I would like to try again to explain my opinion regarding the way to reach freedom

First some facts and opinions and info mixed:

• If you are religious, you obey to rules others made, not to your feelings/thoughts, you can't prove a god exists and created us and wants you to apply the rules of your religion.

• Human creates enjoyable tools and art.

• Humans can help each others for entertainment, like to discover new planets, which is not vital.

• Humans can help each others for vitality like emergency physicians, who imo are heroes.

• Living in society can be satisfying, having friends, love, is great.

• If you have a job you like, you have a secure situation, earn a lot of money, you can live a very comfortable and satisfying life.

• If you have no money, there is a possibility that you are sad, and you struggle to wash yourself, find food, etc.

• If you have very small money, a job you don't like, there is a possibility that you are happy anyway.

• You can be rich today, and become poor tomorrow.

• You can be worried about having no money, and you can also not worry about it, maybe because you think you will always have some.

• A wild animal that breaks his leg, gets a disease, can't go somewhere where they get healed, because they didn't evolve in a way that provides such service.

• All lands on the planet are claimed by multiple organizations called governments.

• Governments enforces rules, if a human on its land don't apply them, he get punished.

• There are big places on earth that even if you don't apply these rules, you are so remote, that the people who makes the govs' rules being applied, police, will not see, then not punish you.

• An animal can live alone

• An animal can live in a group, where there can be a dominant

• An animal doesn't pay to eat, neither to sleep, his body is suited for his environment, and he has the knowledge to find food.

• Long time ago, when a human broke his leg, got a disease, he could easily die because they didn't evolve as we are today, with the services we offer.

• A human can learn to build tools from scratch, like snares, to hunt

• A human can learn to recognize wild edibles

• There are places on Earth where the water is so clean that you can drink it without filtering it.

• A human can make fire without lighter, by friction.

• A human can know how to meet his basic needs without money, and also enjoy living in society with money and work.

• A human can enjoy practicing living out of society, and also enjoy living in society.

Imagine, you had the knowledge to meet your basic needs, comfortably, without money

Imagine you know a big, remote, suited area to practice that

I believe this is the best freedom you could get

This doesn't mean you would have to spend your life alone like that

It's just that if you were able to do this, you could reach the biggest freedom, when you want to.

2 questions:

Can you mention a bigger/better freedom?

Isn't it a shame/stupid to expect freedom on a land claimed by a government, where police can see you?

####

Maybe we don't have the same expectations from freedom

Sorry, I can't help myself :)

https://youtu.be/lLCEUpIg8rE

Edited December 28, 2025Dec 28 by Jacek

53 minutes ago, raphaelh42 said:

Imagine, you had the knowledge to meet your basic needs, comfortably, without money

Imagine you know a big, remote, suited area to practice that

But imagining is all this is. Can you identify such a place?

53 minutes ago, raphaelh42 said:

Isn't it a shame/stupid to expect freedom on a land claimed by a government, where police can see you?

####

Maybe we don't have the same expectations from freedom

And not having the same expectations renders the question moot.

I suspect most people view this within the constraints of living within a modern society, rather than some unobtainable idyllic daydream

7 hours ago, swansont said:

But imagining is all this is. Can you identify such a place?

I think the most suited place to practice that is the amazon rainforest because:

• it's huge, you could always go further/deeper if you ever encounter police (yes you could also encounter a killer and have no signal to call them so they save you lol)

• you can't die from freezing no matter the period of the year (but i understood you can get hypothermia if you stay under the rain too long)

• there is a lot of water to fish (but beware of contaminated places because of garimpeiros)

• there is animals to hunt and wild edibles to find

• some people drink some creeks' water directly when they know it's ok (but you can and should learn to build a water filter from scratch, and recipient to boil from scratch too)

  • if you want cleaner water, then there is alaska i guess, but it's not suited for our (new?) bodies because without fire/big clothes, you just die......

• you need big preparation/knowledge to prevent troubles because of insects (and even some spiky trees it seems), i think the only animal who could/would really kill you there are snakes.

