Otto Kretschmer Posted February 9 Author Share Posted February 9 @MigL Aren't Patricia Crone's ideas rejected by majority of historians? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MigL Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 On 2/9/2024 at 11:04 AM, Otto Kretschmer said: Aren't Patricia Crone's ideas rejected by majority of historians? It seems that P Crone now also rejects her former ideas. The general consensus seems to be that Mecca was a trading post where many trader caravans stopped, as they made their way across the Arabian peninsula. It was already an area of major religious significance ( because of a large black cubic structure of stone, mentioned by Eise ), and was a 'meeting point' of many other religions of the traders that passed through Mecca. Muhammad incorporated many aspects of the differing religions he was exposed to, as well as the Kaaba, into Islam. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joigus Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 (edited) On 2/7/2024 at 8:19 PM, Otto Kretschmer said: I am not sure about this. Muhammad's life is no better documented than the life of Jesus - all information about him comes from sources written over a century after his death (the first biography of Muhammad comes from ca. 750 AD while he died in 632 AD). Confucius and Buddha aren't better documented either. I'm glad you noticed. Two thousand years after and more than 2000 miles away from the alleged origin of the story (northern Iran & Uzbekistan for Al-Tabari and Al-Bukhari respectively). That's pretty far away from Mecca and Medina both in time and space. Add to that the fact that 'muhammad' (MHMD in most Semitic scripts) just means 'the praised one' and we are pretty much where we are with many other founders of religions. Nothing much except the hope of human group from centuries upon centuries ago to become relevant on the grounds of a religious preacher who might or might not have existed even. No religion should be taken seriously. But the more modern ones are the more ridiculously off-base. Take Scientology, for example. 5 hours ago, MigL said: It seems that P Crone now also rejects her former ideas. Patricia Crone died some 9 years ago. Her book Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam is just a pacient and meticulous gathering and exposition of facts as recorded from contemporary records from the 5th-6th centuries (and somewhat before) AFAIK. She very patiently shows how and why the "centre-of-trade" theory of Mecca is a physical/historical impossibility. Maybe aliens from Proxima-Centauri could have made Mecca a commercial hub of the Nabateans. Camels just couldn't have done it. All the Nabatean know-how couldn't make up for the fact that Mecca is about 1000 meters below the main route to Ta'if, and extremely inconvenient --to say the least-- to be any kind of rendezvous in the trade route. Impossible. What other things happened in Mecca in the 6th century? We don't know. Trade certainly was not one of them. That's probably why Mecca appears in NO book from before the 9th century. Crone got many death threats from that and decided to keep a low profile from then on. That's what I know. Edited February 10 by joigus minor correction 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MigL Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 I wasn't aware that P Crone had passed. I notice the 'sketchy' literature you're considering, refers to Muhammad as 'the praised one', or religious literature, which makes it 'sketchy'. On the first page of this thread, however, I mentioned some historical literature which pre-dates Muhammad's religious significance to Islam. In some Muhammad isn't even referred to as 'the Prophet', rather, the first of the 'Arab Kings'. See the first of these sources Brock, S.P. (1982). "Syriac Views of Emergent Islam". In G.H.A. Juynboll (ed.). Studies on the First Century of Islamic Society. Southern Illinois University Press. p. 20. Nevo, Yehuda D.; Koren, Judith (2000). "Methodological Approaches to Islamic Studies". The Quest for the Historical Muhammad. New York: Prometheus Books. pp. 420–443. Nigosian, Solomon Alexander (2004). Islam: Its History, Teaching, and Practices. Indiana University Press. ISBN 0-253-21627-3. I might add that, I myself, haven't read a lot of this and can't attest to their validity; just some 'skimming', so my opinions might not have very solid foundations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Kretschmer Posted February 11 Author Share Posted February 11 Forum members, what's your opinion on Sharia law in general? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 14 minutes ago, Otto Kretschmer said: Forum members, what's your opinion on Sharia law in general? Sharia law violates the basic premise of human rights at nearly every turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Kretschmer Posted February 11 Author Share Posted February 11 35 minutes ago, Moontanman said: Sharia law violates the basic premise of human rights at nearly every turn. But it's the core of Islam. You really can't have Islam without Sharia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 4 minutes ago, Otto Kretschmer said: But it's the core of Islam. You really can't have Islam without Sharia. What good does Islam do the world? We, the world, don't need Islam or any other fairy tale to run our lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 1 hour ago, Otto Kretschmer said: But it's the core of Islam. You really can't have Islam without Sharia. And? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterkin Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 5 hours ago, Moontanman said: Sharia law violates the basic premise of human rights at nearly every turn. So does every other system of law that predates 1995AD. Laws get changed and updated all the time without fundamentally altering the culture of the nation in which they're practiced. It's usually too gradual to notice, but try comparing any modern Western nation's laws in 1900 and 2000. Not everyone who declares as Muslim follows every aspect of the ancient rules, any more than does every Jew or Christian. 4 hours ago, Moontanman said: What good does Islam do the world? We, the world, don't need Islam or any other fairy tale to run our lives. That's easy for an atheist to say - people who still adhere to a religion don't see it the same way. And there is a very large number of them - something like 92% of the population. Obviously, your "we" is not everyone's "we". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MigL Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Any non-secular system of law, like Sharia, will discriminate against all other non-Islamic religions. And possibly, some sects of Islam also. A diverse group of people needs a secular system of governance and laws. ( meandering once again 🙂 ) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 1 hour ago, Peterkin said: So does every other system of law that predates 1995AD. Laws get changed and updated all the time without fundamentally altering the culture of the nation in which they're practiced. You seriously don't think laws alter cultures? 1 hour ago, Peterkin said: It's usually too gradual to notice, but try comparing any modern Western nation's laws in 1900 and 2000. Not everyone who declares as Muslim follows every aspect of the ancient rules, any more than does every Jew or Christian. True not all muslims follow the laws of Islam any more than all Christians or Hindus follow those laws however... I am i no danger of being "officially" killed due to my lack of belief as I would in many countries who follow Sharia law. It should also be noted that in many islamic theocracies leaving the religion is dealt with by the death penalty. 1 hour ago, Peterkin said: That's easy for an atheist to say - people who still adhere to a religion don't see it the same way. And there is a very large number of them - something like 92% of the population. Obviously, your "we" is not everyone's "we". It is indeed everyone's "we" just because you don't know you don't need a sky daddy to tell you how to live doesn't mean you do need a god to tell you how to live. Religion is at the core of most of our problems in this day and age. Far too many people rely on nonsensical advice from greedy grifters who claim the moral high ground while quoting scripture from a book that can be shown to be wrong about nearly everything that can be tested. This "book" is being used to garner support for converting our country into a theology run by oligarchs. Religion is being used to destroy our country by a man who comes damn close to qualifying as the antichrist, if I was a believer I would be quite certain of this. The Quran is no better nor is the religious writings of any other mythology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterkin Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Moontanman said: You seriously don't think laws alter cultures? No. Altered cultures write new laws. 45 minutes ago, Moontanman said: True not all muslims follow the laws of Islam any more than all Christians or Hindus follow those laws however... I am i no danger of being "officially" killed due to my lack of belief as I would in many countries who follow Sharia law. It should also be noted that in many islamic theocracies leaving the religion is dealt with by the death penalty. And in some other countries, defacing the Grand Leader's image is equally serious. Dictators are dictators, under whatever flag or symbol they oppress people, or whatever ideology they profess. I get that you're angry at the dictators, but there is no gain in pointing at one of their many tools of manipulation and coercion, and pretending that if only that one were taken away, we would no longer be the fucked-up species that invented these tools in the first place. 45 minutes ago, Moontanman said: It is indeed everyone's "we" just because you don't know you don't need a sky daddy to tell you how to live doesn't mean you do need a god to tell you how to live. Well, you'd better go tell 'em all what they need and don't need, as they are evidently incapable of of deciding for themselves. What do you think they'll answer? Edited February 12 by Peterkin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 2 minutes ago, Peterkin said: No. Altered cultures write new laws. 50 years ago being gay was reason enough to deny a person a job, a house, even a spouse. New laws stopped that travesty but the culture hasn't completely caught up as of yet. When slavery was abolished was it because the culture wanted to fight a war to change the laws or did two separate culture parts have to fight a war to force a law change? 