5 hours ago, Sohan Lalwani said:

What is minecraft if you don't mind me asking? I looked it up and it is a gaming site, am I correct?

Just like Universe but currently smaller.. ;)

8 hours ago, Sensei said:

Just like Universe but currently smaller.. ;)

I see, perhaps I may play it sometime

On 4/29/2025 at 2:34 PM, Sohan Lalwani said:

How can creationism counter evolution? What makes intelligent design so "plausible" to the majority of religious Christians?

What is the alternative? It isn't evolution. Evolution has nothing to do with creation. There is nothing to compare to creation.

1 hour ago, Pathway Machine said:

What is the alternative? It isn't evolution. Evolution has nothing to do with creation. There is nothing to compare to creation.

Indeed, the origin of life cannot be due to evolution, since that already requires replication, the ability of an organism to pass on its traits to descendants.

The study of the origin of life on Earth (abiogenesis, as distinct from evolution) is a very interesting topic. A lot of models for various biochemical building blocks have now been identified, though we are still nowhere close to putting them together to create a model for how life first arose. Research continues to make progress but it will be a long road.

6 hours ago, Pathway Machine said:

What is the alternative? It isn't evolution. Evolution has nothing to do with creation. There is nothing to compare to creation.

There’s more to the doctrine of creationism than creation.

More importantly, why is creationism pushed as an alternative to evolution, which has ample evidence, rather than the process of abiogenesis, which we are still baffled about ?

I suspect it is due to some people believing in the superiority of some, as they were 'created in ( their ) God's image', rather than we ALL evolved from lower life forms.

7 hours ago, Pathway Machine said:

What is the alternative?

Naturalistic Cosmology.

1 hour ago, swansont said:

There’s more to the doctrine of creationism than creation.

My interest in and knowledge of creationism is about the same as my interest in and knowledge of science. I only know what others have told me. What they believe. So, if you want to share more about that I'm open to it.

22 minutes ago, pinball1970 said:

Naturalistic Cosmology.

Care to expand on that?

1 hour ago, Pathway Machine said:

My interest in and knowledge of creationism is about the same as my interest in and knowledge of science. I only know what others have told me. What they believe. So, if you want to share more about that I'm open to it.

Care to expand on that?

Modern Cosmology. Mainstream BB Cosmology starts at 10^-35 ish?

Cyclic models are more complicated and some are infinite, no creation.

Question

What if origin dissolved and evolution rolls since then?

28 minutes ago, tylers100 said:

Question

What if origin dissolved and evolution rolls since then?

Not sure what that means.

37 minutes ago, pinball1970 said:

Not sure what that means.

Analogy

Think of a Rubik's cube that seems to irreversibly morphs to other shapes and colours but cannot go back to its original perfect condition (e.g. perfect colours matching and uniform).

50 minutes ago, tylers100 said:

Think of a Rubik's cube that seems to irreversibly morphs to other shapes and colours but cannot go back to its original perfect condition (e.g. perfect colours matching and uniform).

We call it entropy.
But that is locally reversible.

Edited October 26Oct 26 by MigL

57 minutes ago, tylers100 said:

Think of a Rubik's cube

No, just explain what you mean in terms of current BB Cosmology

3 hours ago, Pathway Machine said:

My interest in and knowledge of creationism is about the same as my interest in and knowledge of science. I only know what others have told me. What they believe. So, if you want to share more about that I'm open to it.

Been there, done that. It’s kinda boring at this point. The basic creationism arguments against evolution are an exercise in intellectual dishonesty, and the “debate” is rarely in good faith, and that wears thin.

20 hours ago, Pathway Machine said:

There is nothing to compare to creation.

What makes you think creation is even possible? I have yet to see an example of anyone creating anything from "nothing".

48 minutes ago, npts2020 said:

What makes you think creation is even possible? I have yet to see an example of anyone creating anything from "nothing".

Energy, Bob. Dynamic energy the Bible calls it.

6 hours ago, Pathway Machine said:

Energy, Bob. Dynamic energy the Bible calls it.

Where does the bible speak of "dynamic energy"?

6 hours ago, Pathway Machine said:

Energy, Bob. Dynamic energy the Bible calls it.

The bible also says every species in the world was jammed into a boat with about 100,000 square feet of cargo space for 40 days. Just between reptiles and mammals, there is approximately 20,000 known species. Leaving aside the fact that scientists discover new species all the time, making it highly unlikely that anyone from Noah's age would be able to collect them all, that only gives you around a 2 1/4 foot square on board for each pair of animals. Then you have more than a million species of insects and arachnids...

Edited October 27Oct 27 by npts2020
clarification

6 minutes ago, npts2020 said:

The bible also says every species in the world was jammed into a boat with about 100,000 square feet of cargo space for 40 days. Just between reptiles and mammals, there is approximately 20,000 known species. Leaving aside the fact that scientists discover new species all the time, making it highly unlikely that anyone from Noah's age would be able to collect them all, that only gives you around a 2 1/4 foot square on board for each pair of animals. Then you have more than a million species of insects and arachnids...

Please let's not fall into the silly trap of reading Genesis, the oldest book in the bible, literally. No mainstream Christian today who has thought seriously about this story would take it that way. This Wiki article is worth reading on the subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegorical_interpretations_of_Genesis

1 hour ago, npts2020 said:

The bible also says every species in the world was jammed into a boat with about 100,000 square feet of cargo space for 40 days. Just between reptiles and mammals, there is approximately 20,000 known species. Leaving aside the fact that scientists discover new species all the time, making it highly unlikely that anyone from Noah's age would be able to collect them all, that only gives you around a 2 1/4 foot square on board for each pair of animals. Then you have more than a million species of insects and arachnids...