I really see no better place

I've slept 2 weeks in there recently, in my case i had a bagback with tools (my knowledge/skills is not the subject on this thread)

But I felt so free, I could do like whatever I want, make fire, make noise to cut trees to build stuff, did fish, washed in creeks...

Since, I don't feel the same anymore when I live in society because I know this place exists

7 hours ago, swansont said:

I suspect most people view this within the constraints of living within a modern society, rather than some unobtainable idyllic daydream

I agree seems to me when people think about freedom, they think about having it while being in the society

But learning to meet your essential needs without money is not unobtainable, although I agree it maybe can seem very difficult... I mean it is...

Freedom is so precious, that when i see people expecting to become able to reach it thanks to money, in society, that annoys/disgust me

How can you expect to be really happy, feel really secure, if you can't feel free :(

I hope that everyone i've hurt with this subject on Phi for All's thread are now understanding what i meant

Edited December 28, 2025Dec 28 by raphaelh42

25 minutes ago, raphaelh42 said:

I've slept 2 weeks in there recently, in my case i had a bagback with tools (my knowledge/skills is not the subject on this thread)

But I felt so free, I could do like whatever I want, make fire, make noise to cut trees to build stuff, did fish, washed in creeks...

Since, I don't feel the same anymore when I live in society because I know this place exists

Having spent a year working in and exploring a deeply remote part of the Gabonese rainforest, I know this feeling well. There's nothing quite as liberating as walking solo a couple of kilometres down a forest track at dawn, guessing how recently something else had been there from the strength of their scent, and the freshness of their scat.

But I also found out how it feels to have an arm temporarily paralysed from the bite of an unknown species of spider; having my vehicle charged by an irate forest buffalo; being caught unawares by a young bull elephant taking a paddle 20 paces to the right of where I was fishing a remote pool for tilapia.

Even out birdwatching here in Nigeria, I've turned to find my route back to the wankpanzer blocked by a large spotted hyaena.

This type of freedom comes at a cost: the imminent and quite real threat of being removed from the gene pool. Do you feel lucky?

54 minutes ago, sethoflagos said:

Having spent a year working in and exploring a deeply remote part of the Gabonese rainforest, I know this feeling well. There's nothing quite as liberating as walking solo a couple of kilometres down a forest track at dawn, guessing how recently something else had been there from the strength of their scent, and the freshness of their scat.

But I also found out how it feels to have an arm temporarily paralysed from the bite of an unknown species of spider; having my vehicle charged by an irate forest buffalo; being caught unawares by a young bull elephant taking a paddle 20 paces to the right of where I was fishing a remote pool for tilapia.

Even out birdwatching here in Nigeria, I've turned to find my route back to the wankpanzer blocked by a large spotted hyaena.

This type of freedom comes at a cost: the imminent and quite real threat of being removed from the gene pool. Do you feel lucky?

Can happen anywhere.I was walking across the field in Ireland when I noticed a crowd of animals approching me very fast.I retreated to a nearby ditch and was leapt over by a pack of hunting dogs following the scent laid down by a member of the local drag hunt.

They were too engrossed to notice me, hunkered down in the ditch but I assumed they would have made short work of me if they had .

My aunt ,whose husband was a hydrologist for the UN in N Africa told me that the roads were sometimes block by rivers of ants (migratory?)

And a schoolfriend suffered whiplash when a kangaroo escaped from Stanway Zoo and landed on his car.

So many exits ,only one ending.

2 hours ago, raphaelh42 said:

I think the most suited place to practice that is the amazon rainforest because:

…

I really see no better place

But it’s in a region claimed/controlled by government

2 hours ago, raphaelh42 said:

I've slept 2 weeks in there recently, in my case i had a bagback with tools

But your backpack and tools were not fashioned by you, or presumably made by hand, from scratch, by anybody.

2 hours ago, raphaelh42 said:

(my knowledge/skills is not the subject on this thread)

It actually is. You are claiming people should do things, but if you aren’t able to do them why is it reasonable to expect others to do them? It’s like calling on people to make sacrifices you aren’t willing to make yourself.

