Which side will Canada be on in the forthcoming second US Civil War ?

That's it. the question.

24 minutes ago, studiot said:

Which side will Canada be on in the forthcoming second US Civil War ?

That's it. the question.

Well the first civil war as it affected the Canadian colonies then is described here (a bit of a syopsis)

https://thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/american-civil-war

It feels like ,if there is a second civil war in the States that Canada may not have the option of remaining neutral based on that precedent..

Interesting that there were sympathies in the colonies with the Confederates even though more "Canadians" fought for the North.

(all new to me.I wish it didn't seem relevant)

From the link apparently Ulysses S Grant was sympathetic to Manifest Destiny which laid claim to Canada.

Edited October 31Oct 31 by geordief

BC will take in refugees, but only hipsters. Alberta will try to join the red states, First Nations in Alberta will let them join but keep the land beneath them. Saskatchewan will try to announce that they will join, but get too drunk to remember which side, but to be fair, no one remembers Saskatchewan. Or Manitoba.

Ontario will write a stern letter to both sides, asking them to cut it out, and Doug will post a mean meme. But they are too busy fighting their own war against bicycles, speed cameras, and Toronto. Quebec will use that as an excuse to cut themselves from English-speaking Canada. According to a study New Brunswick is too busy hating itself. PEI will get ready for war, all three of them. But they have to go fishing on the weekend.

Newfoundland and Labrador: they made an oral commitment. But since no one can understand them it is unclear what it was. The territories send the most ferocious moose and bear-mounted force but they will not arrive before the end of the war.

But realistically, Canada would likely close the borders and hunker down, like everyone else. Either that, or just burn down the White House again. Trump has already started.

58 minutes ago, studiot said:

Which side will Canada be on in the forthcoming second US Civil War ?

The North

Tempted to neg-rep your post CharonY, but I was laughing so hard I kept missing the down arrow and hit the up instead.

For quite some time, I have been wondering what would happen if the blue states seceded from the US to Canada.

54 minutes ago, MigL said:

Tempted to neg-rep your post CharonY, but I was laughing so hard I kept missing the down arrow and hit the up instead.

I had that same problem!

I've wondered if the republic would fragment several ways, with a west coast which joins up with BC, and a Northeast with Quebec and Toronto, wherever that is.

If BC is taking hipster refugees, please know that I am hip, Daddio, not like these squares down here in Dullsville. I love hanging with all the cool hepcats, if you can dig it, man.

Many thanks to those who replied as they made me realise something I never thought of.

Not all canadians will want to to do the same thing.

Perhaps I should have said Canada or included Canadians.

Incidentally there is a small piece of Canada near me just over the county boundary in Devon.

The Maple leaf flies over Wolford Chapel, which was given to Canada on the return of the first Governor.

They still hold services there and there is a visitors book.

Wolford Chapel

Tsh, how depressing, talk of another civil war.

If you would have let us keep running the show you would not be having these problems.

If you need us to step in, just let us know ;)

Is the situation so bad that folks are seriously discussing a civil war in the US?

PS: Canadian army is tiny and only capable of waging gorilla warfare if the push comes to shove.

Edited October 31Oct 31 by Otto Kretschmer

12 minutes ago, pinball1970 said:

If you need us to step in, just let us know ;)

Certainly nowhere near as bad as the US ( or many other places ), but you can't pretend things are running smoothly over there. Except for the area where @studiot lives; he always posts pics of idyllic little hamlets with wooden bridges and churches.
But maybe if you guys re-join the EU, and get rid of the nutbars in your Government, who long for the former empire, and think England can go it alone ...

13 minutes ago, MigL said:

But maybe if you guys re-join the EU, and get rid of the nutbars

+1 and touche.

The right rises and falls as the political landscape changes here and Brexit was certainly a big faux pas, and arguably the beginning of the polarization we are seeing now.

A lot more people in the states and they have guns! Obviously I was being facetious regarding the empire and my vote would be Canada supports the North, and anyone affiliated with those who will stand up to Trump.

My generation still regard the United States as friends of the UK, Europe and the West. The United states ARE the West just as we are.

54 minutes ago, pinball1970 said:

Tsh, how depressing, talk of another civil war.