2 minutes ago, Peterkin said: And in some other countries, defacing the Grand Leader's image is equally serious. Dictators are dictators, under whatever flag they oppress people, or whatever ideology to profess. I get that you're angry at the dictators, but there is no point in pointing at one of their many tools of manipulation and coercion, and pretending that if only that one were taken away, we would no longer be the fucked-up species that invented these tools in the first place. Yes but the grand leader uses those tools to control his people and religion plays into this in a big way. All the dear leader has to do is convince the people he serves god then he can do and get them to do anything under threat of hell fire. Religion is the most powerful tool a leader can have on his side. 2 minutes ago, Peterkin said: Well, you'd better go tell 'em all what they need and don't need, as they are evidently incapable of of deciding for themselves. I am fine with "them" deciding for themselves it's when they decide for others that I have a problem with. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterkin Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 13 hours ago, Moontanman said: 50 years ago being gay was reason enough to deny a person a job, a house, even a spouse. New laws stopped that travesty but the culture hasn't completely caught up as of yet. How does a law get passed? Unless it's imposed by a conqueror or dictator, it's usually in response to a majority of voters' opinion. In this case, acceptance in the entertainment media and support from the straight community long preceded legal action - which was damn slow. That there are regressive elements in every society is obvious. There are still idjits running around making speeches against women's suffrage and the banning of hate speech. The history of the US and slavery is a politico-economic one. That practice of human bondage is deeply embedded in patriarchal systems. That made it possible - and expedient - to half-accept slavery into the fresh new baby constitution. It didn't work out so well and blew up in a politico-economic disaster of a civil war. Nothing to do with culture. The federation never had a single coherent culture and doesn't now. 13 hours ago, Moontanman said: Yes but the grand leader uses those tools to control his people and religion plays into this in a big way. All the dear leader has to do is convince the people he serves god then he can do and get them to do anything under threat of hell fire. Religion is the most powerful tool a leader can have on his side. Nah, it's just one of several. The really biggest is the followers' willingness to follow. He tells them what they want to hear. It doesn't have to be about God or hell; it can be anything that that makes them feel important and powerful: they're the super-race who have been hard done by, and he will lead them back to the greatness that's rightfully theirs. Whether it's in the name of poor or old turn-cheek Jesus or the Fatherland or Workers' Solidarity or the Glory of the Empire. The human brain is big and full of ideas; it has vast storage capacity for experience, imagination and the reasoning capacity to recombine data and justify its own fantasies. Human will indulge in wishful thinking, in optimistic bias; they will believe in luck and fate, omens, talismans, demons and guardian angels; they will make magic symbols and invent rituals. These things can serve as social cohesives and positive reinforcement, and they can be perverted and exploited. People also love novelty, upheaval, excitement, violence, watching shit explode and blood flow. You don't think so? Look at the ten most popular movies and video games. Three hundred years ago, it was public executions and bull-baiting. 13 hours ago, Moontanman said: I am fine with "them" deciding for themselves it's when they decide for others that I have a problem with. That's another strong drive in humans: the desire for control. Of the environment, the elements, of other species and people. That's what also makes it easy for a leader - chosen, imposed or self-appointed - to persuade large numbers of people to attack another group that's got the wrong god, the wrong pigmentation, the wrong ideology, the wrong uniform, the wrong economic arrangement, and is therefore a threat to our correct way of life. Change it if you can. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 40 minutes ago, Peterkin said: How does a law get passed? Unless it's imposed by a conqueror or dictator, it's usually in response to a majority of voters' opinion. In this case, acceptance in the entertainment media and support from the straight community long preceded legal action - which was damn slow. That there are regressive elements in every society is obvious. There are still idjits running around making speeches against women's suffrage and the banning of hate speech. The history of the US and slavery is a politico-economic one. That practice of human bondage is deeply embedded in patriarchal systems. That made it possible - and expedient - to half-accept slavery into the fresh new baby constitution. It didn't work out so well and blew up in a politico-economic disaster of a civil war. Nothing to do with culture. The federation never had a single coherent culture and doesn't now. Nah, it's just one of several. The really biggest is the followers' willingness to follow. He tells them what they want to hear. It doesn't have to be about God or hell; it can be anything that that makes them feel important and powerful: they're the super-race who have been hard done by, and he will lead them back to the greatness that's rightfully theirs. Whether it's in the name of poor or old turn-cheek Jesus or the Fatherland or Workers' Solidarity or the Glory of the Empire. The human brain is big and full of ideas; it has vast storage capacity for experience, imagination and the reasoning capacity to recombine data and justify its own fantasies. Human will indulge in wishful thinking, in optimistic bias; they will believe in luck and fate, omens, talismans, demons and guardian angels; they will make magic symbols and invent rituals. These things can serve as social cohesives and positive reinforcement, and they can be perverted and exploited. People also love novelty, upheaval, excitement, violence, watching shit explode and blood flow. You don't think so? Look at the ten most popular movies and video games. Three hundred years ago, it was public executions and bull-baiting. That's another strong drive in humans: the desire for control. Of the environment, the elements, of other species and people. That's what also makes it easy for a leader - chosen, imposed or self-appointed - to persuade large numbers of people to attack another group that's got the wrong god, the wrong pigmentation, the wrong ideology, the wrong uniform, the wrong economic arrangement, and is therefore a threat to our correct way of life. Change it if you can. Good luck! You stay lubed up, I'll continue to try and change the deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterkin Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 I guess we all have our little projects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 On 2/11/2024 at 6:14 PM, Moontanman said: Sharia law violates the basic premise of human rights at nearly every turn. Except in the banking sector, where the opposite is true... Bank of Dave (film) - Wikipedia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 3 hours ago, dimreepr said: Except in the banking sector, where the opposite is true... Bank of Dave (film) - Wikipedia Well then, I guess that makes Islam golden! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 21 hours ago, Moontanman said: Well then, I guess that makes Islam golden! No more than any other culture is completely golden; but I can't help thinking that "The Grapes of Wrath" would be a much happier story under shariah banking principles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eninn Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 (edited) You must study Islam in specialized Islamic centers and not from anti-Islam websites and fake media death penalty for adultsry In all Abrahamic religions, the crime of adultery has a penalty In Islam, flogging, and in the Bible, stoning 2- in the Qur’an kill the apostate in one case, which is The state of war when this person joins the enemy and reveals the secrets of his country to the enemies and exposes people to occupation and killing A verse : “There is no compulsion in Faith. The correct way has become distinct from the erroneous. Now, whoever rejects the Tāghūt (the Rebel, the Satan) and believes in Allah has a firm grasp on the strongest ring that never breaks. Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing. "(Quran, 2: 256) Another "And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, [O Muḥammad], would you compel the people in order that they become believers? (Quran, 10:99) In the exceptional case that we are in a situation of war, this is absolutely true, because whoever leaves his religion is guilty of treason in the eyes of an entire community and threatens the safety of many people. And in all the societies that have existed on this planet, not just in Islam, the traitors have always received the heaviest sentences. “It is impossible that an individual who studies the personality of the great Prophet of the Arabs, how he lived and educated the people, does not feel a deep esteem and a great respect for this honorable Prophet, one of the great Messengers of 'Allah' at that time means 1400 yrs ago, this rule of killing a murtad because of some another reasons and conditions was applicable but not because that he became murtad. If a person can join Islam willingly , then he has the right to leave it also. Because Islam advocates freedom of religion. Think if in a non-muslim country if a nonmuslim becomes muslim and