4 hours ago, swansont said:

But it’s in a region claimed/controlled by government

Yes I acknowledged in my first post that all lands on earth are claimed by governments, and that in some places it's so big and remote that police can't see you to enforce govs' rules, allowing you to imo reach the biggest freedom

4 hours ago, swansont said:

But your backpack and tools were not fashioned by you, or presumably made by hand, from scratch, by anybody.

Yes I agree but my experience of the concept/way of freedom (let's call it real freedom here) I did share is not the thing to debate about, the thing is the real freedom itself

I don't believe I should have shared this concept only when managing to practice it completely, with no tools at all

4 hours ago, swansont said:

It actually is. You are claiming people should do things, but if you aren’t able to do them why is it reasonable to expect others to do them? It’s like calling on people to make sacrifices you aren’t willing to make yourself.

I disagree, i think it is not, I evoked a concept, the concept is the subject, not my experience of it

We can debate about the real freedom i mentioned but I will not about the fact I practice it good or bad, or not at all

And i didn't say people should do it, i just shared an idea, an opinion, and until now it seems nobody offered a better/bigger concept of freedom than the one I shared

And I made the sacrifice, I struggled a lot to learn the basics, and once again, the idea is not to spent your life like that, but to debate about the fact of learning to do it, to reach the real freedom

Edited December 28, 2025Dec 28 by raphaelh42

6 hours ago, raphaelh42 said:

Freedom is so precious, that when i see people expecting to become able to reach it thanks to money, in society, that annoys/disgust me

This seems like a strawman argument. Did anyone actually claim that money makes them more free, or is this something you've seen before that frustrates you in a general way?

In my thread, I tried to make it clear that I think the right rules actually lead to meaningful freedom in a society, not money.

6 hours ago, raphaelh42 said:

How can you expect to be really happy, feel really secure, if you can't feel free

I think this is where you and I differ. You have a definition of freedom that doesn't make sense to me, so I think of it as false. You imagine freedom only comes if YOU are alone and free to do whatever pops into your head. Being alone seems secure to you, whereas I see it as an unnecessarily dangerous situation, especially when the topic of freedom only makes sense in a society. If you were the only person on Earth, you could do whatever you want. Is that a meaningful freedom to you? To me, freedom only really becomes an issue when people try to live together.

4 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

This seems like a strawman argument. Did anyone actually claim that money makes them more free, or is this something you've seen before that frustrates you in a general way?

Hmm this is something i feel I see everyday, everyone wants to be happy and free, but i feel people only want to achieve inside society/civilization

And to leave in society, you need money, it's like the "pass" to be in

So I conclude people want to reach freedom only thanks to money, and this is what frustrates me, and makes me feel lonely

9 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Being alone seems secure to you, whereas I see it as an unnecessarily dangerous situation, especially when the topic of freedom only makes sense in a society.

Hmm honestly no I feel more secure, less danger, when i'm in society

During my experiment of the real freedom, each steps, i spent many energy to watch out for snakes not to die, but i felt really free

Or no, i felt ~75% free, because if i didn't have the tools in my bagpack, obtained thanks to money, i couldn't have practice

But I know that thanks to the knowledge i currently miss, i could have spend the time even more comfortably, with 0 tools, e.g. i wouldn't have need a lighter if i knew how to make friction fire

I'm not sure to understand, freedom makes no sense when alone?

14 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

If you were the only person on Earth, you could do whatever you want. Is that a meaningful freedom to you?

I could try to do whatever I want, maybe i would fail and struggle for everything

And i could not see people when i want to, hmm i guess it would be freedom yes, but it would be sad to know you have no choice to remain alone forever because nobody else exists

16 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

To me, freedom only really becomes an issue when people try to live together.

I totally agree!! ^^

Btw I recommend this hilarious tv series: The Last Man on Earth

19 hours ago, raphaelh42 said:

Imagine, you had the knowledge to meet your basic needs, comfortably, without money

Imagine you know a big, remote, suited area to practice that

I believe this is the best freedom you could get

This doesn't mean you would have to spend your life alone like that

It's just that if you were able to do this, you could reach the biggest freedom, when you want to.