If you would have let us keep running the show you would not be having these problems.

If you need us to step in, just let us know ;)

Since the Britain is the mother of the USA and we have had several civil wars theya re surely due at least one more,

33 minutes ago, MigL said:

Certainly nowhere near as bad as the US ( or many other places ), but you can't pretend things are running smoothly over there. Except for the area where @studiot lives; he always posts pics of idyllic little hamlets with wooden bridges and churches.
But maybe if you guys re-join the EU, and get rid of the nutbars in your Government, who long for the former empire, and think England can go it alone ...

I can post another of the site of the last pitched battle fought on English soil only 15 miles the other way if you prefer.

I'm glad to say that this seems to be a popular thread however.

😄

52 minutes ago, studiot said:

I'm glad to say that this seems to be a popular thread however.

I think this thread hits certain notes that are both, silly and dead serious. The world is changing at the whims of folks who are not masterminds but for the most part horrible manchildren. As a result, the premise of OP should be ridiculous, but given that rationality is bleeding out of the world, the likelihood seems nonzero, as it otherwise should be.

To quote the mightiest British King (but referring to the world as a whole): "It is a silly place".

1 hour ago, pinball1970 said:

If you would have let us keep running the show you would not be having these problems.

Resulting in Quebec detaching itself from the continent. And mandating that English languages is only allowed to be printed in Braille.

US situation is the outcome of decades of both rising inequality and propaganda (from the Heritage Foundation, Cato Institute and other similar NGOs). The post war compromise started collapsing in the 1970s already.

Edited October 31Oct 31 by Otto Kretschmer

5 minutes ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

US situation is the outcome of decades of both rising inequality and propaganda (from the Heritage Foundation, Cato Institute and other similar NGOs). The post war compromise started collapsing in the 1970s already.

They worked a long time on in, but the progress was slow. It feels that in the last decade or so, things accelerated. Whether due to accumulated power or just something else happening is not quite certain to me,

But, it is important to note that this is not just an US thing. Brexit was already mentioned and in addition, there are a lot of countries that have slid into autocracies in Europe and elsewhere. I am not saying that they can all be tracked to the same reason, but collectively they are part of a larger trend.

1 minute ago, CharonY said:

They worked a long time on in, but the progress was slow. It feels that in the last decade or so, things accelerated. Whether due to accumulated power or just something else happening is not quite certain to me,

But, it is important to note that this is not just an US thing. Brexit was already mentioned and in addition, there are a lot of countries that have slid into autocracies in Europe and elsewhere. I am not saying that they can all be tracked to the same reason, but collectively they are part of a larger trend.

The rise of neoliberalism in the 1980s was a result of a perfect combination of several factors, namely government overspending in the US (related to the Vietnam War and the Great Society) without raising taxes, decoupling of the US dollar from gold and the 1973 oil crisis. Without these the post war Keynesian consensus could have lasted decades longer, possibly until today, blunting ideological radicalism.

2 minutes ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

Without these the post war Keynesian consensus could have lasted decades longer, possibly until today, blunting ideological radicalism.

I am a bit less optimistic. If not that, folks would have weaponized other elements. While neoliberalism also got a hold of Europe, radicalization also happened. There is always disenfranchisement that can be leveraged and I just think folks got better at doing that. Or conversely, population resilience against such movements have diminished.

After all, a population that cannot agree on a common set of fact can be easily swayed one way or another.

2 minutes ago, CharonY said:

I am a bit less optimistic. If not that, folks would have weaponized other elements. While neoliberalism also got a hold of Europe, radicalization also happened. There is always disenfranchisement that can be leveraged and I just think folks got better at doing that. Or conversely, population resilience against such movements have diminished.

After all, a population that cannot agree on a common set of fact can be easily swayed one way or another.

In Norway a leftist coalition won elections a few weeks ago and Geert Wilders just lost in the Netherlands, there are signs of hope at least in a handful of places.

