Quarks are bound together by strong nuclear force Fs=10e4N

The up quark has a mass of 3.56 x10e-30And down quark has a mass of 8.9x10e-30kg.

The size of quarks is calculated to be 10e-19m.

Average distance between quarks is 0.8x10e-15 m.

The minimum and maximum distance between two quarks quarks is created by gluons .

Now:

At what distance between quarks the gravitational force Fg=Fs strong force ?

Gravitational force formula

Fg=Gxm1xm2/re2

From this formula we can calculate that distance between up and down quark is r=4.6x10e-33m and gravitational force Fg =Fs

If two forces have the same value in the same distance - could it be that both forces have the same origin?

Could we call this starting point to find connection between gravity and other fundamental forces?

33 minutes ago, jv1 said:

could it be that both forces have the same origin?

No. For multiple reasons. Quarks interactions are mediated by gluons, which are spin 1. Gravitons, if they exist, would be spin 2. And they just don’t behave the same way - range, quark confinement, the fact that non-quarks feel the gravitational interaction.

2 hours ago, jv1 said:

If two forces have the same value in the same distance - could it be that both forces have the same origin?

One fairly persistent idea is that at small enough separation ( Planck scale ), and/or high enough energies like those at 10E-43 sec after the Big Bang, a Grand Unified force existed briefly.
Gravity was the first to separate at that time, followed by the Color force, and finally the Weak from the Electromagnetic, through a series of symmetry breaks.

Edit- Where have the superscript and subscript gone ?
Hard to do exponents now.

Edited May 27May 27 by MigL

1 hour ago, MigL said:

...

Edit- Where have the superscript and subscript gone ?
Hard to do exponents now.

In the ellipsis menu to the right of the symbols.

Thank you²

The gravitational Force obeys inverse square law from 0m to infinity

For The Planck scale distances gravitational force would be the strongest in nature .

Mechanism of how gravitational force works (gravitons or not) I assume is electromagnetic .

The strong force has atractive and repulsive components.

Let assume that gravitation is attractive component(made by mass attraction of quarks) of what we perceive as strong force .

The repulsive component of what we perceive as strong force is repulsive electromagnetic force created by near by positions preons,quarks and nucleons)

This mix of gravitational and electromagnetic forces is there aim that strong force does not follow the inverse square law

The 'strong' force is actually a residual force; a byproduct of the Color interaction between Quarks and Gluons.
It is called a 'color' interaction because it is modelled by Quantum Chromo Dynamics.

At scales less than the diameter of a hadron ( proton or neutron ), Quarks experience color confinement, meaning that the color force does not diminish with separation, effectively making the separation of two Quarks impossible as the required energy of separation will 'create' new pairs of Quarks.
This binding energy makes up most of the mass of Hadrons, as individual Quarks only account for approx. 1% of a Hadron's mass.

At scales larger than the diameter of a Hadron, a residual aspect of the Color interaction binds Hadrons together, and this is mediated not by Gluons but rather Pi Mesons ( modelled as a Yukawa interaction ), and diminishes extremely rapidly with separation.

As to the unification with other forces, here is a quote from Wikipedia ... Strong interaction - Wikipedia

"The so-called Grand Unified Theories (GUT) aim to describe the strong interaction and the electroweak interaction as aspects of a single force, similarly to how the electromagnetic and weak interactions were unified by the Glashow–Weinberg–Salam model into electroweak interaction. The strong interaction has a property called asymptotic freedom, wherein the strength of the strong force diminishes at higher energies (or temperatures). The theorized energy where its strength becomes equal to the electroweak interaction is the grand unification energy. However, no Grand Unified Theory has yet been successfully formulated to describe this process, and Grand Unification remains an unsolved problem in physics.
If GUT is correct, after the Big Bang and during the electroweak epoch of the universe, the electroweak force separated from the strong force. Accordingly, a grand unification epoch is hypothesized to have existed prior to this."

A lot of the statements you have made are imaginative speculation, and have no basis in experiment/observation or mathematical modelling.

Edited May 28May 28 by MigL

Here is the key point behind this idea.
Strong force between quarks is provided by gluons.
Gluon is massless point particle.
Interaction between quarks through gluons is very well explained and confirmed by experiments.
The biggest size of gluon is 10e-19m
The smallest size of gluon could theoretically be 0m

Lets observe quark and down quark and gluon between them as a single system.
Quarks have mass- and gravitational force will be acting between
them.

the gravitational attractive force will position quarks as close to each other
depending on strength of atractive force.