This works on a planet with something like 50 million hunter-gatherers spread across the more temperate regions where there are reliable sources of fresh water, plant foods and game. 160 X that population, 8 billion, cannot achieve that type of free living as a HG. Especially with so many regions ecologically compromised. You describe something only a wealthy person owning a large preserve of wild land could ever hope to do. If you, not being wealthy, went deep into the Amazon rainforest, you would be constantly having to hide from illegal miners and poachers, law enforcement patrols, and unfriendly tribal groups in some areas. That would not feel free for very long. And you would lack the lifetime of experience that native tribes have and which allows them to get adequate nutrition and avoid dangers.

Edited December 28, 2025Dec 28 by TheVat

4 hours ago, raphaelh42 said:

Hmm this is something i feel I see everyday, everyone wants to be happy and free, but i feel people only want to achieve inside society/civilization

And to leave in society, you need money, it's like the "pass" to be inon

So I conclude people want to reach freedom only thanks to money, and this is what frustrates me, and makes me feel lonely

This seems to be a self-inflicted frustration. You haven't achieved an expected level of happiness in a society, so you assume nobody can. They want happiness and freedom but you think that's impossible if they live with others. It's affecting your whole outlook.

You absolutely don't NEED money to either live in or leave a society, it just makes everything easier. What you NEED in a society is a skill others find valuable. The work you do is enough to feed, clothe, and house you if you can find those willing to trade. You can fix my car? I'll buy the parts, you can stay in my guest room for a week and I'll even feed you. Arrange something like this 51 more times this year and you don't need money.

Again, I don't know where this focus on money comes from. To me, freedom to pursue happiness requires myself and others to follow reasonable rules when interacting with each other. It's not my ability to strike out on my own if I feel like it. It's not my ability to say anything in public I feel like saying. It's not my ability to own a weapon. If the government in the US took away all the weapons and made it illegal to own one, I would feel freer to interact more with my society. The right to bear arms isn't a freedom to me, but a lack of them would be.

3 hours ago, TheVat said:

160 X that population, 8 billion, cannot achieve that type of free living as a HG.

If we all 8 billion suddenly wanted to go in the Amazon rainforest to do that yes i agree that would be a problem but that is not the case, most people want to live in cities and villages

3 hours ago, TheVat said:

You describe something only a wealthy person owning a large preserve of wild land could ever hope to do.

I totally disagree, if believe that if you have the knowledge, you can be able to live comfortably in the Amazon, without owning the land where you sleep and hunt, because it's very huge there

3 hours ago, TheVat said:

If you, not being wealthy, went deep into the Amazon rainforest, you would be constantly having to hide from illegal miners and poachers, law enforcement patrols, and unfriendly tribal groups in some areas. That would not feel free for very long.

I agree that probably regularly you could see some garimpeiros, more rarely some forest rangers, and some natives who think you are evil

But you will see nobody most of the time for consecutive days

If the real freedom came with no price, which a part of it is danger, that would be too easy, and when it's too easy, it doesn't seem to pay

########## ########## ##########

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

You haven't achieved an expected level of happiness in a society, so you assume nobody can.

I agree I haven't and I struggle to imagine how ones can if not knowing to live alone in the wild

In fact i guess i just can't understand how you can really feel happy and free in society if you can live only thanks to it

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

You absolutely don't NEED money to either live in or leave a society, it just makes everything easier.

I totally agree, I shouldn't have talked about living in society, and stayed focused just on freedom

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

To me, freedom to pursue happiness requires myself and others to follow reasonable rules when interacting with each other.

