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Your thoughts on Islam?


Otto Kretschmer

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4 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I'm a Humanist, and I believe in humans. Are you saying your gods are just as real?

No, I'm saying my god is just as real as your's...

6 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

I read what it says not what I want it to say.

What did you want it say?

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2 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

No, I'm saying my god is just as real as your's...

I don't have a god... because I see no empirical evidence of gods, goddesses, demons, devils, or anything else not demonstrably part of objective reality.  

5 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

No, I'm saying my god is just as real as your's...

What did you want it say?

I don't want it to say anything, I simply read what it actually says. 

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3 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

I don't have a god... because I see no empirical evidence of gods, goddesses, demons, devils, or anything else not demonstrably part of objective reality.  

That's the Dawkins Delusion, I don't have a god therefore no one else can...

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

That's the Dawkins Delusion, I don't have a god therefore no one else can...

You have the theist delusion, your need for a sky daddy is sad.  I can call you delusional with just as much authority as you have to call me delusional. 

The only thing that matters is what you can show, what you believe is meaningless. 

Edited by Moontanman
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18 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

It depends on what you want to discuss?

No it does not, if you don't care about truth then there is no way to have a discussion about what is true. 

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This discussion has gotten pointless.

Moon's objection to Dim's argument is that Religion tells Dim what to believe.
He thinks that's wrong, so he's telling Dim what to believe.
Both are forgetting that this is a belief, not a fact.
And now someone is trying to force that belief under punishment of red demerit points ( way worse than burning in hell  😄 ).

The argument that something is 'real' is also ineffective.
If reality is what we perceive, signals subjectively interpreted by our brains, then someone tripping on acid sees a different reality than I do.
I'm told it's pedantic, and sharing a reality is what makes it 'real'; would a group of color blind people who don't see the color red assume there is no color red ?
Or for that matter, why is shared reality period dependent; in earlier times, no one could detect IR or UV radiation, so it didn't exist ????

As for Phi believing in humans, not Gods ...
Donald Trump has a few stories to tell you; all his followers believe in him !

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, MigL said:

This discussion has gotten pointless.

Moon's objection to Dim's argument is that Religion tells Dim what to believe.
He thinks that's wrong, so he's telling Dim what to believe.

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No, don't put word in my mouth, Dim is welcome to believe whatever he wants, my problem comes in when he tries to assert his belief as the truth

Both are forgetting that this is a belief, not a fact.

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I am not asserting a belief, I am asserting that I do not believe without empirical evidence and to assert something as true that you cannot show to be true does not make it true.  

And now someone is trying to force that belief under punishment of red demerit points ( way worse than burning in hell  😄 ).

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That is my down vote and your assertion that I am somehow trying to enforce my lack of belief in his fairy tale as belief is simply wrong. 

The argument that something is 'real' is also ineffective.
If reality is what we perceive, signals subjectively interpreted by our brains, then someone tripping on acid sees a different reality than I do.

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No, what we perceive is not necessarily true but we can put those beliefs to the test to see if they comport with reality independent of what we believe or want to believe or even think should be true. 


I'm told it's pedantic, and sharing a reality is what makes it 'real'; would a group of color blind people who don't see the color red assume there is no color red ?
Or for that matter, why is shared reality period dependent; in earlier times, no one could detect IR or UV radiation, so it didn't exist ????

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All those things can be tested as to their veracity and the difference in perception can be removed from the equation.  

As for Phi believing in humans, not Gods ...
Donald Trump has a few stories to tell you; all his followers believe in him !

Belief does not dictate truth no matter what disgusting lump of human excrement you follow. 

I've been a member of this forum for many years and I have always been told that if you assert something as true then you have to show it. I am not asserting a belief I am asking dim to show his beliefs are true, if that is wrong then I wonder why I have been called on showing the truth of any and all assertions I have made here over the years. If the truth of it doesn't matter then why does this forum even exist? 

Edited by Moontanman
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There's a reason we use different words for 'beliefs' and 'facts'.
Only one of the two is evidence based.
It is my belief that 'beliefs', 'realities' and 'truths' are subjective, and not factual.

I'll leave it to you to decide if that requires  evidence.

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1 minute ago, MigL said:

There's a reason we use different words for 'beliefs' and 'facts'.
Only one of the two is evidence based.
It is my belief that 'beliefs', 'realities' and 'truths' are subjective, and not factual.

I'll leave it to you to decide if that requires  evidence.

It's your subjective belief, you are entitled to it, just don't try to convince others its an objective truth. Its important to me that I only believe things that can be shown to be true, what we believe quite often decides our actions if you believe something is true that is not then you risk thinking others should act or conform to those beliefs. If you believe that everyone has to believe the way you do, or at least live under laws that enforce your beliefs then you need to justify that belief.   

Again if what is true is not important to you then I have no reason to discuss anything with you based on your own admission that truth doesn't matter to you. 

Why does solipsism keep coming to mind here? 

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4 hours ago, Moontanman said:

Again if what is true is not important to you then I have no reason to discuss anything with you based on your own admission that truth doesn't matter to you. 

That is not what I said.
My truth is important to me ( and to Dim ) just as much as yours is important to you.
That's the whole point, 'truth', as well as 'reality' and belief' are subjective, and ther are 8 Billion different ones on this world alone.

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3 minutes ago, MigL said:

That is not what I said.
My truth is important to me ( and to Dim ) just as much as yours is important to you.
That's the whole point, 'truth', as well as 'reality' and belief' are subjective, and ther are 8 Billion different ones on this world alone.