Using Newtonian formula for force ,or general relativity or observing gravity as geometry or force will not change the fact
that gluon is “squished “ between quarks .
For up and down quarks the gluon “thickness” or size will be below Planck length and force acting on gluon will be 10e4N

Beside gravitational force there is going to be atractive electromagnetic force becouse both quarks are charged particles with different spin.

the gravitational force at Planck scale is way bigger than electromagnetic force .

There is no strong force needed to explain interaction .

Now
in real life - there is always three quarks :
2 ups
1 down ….
Gluon (or gluons)in between

What we observed and measured in experiments is the strong force .
We can see that in real life there is three system from above .
There is three particles (quarks)acting on gluon (quizzing or streching them)
Three forces are atractive gravitational forces
and three
Forces are electromagnetic- 2 atractive and 1 repulsive .

All these forces are at equilibrium and we perceive it as strong force.

Here is physics with now numbers needed,we can call it thought experiment

As already said by other members, no. Chromodynamics and gravity are as different as two types of interaction amenable to be treated as "fundamental" can be.

As MigL points out, the so-called strong force is some kind of chromodynamic version of dipole-dipole or Van der Waals forces. It's the jittery thing that's going on between the quarks, consisting of gluons, ephimeral bound states (pion-like things) etc.

Chromodynamics quite blatantly (in its mixing with weak interactions) violates left-right symmetry, depends on spin orientation, depends on position the wrong way. The scattering properties of gravity and strong force are irreconcilable with each other. Eg, gravity cannot account for jets at high energy, confinement, asymptotic freedom...

And so on.

1 hour ago, jv1 said:

Quarks have mass- and gravitational force will be acting between
them.

Quarks are only present within the diameter of a hadron, and at that separation the Color interaction dominates; here's what Wikipedia has to say on the matter

"At a distance of 10⁻¹⁵ m, its strength is around 100 times that of the electromagnetic force, some 10⁶ times as great as that of the weak force, and about 10³⁸ times that of gravitation."

That makes any gravitational force, even Newtonian, acting between Quarks trivial

10 minutes ago, MigL said:

Quarks are only present within the diameter of a hadron, and at that separation the Color interaction dominates; here's what Wikipedia has to say on the matter

"At a distance of 10⁻¹⁵ m, its strength is around 100 times that of the electromagnetic force, some 10⁶ times as great as that of the weak force, and about 10³⁸ times that of gravitation."

That makes any gravitational force, even Newtonian, acting between Quarks trivial

If the gravitational effects are trivial within the confines of an atom, why are scientists fussed that GR fails at that scale and feel they need a quantum description? Why does it matter and what use would a quantum description of gravity have at Planck scales? Is it just for logical consistency to have a single description?

Edited May 28May 28 by StringJunky

In this isolated system we have only :
up quark(charge +2/3)
down quark (charge -1/3)
gluon

the total charge of system is +1/3 but the electromagnetic force between up and down quark is attractive.

The gluon in this system is massless particle - there is no gravitational force between up or down quark and gluon .
The gluon maximum size is calcite to be 10e-19 m and the smallest size could be 0m(massless point particle has no dimensions )but it is there and it is proven that it carries the strong force.

Gluon in this I isolated system is just”space filler” between quarks - kind a like elastic band .
When gravitational force is acting from the masses of up and down quarks (3.5 and 8.9 x10e-30)
for the gravitational force to be crated by these masses to be equal to the strong nuclear force - the distance between up and down quark has to be 0.04x10e-35m
The gluon is “squished “ between quarks by quarks.

In this isolated system there is two forces gravitational force created by the up and down quark masses And the atractive electromagnetic force crated by up and down quark electrical charges .
In this isolated system two of these forces are crating the force or bigger equal to strong force .

now

inside the proton there is 2 up and one down quarks .
Let’s apply logic from isolated system in to this real life application

There is going to be 3 gravitational force swishing gluon
Beside this 2 attractive and one repulsive electromagnetic forces
Are squishing the gluon.

Beside this ,two up quarks are pushed away one from another in circular motion around rain quark(spinning angular momentum)by repelling electromagnetic force.