Noah's ark was designed to carry Noah and his family along with animals through the global deluge of 2370 - 2369 BCE. The ark (Hebrew tevah, Greek kibotos) was rectangular, a chest, actually, having square corners and a flat bottom. It was designed simply to float, without the need for steering, and to be watertight. This shape not only would make capsizing very improbable but also allowed for one third more space. The roof had a 4% pitch, with a 1 cubit elevation - 25 cubits from wall to ridge, which allowed water to flow off.

It was 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide, and 30 cubits high. The ancient cubit was 17.5 inches (44.5 cm), although some think it was nearer to 56 or 61 cm, which means the ark measured 437' 6" x 72' 11" x 43' 9" (133.5 m by 22.3 m by 13.4 m), which is less than half the length of the Queen Elizabeth II. The proportion of length to width being 6 to 1 is also used by modern naval architects.

It had approximately 1,400,000 cubic feet (40,000 cubic meters) in gross volume, with a displacement comparable to the 883 ft (269 m) Titanic. It was strengthened internally by the addition of two floors. With three decks, it would have a total of approximately 96,000 square feet (8,900 square meters) of space.'

For light and ventilation, there was an opening of a cubit in height near the roof which extended around the four sides, providing 1,500 square feet (140 square meters).

The wood used was from a resinous tree, probably cypress or similar. Cypress was favored by shipbuilders such as the Phoenicians and Alexander the Great, even to the present day. Noah was instructed not only to caulk the seams but to cover the ark inside and outside with tar.'

Bitumen and Pitch
Bitumen is a black or brownish asphalt. There are three Hebrew words which describe first its degree of hardness: zepheth is pitch, the liquid form, and chemar is bitumen, its solid state. Kopher, tar, describes its usage, an application overlaying woodwork. The ark in which Moses, as a baby, floated down the Nile was covered with both bitumen and pitch, rendering it watertight (Exodus 2:3), and the builders of Babylon used bitumen for not only its waterproofing but its adhesiveness as mortar in kiln-dried bricks. (Genesis 11:3)

Cargo
Noah's ark had, without a doubt, a most interesting passenger list: Noah, his wife, three sons, and their wives, as well as two of every sort of animal, seven of each of the animals considered to be clean. Also, food for over a year. Many people grossly overestimate the number of animals involved here because they don't understand that the Bible means every "kind," a term which differs a great deal from the biological term. There wasn't a need, for example, for Noah to include every breed of dog or cat, just two or seven (if clean) of each.

It has been estimated that 43 kinds of mammals, 74 kinds of birds, and 10 kinds of reptiles could have produced the variety of species known today. A more liberal estimate is 72 kinds of quadrupeds and less than 200 kinds of bird kinds would have sufficed. There are about 1,300,000 species of animals, but 60% of those are insects. Of the 24,000 amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals, 9,000 are reptiles and amphibians, and 10,000 are birds - many of which could have survived outside the ark.

Of the 5,000 mammals, which would include whales and porpoises who would have stayed outside the ark, 290 are larger than a sheep, and 1,360 are smaller than rats.

Plenty of room for Noah's family as well as for all the animals and their food.

Lifted lock stock and barrel from Gilgamesh. It's someone else's mythology.

52 minutes ago, Pathway Machine said:

It has been estimated that 43 kinds of mammals, 74 kinds of birds, and 10 kinds of reptiles could have produced the variety of species known today.

Estimated by the Jehovah's Witnesses, who somehow are able to accelerate evolution while simultaneously denying it. Do you have anything credible? Or do you want to double down on millions of species evolving in just a few thousand years?

2 hours ago, exchemist said:

Please let's not fall into the silly trap of reading Genesis, the oldest book in the bible, literally. No mainstream Christian today who has thought seriously about this story would take it that way. This Wiki article is worth reading on the subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegorical_interpretations_of_Genesis

Then you have to decide which parts of the bible you want to pick and choose to take literally or not. Personally, there isn't much, if anything, I would take literally from that book.

1 hour ago, Pathway Machine said:

Noah's ark had, without a doubt, a most interesting passenger list: Noah, his wife, three sons, and their wives, as well as two of every sort of animal, seven of each of the animals considered to be clean. Also, food for over a year. Many people grossly overestimate the number of animals involved here because they don't understand that the Bible means every "kind," a term which differs a great deal from the biological term. There wasn't a need, for example, for Noah to include every breed of dog or cat, just two or seven (if clean) of each.

It has been estimated that 43 kinds of mammals, 74 kinds of birds, and 10 kinds of reptiles could have produced the variety of species known today. A more liberal estimate is 72 kinds of quadrupeds and less than 200 kinds of bird kinds would have sufficed. There are about 1,300,000 species of animals, but 60% of those are insects. Of the 24,000 amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals, 9,000 are reptiles and amphibians, and 10,000 are birds - many of which could have survived outside the ark.

Leaving aside Phi's argument (with which I completely agree), do you have any idea of how much space a years worth of food for an elephant would occupy? (hint; an African elephant consumes 4-6% of its body weight in plant matter on a daily basis) And that is just one species...

39 minutes ago, npts2020 said:

Then you have to decide which parts of the bible you want to pick and choose to take literally or not. Personally, there isn't much, if anything, I would take literally from that book.

Sure. That's what people do.