Just my opinion ...
Seems like people at either far end of the social spectrum share a symbiotic link.
The people with power, wealth and popularity ( the few ) are supported by the poorest, uneducated, disadvantaged people ( the multitude ).
Even as they are being taken advantage of, the multitudes believe the few are better than they are, and can do no wrong.
Someone like D Trump, V Putin or even E Musk, is believed by the multitudes to be taking care of them; even as they are taxing them for personal profit, and making their life unaffordable.
As if the few are better than the vast multitudes, and the multitudes believe the few 'deserve' it.

And as the middle class is squeezed out, more people will migrate towards those ends of the spectrum. It is a self perpetuating effect that has increased over time.
The few, powerful, rich and popular, lording it over, while being supported by, the multitudes of poor, uneducated and disadvantaged.

God ( or revolution/civil war ) help us all.

3 hours ago, studiot said:

I can post another of the site of the last pitched battle fought on English soil only 15 miles the other way if you prefer.

Which battle @studiot ?

Edited October 31Oct 31 by MigL

54 minutes ago, MigL said:

Which battle @studiot ?

https://www.zoylandheritage.co.uk/

The Battle of Sedgemoor was the last pitched battle to be fought on English soil. Three days after his defeat, Monmouth was captured and later executed. Hundreds of his supporters suffered at the hands of Judge Jeffreys' Bloody Assizes.

1 hour ago, Otto Kretschmer said:

In Norway a leftist coalition won elections a few weeks ago and Geert Wilders just lost in the Netherlands, there are signs of hope at least in a handful of places.

The slide is not inevitable, but Norway is not a particular good example as the far right Progress party had the highest vote count ever. While Geert Wilder's party lost seats, they were still tied. Granted it suggests that in the respective parlamentarian system shifts are possible (though the PVV remains in second place). Another example could be Poland, where the the opposition managed to form a government coalition pushing the right-populist PiS out of power (which still holds the most seats, just not the majority). But in the presidential election, a PiS-backed candidate won.

I think the one thing that typically happens is that once populist parties are in power, they generally mess things up as most are just not very competent and are driven by ideology, rather than good policy ideas. In parallel, they are also often ignored by moderate parties. I think only within the last 10-15 years did they get enough votes in at least some countries so that they were impossible to ignore. Moreover, they have started to dismantle accountability measures and have been better at using propaganda (especially via social media) to distort reality to such a degree that voters somehow become unable to see the failures as what they are. The US is a highly visible variation of it and I think to some degree, because it is a different country some folks have an easier time spotting that than within their own.

1 hour ago, MigL said:

The few, powerful, rich and popular, lording it over, while being supported by, the multitudes of poor, uneducated and disadvantaged.

God ( or revolution/civil war ) help us all.

And another point on the super-rich. In some cases their wealth is now larger than that of many nations, resulting in massive powers without control. Add to that those folks also control, directly or indirectly, modern information consumption and public discourse, it sure looks dystopian.

Edit: another thought. Public discourse and how most folks nowadays think, it has become easier to identify and disseminate thoughts on how things are going wrong (whether justified or not) and create unrest. However, at the same time we have not gotten any better regarding thinking and talking about complex solutions to complex problems. This creates a situation where folks want change (which is bad for moderates and the status quo) but do not quite understand (or are willing to learn) what the alternatives are. This makes them more amenable to simple, populist solutions. Those generally won't work (surprisingly, kidnapping ill children and delivery guys did not bring food prices down). But I am uncertain if folks really notice. I guess we will see in the next couple of years.

3 hours ago, CharonY said:

It feels that in the last decade or so, things accelerated. Whether due to accumulated power or just something else happening is not quite certain to me,

IMO it has to do with internet access where virtually the entire populace can be fed a BS narrative where the sole relation to reality is that
(most) peoples' lives are not getting better/easier.

10 hours ago, pinball1970 said:

Tsh, how depressing, talk of another civil war.

If you would have let us keep running the show you would not be having these problems.

If you need us to step in, just let us know ;)

In the words of Mance Rayder, I do not bend the knee.

The elbow, now that a different matter...;)

6 hours ago, studiot said:

The Battle of Sedgemoor was the last pitched battle to be fought on English soil.

Your very own 'civil war', eh ?
Thank you @studiot .
Not only do you live in interesting times, but also an interesting area.

Edited November 1Nov 1 by MigL