So - what we perceive as strong force is 3 gravitational forces
Equilibrium between masses of 3quarks.

what we perceive as

color or flavour is the spinning momentum created by
repulsive electromagnetic force of 2 up protons.


The distance we observe quarks inside the hydron (10e-15n)

Is correct but center mass of all three quarks are ate distance
of 0.04 x10e-35 m in the center of proton .

3 hours ago, jv1 said:

Lets observe quark and down quark and gluon between them as a single system.
Quarks have mass- and gravitational force will be acting between
them.

the gravitational attractive force will position quarks as close to each other
depending on strength of atractive force.

Using Newtonian formula for force ,or general relativity or observing gravity as geometry or force will not change the fact
that gluon is “squished “ between quarks .
For up and down quarks the gluon “thickness” or size will be below Planck length and force acting on gluon will be 10e4N

But what you describe is a meson, which has a size of around 10^-15m, so looking at the planck length is misguided.

You can’t ignore the wave nature of the quarks, either. Any notion that these are acting like a tiny binary star system is also misguided

36 minutes ago, jv1 said:

In this isolated system we have only :
up quark(charge +2/3)
down quark (charge -1/3)
gluon

the total charge of system is +1/3 but the electromagnetic force between up and down quark is attractive.

This is not observed, though if one were an antiquark it would be a pi meson.

37 minutes ago, jv1 said:

The gluon in this system is massless particle - there is no gravitational force between up or down quark and gluon .

Being massless does not mean it is not subject to gravity.

38 minutes ago, jv1 said:

Is correct but center mass of all three quarks are ate distance
of 0.04 x10e-35 m in the center of proton .

Again, this claim isn’t consistent with the wave behavior that will be present

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

the gravitational effects are trivial within the confines of an atom

Yes they are.
But the Planck length is 20 orders of magnitude smaller than a proton, which is only 15 orders of magnitude smaller than us.
IOW, there is a smaller difference between us and protons, than there is between protons and the Planck scale.
There being a vast difference in how things behave at atomic scales compared to macro scales, how much more prevalent would differences be at Planck scales ?

And since we cannot generate the energies needed to investigate even close to Planck scales, the question remains unanswered.

1 hour ago, jv1 said:

inside the proton there is 2 up and one down quarks .
Let’s apply logic from isolated system in to this real life application

Quarks and Gluons are not 'little balls' interacting inside the 'bag' we call a Hadron.
They are quantum particles, none of which have a discernible size, display both particle and wave nature ( depending on circumstance ), have an intrinsic angular momentum where nothing is spinning ( no radius ) but is called spin, and occupy distinct states, with nothing ( discontinuity ) in between the states.

Your 'logic' immediately fails.

Edited May 28May 28 by MigL

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Yes they are.
But the Planck length is 20 orders of magnitude smaller than a proton, which is only 15 orders of magnitude smaller than us.
IOW, there is a smaller difference between us and protons, than there is between protons and the Planck scale.
There being a vast difference in how things behave at atomic scales compared to macro scales, how much more prevalent would differences be at Planck scales ?

And since we cannot generate the energies needed to investigate even close to Planck scales, the question remains unanswered.

Quarks and Gluons are not 'little balls' interacting inside the 'bag' we call a Hadron.
They are quantum particles, none of which have a discernible size, display both particle and wave nature ( depending on circumstance ), have an intrinsic angular momentum where nothing is spinning ( no radius ) but is called spin, and occupy distinct states, with nothing ( discontinuity ) in between the states.

Your 'logic' immediately fails.

OKIDOKI. Cheers.

All quantum particles can be particles or waves.

Gluons are massless particles traveling at speed of light.

They are carrying the sting force between quarks and they can be transformed to quarks and vice versa.

In this idea where the gravitational force mimics the strong force - the stream of light speed traveling gluons can be a seen as a solid barrier between quarks .

The thickness of this stream is 0.04 x10e-35 m

Are they coming from one quark and travel to another - maybe.

Or they are traveling from “outside “ of hadron- maybe.

The quarks have mass - they will create gravitational force between each other.

At distance of 0.04 x10e-35m the gravitational force will be 10e4 or very similar,for two up quarks,two down quarks or one up one down quark.

Inside the proton the quarks masses are stable .

Idea- the strong force is gravitational force,or in one specific set of conditions can mimic strong force.