government is killing that person because of becoming a muslim then we muslims will cry for freedom of religion. حكم المرتد في الاسلام - ذاكر نايك Dr Zakir Naik about killing murtad in islam https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbsejG--znc 3- The status of women in Islam In Islam, women are respected and they are not oppressed. “In Islam, women are not loved, have no rights, and are subjugated,” you may have heard. It’s possible that some of the things mentioned about Muslim women are untrue. When we examine the life of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w., we can discover that these assertions are completely false. Despite the fact that he was sent at a period when women were largely seen to be inferior and undervalued, he led by example with his courteous treatment of women. Although Islam recognises that men and women are not the same, the Quran explicitly states that they are equal in creation and in Allah’s sight: https://islamtheultimatepeace.com/how-prophet-muhammad-pbuh-honoured-women/ “Women’s Right to Public and Political Office in Islam”, by H.E. Sheikh Ahmed Zaki Yamani https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxQHrIegl0o Rights of a Wife in Islam - Dr Zakir Naik 4- allah is God (the Father) only \Allah God is One, from Adam to Muhammad, peace be upon them But people have turned away from worshiping God according to their own whims It doesn’t make sense that God sends countless Prophets like Noah, Abraham and Moses to tell people to believe in one God, and then suddenly sends a radically different message of the Trinity which contradicts his previous Prophets teachings. It is clear that the sect of Christianity who believed Jesus to be a human Prophet and nothing more, were following the true teachings of Jesus. This is because their concept of God is the same as that which was taught by the Prophets in the Old Testament. The truth is that Jesus preached the same message that the Prophets in the Old Testament preached. There is a passage in the Bible which really emphasizes his core message. A man came to Jesus and asked “Which is the first commandment of all?”Jesus answered, “The first of all the commandments is Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.’’[Mark 12:28-29]. So the greatest commandment, the most important belief according to Jesus is that God is one. If Jesus was God he would have said ‘I am God, worship me’, but he didn’t. He merely repeated a verse from the Old Testament confirming that God is One. God says in the Qur’anO People of the Book, do not commit excesses in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers and do not speak of a ‘Trinity’– stop [this], that is better for you– God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust. [4:171] Islam is not just another religion. It is the same message preached by Moses, Jesus and Abraham. Islam literally means ‘submission to God’ and it teaches us to have a direct relationship with God. It reminds us that since God created us, no one should be worshipped except God alone. It also teaches that God is nothing like a human being or like anything that we can imagine. The concept of God is summarized in the Quran as: “Say, He is God, the One. God, the Absolute. He does not give birth, nor was He born, and there is nothing like Him.” (Quran 112:1-4)[4] "Jesus Christ (pbuh) never claimed that he is God" - Dr Zakir Naik 5- Islam is not violent against non-Muslims Islam is a comprehensive way of life to guide humanity and solve its problems As well as the mercy of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, to people, whether friends or enemies Whereas other systems have failed to solve humanity's problems We tell the enemies of Islam where is the beheading, the bad treatment of women and the bad treatment of non-Muslims I advise them to study the tolerant Islam because Islam has nothing to do with the wrong customs and traditions of people I advise them to look at their bloody books and their bloody policy towards the world Treatment of non-Muslims in Islam The general policy in Islam is to guarantee full rights to non- Muslim populations and therefore people subscribing to other religions were granted full civic rights by the virtue of the Quran and through the application of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Non- Muslim populations living within Muslim communities were granted peaceful and prosperous life through guaranteeing security for both their lives and properties and were given the appellation of "ahl al-Dhimma" which denotes those people with whom Muslims have an agreement or the responsibility of their personal safety and security of their property are undertaken by the Muslim state. Muslims were prohibited under severe penalties from violating and abusing the provisions of the Charter. Prophet Muhammad was adamant to ensure religious freedom to non-Muslims across the Islamic state and for this reason he sent instructions to distant Muslims governors not to tax them unfairly or enforce them to abandon their faith. Their churches and sanctuaries could not be pulled down and replaced by mosques or houses for Muslims. Moreover, Muslims