Hmm in the end I guess there is two main types of freedom, the one in society which evolves according to what the others do (which imo is not really freedom but just trying to feel free)

And the other one which occurs when alone in the wild, which i called real freedom here

Edited December 29, 2025Dec 29 by raphaelh42

One of the problems with this discussion is that "freedom" is a pretty ill-defined term, dependent on subjective interpretations. As pointed out by Phi, my "freedom" to own a gun impinges on others' "freedom" to feel secure. So which is free? The whole point of living in society is to give up some freedom to do a few things in exchange for the freedom to pursue other interests. I don't think it is just coincidence that the most organized (generally those with the most laws) societies are also the most technologically advanced, something that contributes greatly to my "freedom". Because of this abstract thing known as "money" (which is really only a representation of other things) I have to follow a bunch of rules to live in a society that uses it. However, it also makes me free to do things besides provide for my basic needs, or even have to be much concerned about them. I have done survival expeditions for up to a week and being comfortable is no trivial matter, even if you don't need a fire. EVERYONE loses weight on these outings because of decreased calorie intake and increased physical activity and is unsustainable over time. If you ever saw the tv show "Naked and Afraid", very few of the participants who actually even make it to the end of their allotted time there (usually 20 days) are doing any more than "limping across the finish" and would not likely survive long term and they are people who supposedly have some survival skills beforehand. Personally, I am fairly confident in my survival skills but feel a lot freer not having to use them and kicking back to read "The Great Monkey Trial" at night or looking at sunspots through a telescope at the Franklin Institute while on a bus trip to Philadelphia.

I guess to sum up, I feel freer having more choices. Living in a society facilitates that, whereas an individual has little freedom other than how to provide for their basic needs.

On 12/28/2025 at 2:13 AM, raphaelh42 said:

Imagine, you had the knowledge to meet your basic needs, comfortably, without money

Imagine you know a big, remote, suited area to practice that

I believe this is the best freedom you could get

This doesn't mean you would have to spend your life alone like that

It's just that if you were able to do this, you could reach the biggest freedom, when you want to.

Your being very arrogant, you seem to be denying all of us any chance of freedom.

You need to imagine someone like Dr Hawkins, he is entirely dependent on other's for 'everything', right down to his voice; but he's freer than you ever could be, bc he accepts his prison/limits, he escapes in the only way he can, think about it... 😉

1 hour ago, npts2020 said:

One of the problems with this discussion is that "freedom" is a pretty ill-defined term, dependent on subjective interpretations. As pointed out by Phi, my "freedom" to own a gun impinges on others' "freedom" to feel secure. So which is free? The whole point of living in society is to give up some freedom to do a few things in exchange for the freedom to pursue other interests. I don't think it is just coincidence that the most organized (generally those with the most laws) societies are also the most technologically advanced, something that contributes greatly to my "freedom". Because of this abstract thing known as "money" (which is really only a representation of other things) I have to follow a bunch of rules to live in a society that uses it. However, it also makes me free to do things besides provide for my basic needs, or even have to be much concerned about them. I have done survival expeditions for up to a week and being comfortable is no trivial matter, even if you don't need a fire. EVERYONE loses weight on these outings because of decreased calorie intake and increased physical activity and is unsustainable over time. If you ever saw the tv show "Naked and Afraid", very few of the participants who actually even make it to the end of their allotted time there (usually 20 days) are doing any more than "limping across the finish" and would not likely survive long term and they are people who supposedly have some survival skills beforehand. Personally, I am fairly confident in my survival skills but feel a lot freer not having to use them and kicking back to read "The Great Monkey Trial" at night or looking at sunspots through a telescope at the Franklin Institute while on a bus trip to Philadelphia.

I guess to sum up, I feel freer having more choices. Living in a society facilitates that, whereas an individual has little freedom other than how to provide for their basic needs.

It seems that the problem is not with the concept of freedom, as there are many different freedoms and personal values attached to them. The problem is rather the attribute, "real."

2 hours ago, npts2020 said:

I have done survival expeditions for up to a week and being comfortable is no trivial matter, even if you don't need a fire.