The connection between gravity and strong force - is all we need to connect all fundamental forces to electromagnetic nature .

We are in speculations - is there anybody out there who can see the way for this to work?

Or help for this to work?

Tx

Moderator could you please close the thread

Tx

1 hour ago, jv1 said:

All quantum particles can be particles or waves.

All quantum particles have characteristics of both. You can’t ignore one aspect at your convenience.

1 hour ago, jv1 said:

The quarks have mass - they will create gravitational force between each other.

At distance of 0.04 x10e-35m the gravitational force will be 10e4 or very similar,for two up quarks,two down quarks or one up one down quark.

One way to think of the way the particle nature might manifest itself is that the quark will spend some fraction of its time in close proximity to the other. Something like (10^-15/10^-35)^3 of the time (as a very non-refined first-order analysis)

What you can’t do is assume that they're just stuck together at the planck length

5 hours ago, MigL said:

Yes they are.
But the Planck length is 20 orders of magnitude smaller than a proton, which is only 15 orders of magnitude smaller than us.
IOW, there is a smaller difference between us and protons, than there is between protons and the Planck scale.
There being a vast difference in how things behave at atomic scales compared to macro scales, how much more prevalent would differences be at Planck scales ?

And since we cannot generate the energies needed to investigate even close to Planck scales, the question remains unanswered.

I totally agree. But let me just throw in a further observation:

Gravity is not noticeable at kg's & meters scales. It is still not noticeable at proton-neutron scales. It becomes humongously noticeable when approaching Planck's scales... It grows uncontrollably high at small scales. But, hang on.

Why do we know about gravity at all then at our scale? Only because gravity cannot be screened, it cannot be cancelled out. There are no positive and negative gravity smidgeons that can mask its effects... And, of course, no confinement for gravity.

How wonderfully schizoid Nature is.

13 hours ago, StringJunky said:

If the gravitational effects are trivial within the confines of an atom, why are scientists fussed that GR fails at that scale and feel they need a quantum description? Why does it matter and what use would a quantum description of gravity have at Planck scales? Is it just for logical consistency to have a single description?

Gravitational effects on those scales are trivial only under ordinary energies, ie isolated atoms, or as parts of ordinary matter at ordinary pressures and temperatures. However, if you increase energy levels sufficiently - eg by forcing a very large amount of matter into a very small volume under extreme pressure and temperature - there comes a point where gravity and its hypothetical quantum properties can no longer be ignored even at small scales.

1 hour ago, Markus Hanke said:

Gravitational effects on those scales are trivial only under ordinary energies, ie isolated atoms, or as parts of ordinary matter at ordinary pressures and temperatures. However, if you increase energy levels sufficiently - eg by forcing a very large amount of matter into a very small volume under extreme pressure and temperature - there comes a point where gravity and its hypothetical quantum properties can no longer be ignored even at small scales.

Thanks Markus. That makes sense.

I wanted to hear your opinion about trying to prove that graviton and strong force beside on the quantum mechamics(Planck scale ) can be connected in a very unusual way.

Energy .

Here is an  simple example how to connect strong force and gravitational force.

Let’s compare  energy needed  to create these forces.

Hypothesis:

The energy needed to create both of these forces are equal - for visible universe .

This idea is - visible universe is seen as a liquid drop (nucleus) and the galaxies are seen as nucleons.

The gravity (gravitational energy) is used as an equivalent to strong force .

The galaxies are acting strongest to the neighbour galaxy and there is surface tension cretaed on the “outside “ surface of visible universe .

Very interesting thing - the gravitational energy cretaed by all galaxies inside the visible universe is equal (very close ) to energy crated by 

All nucleons (protons and neutrons ) strong force  which planets ,stars (galaxies ) are created of.

The distance these fundamental forces are acting in are very different and the strength of forces are very different- but interesting thing is - 

Energies are the  same .

Hypothetically- could this be the same force ?

Here is a bit closer calculation.

Cheers

Liquid drop model revisited

The liquid drop model explains forces in atomic nucleus as they were created by tiny liquid drops.

It is based partially on theory and partially on empirical measurements.

In this revisited model 

The visible universe is seen as bubble/nucleus  of liquid with diameter of 8.8x10e26m.In the further text big bubble.

The galaxies inside the bubble are seen as a nucleons.In further text small bubbles.

For simplicity of calculation we are going to use average size  of galaxies.