were asked to cooperate with Christians should they need an assistance for the repair of their churches or monasteries or any other matter related to their religion. Prophet Muhammad was keen to grant religious minorities sufficient judicial autonomy which was a basic characteristic of the Islamic legal system. Through granting religious freedom to different religious groups, the Prophet meant to set guidelines on how we should treat each other fairly which leads to the prevention of blood shed and wars among nations. The Prophet throughout his life had a tenacity of the purpose of establishing peace among nations through signing different pacts, and treaties to ensure peaceful coexistence and security to all people. This is proven through pacts like the Peace of Hudayibiyah and the Treaty of Taif. Another famous example is the treaty of Najran which was delivered to Christians of Najran and it surrounding area. The document reads, " To the Christians of Najran and its surrounding territories, the security of God and the pledge of His Prophet is extended for their lives, religion and their property- to the present as well as the absent, and others besides, there shall be no interference within the practice of their faith or their observance nor any change in their rights and privileges, no bishop shall be removed from his bishopric, nor any priest from his priesthood, nor any monk from his monastery, and they shall continue to enjoy everything great and small as heretofore no image or cross hall be destroyed, they shall not oppress or be oppressed; they shall not practice the rights of blood-vengeance as in the Days of Ignorance, nor shall they be required to furnish provisions for the troops". Does Quran and Islam say kill Jews, Christians and Non Muslims? - Yusuf Estes 6- after 9/11Any disaster attributed to Muslims Possible to be a Jew murderer or a Christian murderer To the interests of political Like many of the things attributed to Muslims unfairly charges - See here After the slander and lies against Islam in the events of 9/11 God grant victory to Islam after the injustice directly - Nonetheless, even after the events of September, a wave of new Muslims embraced Islam all over the world. In the USA alone, more than 30000 persons embraced Islam. - CNN - after 9/11 she converted to ISLAM, this is WHY ? youtube - - امريكية مسيحية تدافع عن الاسلام - American Christian defends Islam youtube Dr. Zakir Naik : The 9/11 was an inside job / 11 7- Prophet Muhammad in the Old and New Testament Prophesies of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the Jewish Scriptures - Dr Zakir Naik Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) Prophesied in the Bible in the Gospel of John - Dr Zakir Naik I'm really surprised that you, like me, are talking about religion and not just science Why did the admin close my topics?! I think that those in charge do not want people to know the true Islam So watch this video Misconceptions about Islam \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Edited February 21 by Phi for All videos removed by moderator -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 4 hours ago, eninn said: You must study Islam in specialized Islamic centers and not from anti-Islam websites and fake media death penalty for adultsry In all Abrahamic religions, the crime of adultery has a penalty In Islam, flogging, and in the Bible, stoning 2- in the Qur’an kill the apostate in one case, which is The state of war when this person joins the enemy and reveals the secrets of his country to the enemies and exposes people to occupation and killing A verse : “There is no compulsion in Faith. The correct way has become distinct from the erroneous. Now, whoever rejects the Tāghūt (the Rebel, the Satan) and believes in Allah has a firm grasp on the strongest ring that never breaks. Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing. "(Quran, 2: 256) Another "And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, [O Muḥammad], would you compel the people in order that they become believers? (Quran, 10:99) In the exceptional case that we are in a situation of war, this is absolutely true, because whoever leaves his religion is guilty of treason in the eyes of an entire community and threatens the safety of many people. And in all the societies that have existed on this planet, not just in Islam, the traitors have always received the heaviest sentences. “It is impossible that an individual who studies the personality of the great Prophet of the Arabs, how he lived and educated the people, does not feel a deep esteem and a great respect for this honorable Prophet, one of the great Messengers of 'Allah' at that time means 1400 yrs ago, this rule of killing a murtad because of some another reasons and conditions was applicable but not because that he became murtad. If a person can join Islam willingly , then he has the right to leave it also. Because Islam advocates freedom of religion. Think if in a non-muslim country if a nonmuslim becomes muslim and government is killing that person because of becoming a muslim then we muslims will cry for freedom of religion. حكم المرتد في الاسلام - ذاكر نايك Dr Zakir Naik about killing murtad in islam https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbsejG--znc 3- The status of women in Islam In Islam, women are respected and they are not oppressed. “In Islam, women are not loved, have no rights, and are subjugated,” you may have heard. It’s possible that some of the things mentioned about Muslim women are untrue. When we examine the life of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w., we can discover that these assertions are completely false. Despite the fact that he was sent at a period when women were largely seen to be inferior and undervalued, he led by example with his courteous treatment of women. Although Islam recognises that men and women are not the same, the Quran explicitly states that they are equal in creation and in Allah’s sight: https://islamtheultimatepeace.com/how-prophet-muhammad-pbuh-honoured-women/ “Women’s Right to Public and Political Office in Islam”, by H.E. Sheikh Ahmed Zaki Yamani https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxQHrIegl0o Rights of a Wife in Islam - Dr Zakir Naik 4- allah is God (the Father) only \Allah God is One, from Adam to Muhammad, peace be upon them But people have turned away from worshiping God according to their own whims It doesn’t make sense that God sends countless Prophets like Noah, Abraham and Moses to tell people to believe in one God, and then suddenly sends a radically different message of the Trinity which contradicts his previous Prophets teachings. It is clear that the sect of Christianity who believed Jesus to be a human Prophet and nothing more, were following the true teachings of Jesus. This is because their concept of God is the same as that which was taught by the Prophets in the Old Testament. The truth is that Jesus preached the same message that the Prophets in the Old Testament preached. There is a passage in the Bible which really emphasizes his core message. A man came to Jesus and asked “Which is the first commandment of all?”Jesus answered, “The first of all the commandments is Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.’’[Mark 12:28-29]. So the greatest commandment, the most important belief according to Jesus is that God is one. If Jesus was God he would have said ‘I am God, worship me’, but he didn’t. He merely repeated a verse from the Old Testament confirming that God is One. God says in the Qur’anO People of the Book, do not commit excesses in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers and do not speak of a ‘Trinity’– stop [this], that is better for you– God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust. [4:171] Islam is not just another religion. It is the same message preached by Moses, Jesus and Abraham. Islam literally means ‘submission to God’ and it teaches us to have a direct relationship with God. It reminds us that since God created us, no one should be worshipped except God alone. It also teaches that God is nothing like a human being or like anything that we can imagine. The concept of God is summarized in the Quran as: “Say, He is God, the One. God, the Absolute. He does not give birth, nor was He born, and there is nothing like Him.” (Quran 112:1-4)[4] "Jesus Christ (pbuh) never claimed that he is God" - Dr Zakir Naik 5- Islam is not violent against non-Muslims Islam is a comprehensive way of life to guide humanity and solve its problems As well as the mercy of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, to people, whether friends or enemies Whereas other systems have failed to solve humanity's problems We tell the enemies of Islam where is the beheading, the bad treatment of women and the bad treatment of non-Muslims I advise them to study the tolerant Islam because Islam has nothing to do with the wrong customs and traditions of people I advise them to look at their bloody books and their bloody policy towards the world Treatment of non-Muslims in Islam The general policy in Islam is to guarantee full rights to non- Muslim populations and therefore people subscribing to other religions were granted full civic rights by the virtue of the Quran and through the application of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Non- Muslim populations living within Muslim communities were granted peaceful and prosperous life through guaranteeing security for both their lives and properties and were given the appellation of "ahl al-Dhimma" which denotes those people with whom Muslims have an agreement or the responsibility of their personal safety and security of their property are undertaken by the Muslim state. Muslims were prohibited under severe penalties from violating and abusing the provisions of the Charter. Prophet Muhammad was adamant to ensure religious freedom to non-Muslims across the Islamic state and for this reason he sent instructions to distant Muslims governors not to tax them unfairly or enforce them to abandon their faith. Their churches and sanctuaries could not be pulled down and replaced by mosques or houses for Muslims. Moreover, Muslims were asked to cooperate with Christians should they need an assistance for the repair of their churches or monasteries or any