Did you have a bag full of tools like i had? In that case, I agree it can be quite accessible to spend the time comfortably

If you didn't, i would love to hear about how you did meet your basic needs

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

You need to imagine someone like Dr Hawkins, he is entirely dependent on other's for 'everything', right down to his voice; but he's freer than you ever could be, bc he accepts his prison/limits, he escapes in the only way he can, think about it... 😉

Yes unfortunately even with just a disabled arm, i don't think you could achieve the concept of freedom i evoked

I know if you can somehow hack your brain/convince yourself of something, nothing is more powerful than that

In my case i'm not interested about that, i think if tomorrow my body got very damaged,i would not be interested in living anymore and i would try to intentionally die, if i have the chance to even be able to move to achieve it. If i had children, i would probably want to stay alive to still try to help them

1 hour ago, Genady said:

It seems that the problem is not with the concept of freedom, as there are many different freedoms and personal values attached to them. The problem is rather the attribute, "real."

I guess i should have say the "raw" freedom instead of "real"...

I wanted to explain a freedom that is not a package of concessions to remain with others

Edited December 29, 2025Dec 29 by raphaelh42

54 minutes ago, raphaelh42 said:

I wanted to explain a freedom that is not a package of concessions to remain with others

Concessions like "Don't pee in the streets", "drive in your own lane", and "put your litter in a trash can"? Which concessions in this "package" are distasteful to you?

You're very jaded. "Remain with others" is how you view social interaction and cooperation? No offense, but I think you've decided against society and are now cherry-picking the worst aspects while ignoring the clear benefits civilisation gives us.

15 hours ago, raphaelh42 said:

In fact i guess i just can't understand how you can really feel happy and free in society if you can live only thanks to it

How happy do you think a lone lion is?

Unless of course he's lucky enough to bump into a lone human enjoying his freedom from the shackles of companionship.

I take @Genady point about defining what values constitute "real" freedom. As others have gone into at considerable length, a lot of freedoms (when defined as capabilities to do things) originate from being social animals who can work cooperatively and thus don't have to spend all their time fending off starvation and danger. Capability freedoms (e.g. I want to climb Everest) are launched from platforms of freedom from bare subsistence. Then there are expression freedoms (e.g. artists or social critics), which depends not only on a social web to ease subsistence, but also on cultural structures that allow challenging, fringey, cringey themes to reach a public. Related category of freedoms might be spiritual freedoms, which allow choices within a social structure as to how one finds meaning in life, the universe, etc. And there's freedom from political oppression, which influences all the others I mentioned in the context of modern nation-states. If you start to look at how these different categories interact, maybe you can get an idea of what freedoms have value and are real.

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

Which concessions in this "package" are distasteful to you?

None of the one you mentioned

3 hours ago, Phi for All said:

You're very jaded. "Remain with others" is how you view social interaction and cooperation? No offense, but I think you've decided against society and are now cherry-picking the worst aspects while ignoring the clear benefits civilisation gives us.

There is the freedom alone in the wild, where it's about knowledge to be comfortable

And there is the the freedom in society, where it's about adapting to gov's rules

I acknowledged in my first message that society has enjoyable art and tools to offer, and i also acknowledged that having friends and love is great.

1 hour ago, sethoflagos said:

How happy do you think a lone lion is?

I think a lion that has no other choice but to be alone, is sad.

And i believe a human that has no other choice than being with others, is not free

Edited December 29, 2025Dec 29 by raphaelh42

6 hours ago, Genady said:

It seems that the problem is not with the concept of freedom, as there are many different freedoms and personal values attached to them. The problem is rather the attribute, "real."

No, the concept is part of the problem because it’s a personal preference being presented as an objective truth.

1 hour ago, raphaelh42 said:

None of the one you mentioned

I wish there was some way to find out what distasteful package of concessions you were referring to.

50 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I wish there was some way to find out what distasteful package of concessions you were referring to.

I guess we all have things we want to do when living in society but are not free to do because it's illegal

what is it in your case?

everyone feel free to share :)

Edited December 29, 2025Dec 29 by raphaelh42

2 minutes ago, raphaelh42 said:

  54 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I wish there was some way to find out what distasteful package of concessions you were referring to.

I guess we all have things we want to do when living in society but are not free to do because it's illegal

So, what illegal things do you want to do in the Amazonian rainforest that you can't do in the privacy of your own home?