Dim said he didn't "give a shit about the truth" and we, quite evidently, have a completely different definition of truth.

In my world truth is that which you can demonstrate to be true, not what you want to true or what you believe to be true. Evidently in your world the word truth is somewhat iffy depending on your belief. 

Truth, reality, and belief depend on the individual yet when someone on this forum asserts something as true they are expected to back up that assertion with data, evidently you and Dim are outside that  parameter. 

No need to argue the earth isn't flat because if that is what is believed then it must be the reality... WOW, UFOs must be alien space craft, vaccines don't work because there are people who don't believe they do and... oh my goodness all I have to do is believe and I can fly, come on Tinker Bell let's fly away to never never land!

Chaos rules! Everything is a we believe it to be!   

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3 minutes ago, Moontanman said:

on this forum asserts something as true they are expected to back up that assertion with data, evidently you and Dim are outside that  parameter

Usually done by citing someone else's 'truth' which closely matches our own.

It was 'true' that the Earth was flat until 2500 years ago in ancient Greece ( or was it Alexandria, Egypt ? ).

So 'truth', can change, so it is not absolute; even in science nothing is proven tru, only falsifiable.

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2 minutes ago, MigL said:

Usually done by citing someone else's 'truth' which closely matches our own.

It was 'true' that the Earth was flat until 2500 years ago in ancient Greece ( or was it Alexandria, Egypt ? ).

So 'truth', can change, so it is not absolute; even in science nothing is proven tru, only falsifiable.

you win, I am evidently a dumb ass because I cannot accept that truth is subjective, I'll leave you and Dim to it.

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4 hours ago, Moontanman said:

It's your subjective belief, you are entitled to it, just don't try to convince others its an objective truth. Its important to me that I only believe things that can be shown to be true...

This is the dominant definition of truth in the past century - that truth is by definition statements that correspond to an objectively determinable state of affairs in the world.  The basic idea of the correspondence theory is that what we believe or say is true if it corresponds to the way things actually are – to the facts. This idea can be seen in various forms throughout the history of philosophy, but it really got serious traction with folks like G. E. Moore and Bertrand Russell.  So you're in pretty good company, and I would say the correspondence theory has generally been adopted by scientists.  8 billion people may entertain myriad beliefs but those cannot gain the status of truth, or true statements, unless they correspond to objectively determined facts.  E.g. "I see the light is red," is subjective, but "Anyone who measures the light finds its wavelength to be 650 nm," is true because it does not change due to variations in human perception, i.e. it corresponds to a fact external to a particular perceiver.  

 

21 minutes ago, MigL said:

So 'truth', can change, so it is not absolute; even in science nothing is proven true, only falsifiable.

Beliefs can change.  "The earth is flat" was a belief that eventually was shown not to match the reality.  So it was never true, because the earth has always been an oblate spheroid.  The truth has not changed with respect to the earth, our beliefs have.  Now our beliefs correspond better to the fact that the earth is round.  But the truth was always what it was - in that sense, it is objective, because it doesn't "care" what we believe.  The epistemological goal of humans is to improve our perceptions and measurements and inferences from them to get closer to the truth - the objective reality outside our heads.  Were this not the case, no one would bother with science or philosophy and we would bow to chaos.

59 minutes ago, MigL said:

My truth is important to me ( and to Dim ) just as much as yours is important to you.

To reiterate, there is no such thing as "my truth."  Truth, by its definition at least since the Enlightenment era, is that the truth is out there in the world and not something that only corresponds to one person's belief system.  I keep hammering on this because I see many people veering towards solipsism (as Moon mentioned) and the incoherent notions of personal truth or alternative facts.   If it's personal, and only personal, then it's an opinion or a belief or a conjecture or a feeling.  Not a truth.  

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We all seem to be forgeting the context of this discussion, maybe the science of awe can bring some perspective to my position.

I'm not saying god is true, but for some people god brings a sense of awe, that other's find on the summit of Everest; and for most it brings a sense of happiness among other thing's:

The Power of Sharing Moments of Awe | Psychology Today

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KEY POINTS

Experiences of awe shift one's focus outward instead of inward to think beyond self-referencing thoughts.

States of awe can unlock people's perception of themselves and others from their biased narratives.

Awe allows people to see beyond their expectations and “predictive coding” to the reality in front of them.

 

 Fundamentally all I'm saying is, the Quran contains a philosophy that's worth reading even for athiests.

 

17 hours ago, Moontanman said:

Why do you care? 

I don't, I'm just trying to hold up a mirror to your objections, then maybe you can see for yourself.

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10 hours ago, TheVat said:

Beliefs can change.  "The earth is flat" was a belief that eventually was shown not to match the reality.  So it was never true, because the earth has always been an oblate spheroid.

That may be what you believe, I, however, do not.

five thousand years ago, it was true that the Earth was flat, and that matched their reality as close as they could measure.
Today our truth matches a different reality.
To me, it makes no sense to define one subjective concept, truth,  using another subjective concept, reality, because then I will ask you to define reality.
And I don't think you can do that.
( I know I can't )

@Moontanman I assure you my stubbornness was not meant to offend you in any way, but I, just like you and others, am wedded to my beliefs.
It seems, these days, we are all more agreeable to changing our minds about facts, than we are about beliefs.

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9 minutes ago, MigL said:

It seems, these days, we are all more agreeable to changing our minds about facts, than we are about beliefs.

Indeed but as far as anyone can tell, the idea of a flat earth is only now/recently believed; does that mean we're getting stupider?

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