 

The number of galaxies inside the visible universe is Ng=2x10e12.

The mass of galaxies is found to be 10e7 to 10e12 solar mases.

Mass of average size of galaxy is calculated to be ma=2 x10e39kg.

The sizes of galaxies are in the range of few to 100 kiloparsecs.

The size of  average galaxy  is Da=4.89x10e20 m.

The average distance between two galaxies is  1x10e6 light years or 9x10e21

The force acting on surface area of big bubble is

F=PoxAbb

F=246.10e52 x 1.3x10e-13

F=0.316x10e44N

Po=1.3x10e-13 Pa(pressure in deep space )

The force acting on the outside surface area of big bubble is very similar to Planck's force.

Binding energy between two closest average galaxies(small bubbles)can be calculated from

Formula for gravitational energy.

U=Gx(ma)e2/da

U=6.6x10e-11 x (2x10e39)e2 /9x10e21

U=8.8x10e46J

There is 1x10e12 pairs of nucleons (small bubbles) creating this energy)

Total binding energy of big bubble is

Et=8.8x10e46 x 10e12

Et=8.8x10e58J***********

The binding energy calculated by Weizsäcker formula : 

E=15.75 x A -  17.8 x A e1/3 (Columb and Pauli term are negligible)

E= 15.75 x5.71 x 10 e67 -  17.8x(5.71x 10e67)e2/3

E=89.9x10e67-14.7x10e44

E= 89.9x10e67 mev

One ev=1.6x10e-13J

E=89.9x10e67x 1.6x10e-7

E=142.4x10e60**********

The  total binding gravitational energie 

Produced by little bubbles - seen as nuclons is very similar (close) to total energy produces by total number of protons inside the big bubble (weizsaecker  formula ).

3 hours ago, jv1 said:

Hypothesis:

The energy needed to create both of these forces are equal - for visible universe .

I don’t know what “energy needed to create a force” means. Energy and force are not the same thing. The characterization makes no physics sense. When things move under the influence of Newtonian gravity, the total energy stays the same - any reduction in potential energy increases the kinetic energy by the same amount.

3 hours ago, jv1 said:

Very interesting thing - the gravitational energy cretaed by all galaxies inside the visible universe is equal (very close ) to energy crated by 

All nucleons (protons and neutrons ) strong force  which planets ,stars (galaxies ) are created of.

You can calculate the nuclear and gravitational binding energies of nucleons. They are not anywhere close to being equal.

3 hours ago, jv1 said:

The distance these fundamental forces are acting in are very different and the strength of forces are very different- but interesting thing is - 

Energies are the  same .

Hypothetically- could this be the same force ?

But the energies are not the same. You are discussing a fictional universe, not the universe we live in.

5 minutes ago, jv1 said:

The force acting on the outside surface area of big bubble is very similar to Planck's force.

Additionally to swanson't comment,

Planck's force is a unit of measure not a type of force.

Liquid drop model of visible universe is used to explain how gravitational atractive force (which are long range force ) can be seen the same way as a strong Force acting in the short range.

The proton neutron binding energy is 2.2 MeV(for deuterium).Energy needed to hold deuterium together - and they are held together by strong force (this force is product of binding energy).

Instead of calculating every atom in the universe , for simplicity we can

There qre 6-7 protons for each neutron in visible universe .

The same goes for 2 average size galaxies at average distance in visible universe .

Gravitational force between two galaxies is product of gravitational energy created by proton neutron pairs inside the galaxy

Now 10e38 is magnitude difference between gravity and strong force inside the nucleon - It would be logical that sum of all energies of proton neutron pair would be 10e38 times bigger than sum of average gravitational energies in visible universe?

Correct?

One more thing

Gluon - it is disturbance of the quantum field ,which is responsible for 98 % of 988MeV binding energy of proton .

We say that gluons are exchanged between quarks - in this speculative story of mine - gluon is not exchanged between quarks - it travels around the quarks .

The quarks are pushed by big number of massless gluons and the number of gluons from outside is bigger and has bigger energy than number of gluons which are traveling in between quarks .

It does not matter are the quarks particles or waves - they will be affected .

Gluon travels at the speed of light. And it travels in loop with diameter of 10e26m(size of visible universe ) or probably more .

The gravitational force is crated by the same gluons - gluon is what we call graviton .