from themselves, but a nebulous definition of a child, it's further confused by our natural bias towards plenty/money equals power, so the money maker's are the most desirable.

It's ultimately anecdotal evidence for each girl to know, and each man to justify.

Edited Wednesday at 01:20 PM2 days by dimreepr

7 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

i.e. the most powerful male available, is the most desirable.

In who's universe? In my modest experience, most women would seem to prefer a mate who doesn't slap them around all the time.

Just now, sethoflagos said:

In who's universe? In my modest experience, most women would seem to prefer a mate who doesn't slap them around all the time.

I'd agree, when did I say otherwise?

Maybe that's your cultural bias, assuming a powerful male is violent.

32 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Maybe that's your cultural bias, assuming a powerful male is violent.

Perhaps the concept of a ''gentle giant' is one of yours.

I am however embedded in a culture where dowries are payable, and this does put a particular slant on things, providing as it does a financial imperative for families to protect their daughters from ''spoilage'' prior to marriage. Perhaps that's a more convincing origin of these social conventions than the forces of industrialisation I mentioned above,

32 minutes ago, sethoflagos said:

Perhaps the concept of a ''gentle giant' is one of yours.

Nope, size is imaterial unless we're discussing Godzilla v King kong,,,

On 2/16/2026 at 9:17 PM, npts2020 said:

at what age is it appropriate for a female (or male) to engage in sexual activity

I think it varies with the individual, but the conundrum is that people who aren’t mature enough to decide might decide it’s appropriate. Which is probably why it’s left as a legal determination, much like age limits for voting and drinking.

6 hours ago, sethoflagos said:

... which are all abstract constructions specific to a particular culture (ie yours) at a particular time in its development (ie now).

In a practical sense, laws are kind of a general consensus that reflects that current societal situation. But given that this thread was a spin-off from an Epstein thread, I think it is fair to assume that at least the initial idea was talking about it in an American-Western context.

But you are right that this topic can and has been approached from a variety of angles and contexts and I appreciate your comment in that regard.

3 hours ago, sethoflagos said:

I am however embedded in a culture where dowries are payable, and this does put a particular slant on things, providing as it does a financial imperative for families to protect their daughters from ''spoilage'' prior to marriage. Perhaps that's a more convincing origin of these social conventions than the forces of industrialisation I mentioned above,

With the risk of falling into the trope of overapplying simplified concepts, this seems a very common thread in many societies and is deeply rooted in patrilineal (and thus patriarchial) societies, resulting in, to some degree, commodification of women. Interestingly, socioeconomic shifts as a consequence of the industrial revolution has changed this custom in Europe. However, as you mentioned, they are practiced elsewhere in a variety of forms, ranging from more symbolic to creating extreme economic pressures on families.

One should also not overlook that religious elements also play a role, though there are likely a lot of intersections with other customs (including dowries). It should also be noted that in many cultures, there is a difference between boys and girls when it comes to experiencing their sexuality. In part there is of course the risk of pregnancy, but there are also for example feminist theories out there that look into power structures of societies as an important element.

Deleted. Cathartic post ran off-topic.

Edited Wednesday at 08:49 PM2 days by sethoflagos
Thought better of it

Seems like I opened a can of worms since I see little other than generalities. Was hoping to see at least one or two things that could be pointed to which would define this line of demarcation between being "ready" or not for sex. When might one be considered mature enough to be wiling and not having been coerced or intimidated (which can happen at any age) into sex? Is it really just up to the individual/society or are there specific criteria that could/should be met?

On 2/19/2026 at 2:37 PM, npts2020 said:

Seems like I opened a can of worms since I see little other than generalities. Was hoping to see at least one or two things that could be pointed to which would define this line of demarcation between being "ready" or not for sex. When might one be considered mature enough to be wiling and not having been coerced or intimidated (which can happen at any age) into sex? Is it really just up to the individual/society or are there specific criteria that could/should be met?

That's a good question, do you remember when you were mature enough to make a decision?

On 2/16/2026 at 9:17 PM, npts2020 said:

what age is it appropriate for a female (or male) to engage in sexual activity?

Perhaps the question should be at what age is it appropriate to become a parent, since that’s a common and predictable result of sexual activity?