other matter related to their religion. Prophet Muhammad was keen to grant religious minorities sufficient judicial autonomy which was a basic characteristic of the Islamic legal system. Through granting religious freedom to different religious groups, the Prophet meant to set guidelines on how we should treat each other fairly which leads to the prevention of blood shed and wars among nations. The Prophet throughout his life had a tenacity of the purpose of establishing peace among nations through signing different pacts, and treaties to ensure peaceful coexistence and security to all people. This is proven through pacts like the Peace of Hudayibiyah and the Treaty of Taif. Another famous example is the treaty of Najran which was delivered to Christians of Najran and it surrounding area. The document reads, " To the Christians of Najran and its surrounding territories, the security of God and the pledge of His Prophet is extended for their lives, religion and their property- to the present as well as the absent, and others besides, there shall be no interference within the practice of their faith or their observance nor any change in their rights and privileges, no bishop shall be removed from his bishopric, nor any priest from his priesthood, nor any monk from his monastery, and they shall continue to enjoy everything great and small as heretofore no image or cross hall be destroyed, they shall not oppress or be oppressed; they shall not practice the rights of blood-vengeance as in the Days of Ignorance, nor shall they be required to furnish provisions for the troops". Does Quran and Islam say kill Jews, Christians and Non Muslims? - Yusuf Estes 6- after 9/11Any disaster attributed to Muslims Possible to be a Jew murderer or a Christian murderer To the interests of political Like many of the things attributed to Muslims unfairly charges - See here After the slander and lies against Islam in the events of 9/11 God grant victory to Islam after the injustice directly - Nonetheless, even after the events of September, a wave of new Muslims embraced Islam all over the world. In the USA alone, more than 30000 persons embraced Islam. - CNN - after 9/11 she converted to ISLAM, this is WHY ? youtube - - امريكية مسيحية تدافع عن الاسلام - American Christian defends Islam youtube Dr. Zakir Naik : The 9/11 was an inside job / 11 7- Prophet Muhammad in the Old and New Testament Prophesies of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the Jewish Scriptures - Dr Zakir Naik Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) Prophesied in the Bible in the Gospel of John - Dr Zakir Naik I'm really surprised that you, like me, are talking about religion and not just science Why did the admin close my topics?! I think that those in charge do not want people to know the true Islam So watch this video Misconceptions about Islam \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ I think it's important to point out that Islam allows its followers to lie to non believers and that Dr Zakir Naik is one of the most prolific liars in the apologetic game. All the stuff that has been asserted here is nothing but baseless claims, before you start trying to use the koran to dictate reality you need to establish the that a god of any kind exists then you need to show that your god exists then we can (maybe) begin to debate the truth of the koran. BTW, good luck with the whole flying horse and splitting the moon in half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MigL Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 9 hours ago, eninn said: In all Abrahamic religions, the crime of adultery has a penalty In Islam, flogging, and in the Bible, stoning When was the last time a Christian or a Jew got stoned ( not on drugs ) for adultery ? When was the last time a Muslim woman got flogged ( or stoned ) for adultery, or even for being raped ? Sadly it is never the men, even the rapists. ( so much for the rights of women, or even wives ) This is the 21st Century, all other religions realize that a religion based on thousand year old texts cannot be governance or the law. When is Islam going to realize that ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otto Kretschmer Posted February 21 Author Share Posted February 21 By the way, death penalty for adultery is not a part of Christianity because the Law of Moses is considered to be no longer in force by Christians - it was abrogated with the coming of Jesus. It does technically exist in Judaism but it's not used because Talmud sets an absurdally high requirements for implementing death penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eninn Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 (edited) Army and police officers / in Europe and America 🇺🇸 convert to Islam ☝️ From Atheist to Imam! - Stressful Shahadah Moments! @UTICAMASJID Why did these 5 Scientists Finally Accept Islam Over 1000 American Soldiers Accepts Islam I Wanted To Kill Muslims — Now I Am One | AJ+ Miss Czech converts to Islam Edited February 21 by Phi for All videos removed by moderator -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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