How does gender dysphoria develop?

[Steve81]

I asked this question on the transgender athletes forum, and it was suggested I start a new topic on the subject, so here it is.

The original post for those interested in the context.

I never honestly considered one way or the other whether I should identify as a male or a female. I was born and assigned male at that time, and that was that.

I will note that I hardly fit the mold of a stereotypical “man’s man”. I don’t care for sports in general, I have 0 skills using power tools, etc. 

So I guess my question is, how does gender dysphoria develop in the first place?

[Genady]

Like any other mental disorder? 

[geordief]

40 minutes ago, Genady said:

Like any other mental disorder? 

is it rather  a social maladaptation?

 

To what extent should society accommodate people with different physical  makeups?

 

100%  unless the maladaptation is intrinsically harmful? 

 

I thought it was practically a truism that we all incorporate a male/female mentality to a degree unless we are brought up in a single gender group) or  like Mowgli with animals

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mowgli

Edited August 12, 2023 by geordief

[Genady]

19 minutes ago, geordief said:

is it rather  a social maladaptation?

Gender dysphoria (GD) | Definition, History, Symptoms, Treatment, & Facts | Britannica:

Quote

gender dysphoria (GD), also known as gender identity disorder (GID), formal diagnosis given by mental health professionals to people who experience distress because of a significant incongruence between the gender with which they personally identify and the gender with which they were born. The GD diagnosis appears in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition (DSM-5; 2013), the American Psychiatric Association’s (APA’s) official listing of psychiatric disorders.

 

[geordief]

1 hour ago, Genady said:

Gender dysphoria (GD) | Definition, History, Symptoms, Treatment, & Facts | Britannica:

 

That is a medical definition.And by definition a societal definition .It doesn't really address the question as to whether someone so described  is  actually "ill"** or just a square bolt in a round societal hole.

 

We have seen how  psychiatry has been and is being abused as a means of punishment for political reasons.

 

When a brother of a friend of mine  flew off the handle and wrecked the business establishment in a rage it was put to her by the police  that she could have him put away  for a supposed mental disorder.

 

 

Of course ,she d id not do that  but that is an example of how the medical profession can be abused.

 

Of course the medical profession has to deal with the circumstances as they find it but it should be a question as to whether the situation they find would be as difficult if society was more accepting of differences in the first place.

 

Seems to me those with the "disorder" might be able to accept (and adapt)their situation if they had a supportive environment.

 

To disclose my bias ,this was my reading material back in the day

"The maverick psychiatrist RD Laing once described insanity as "a perfectly rational response to an insane world"

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/sep/02/rd-laing-mental-health-sanity

 

**"disorder" implies" illness" implies "less worthiness" ,I would have thought.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by geordief

[Genady]

2 minutes ago, geordief said:

That is a medical definition.And by definition a societal definition .It doesn't really address the question as to whether someone so described  is  actually "ill"** or just a square bolt in a round societal hole.

 

We have seen how  psychiatry has been and is being abused as a means of punishment for political reasons.

 

When a brother of a friend of mine  flew off the handle and wrecked the business establishment in a rage it was put to her by the police  that she could have him put away  for a supposed mental disorder.

 

Of course ,she d id not do that  but that is an example of how the medical profession can be abused.

 

Of course the medical profession has to deal with the circumstances as they find it but it should be a question as to whether the situation they find would be as difficult if society was more accepting of differences in the first place.

 

Seems to me those with the "disorder" might be able to accept (and adapt)their situation if they had a supportive environment.

 

**"disorder" implies" illness" implies "less worthiness" ,I would have thought.

 

 

I don't see why it is not a disorder.

I don't see what being a disorder has to do with abuses which happen in all professions.

I don't see what it has to do with "worthiness".

[TheVat]

 

17 minutes ago, Genady said:

I don't see what it has to do with "worthiness".

Perhaps he is speaking of how people respond when another person's behavior is framed as an illness, compared to when it's framed as expressing oneself.  For example, if we see someone speaking angrily as a proper response to injustice or other wrongs, we may applaud, whereas if we hear their words as paranoid ranting we may move away and even contact authorities.

So perhaps how gender dysphoria is labeled makes a difference in how persons are treated, and also policies on treatments like HRT and GRA, where the person's inwardly perceived gender is affirmed by physical alterations.  And, erm , also impacts that topic that SFN devoted 85 pages to, which I call The Chat That Wouldn't Die.

 

[swansont]

Here’s a link I shared earlier in the other thread. It discusses possible biological and social influences

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_gender_incongruence

[Genady]

From the @swansont's link above:

Quote

The most studied factors are biological, especially brain structure differences with relation to biology and sexual orientation. Environmental factors have also been proposed.

 

On 8/12/2023 at 10:59 AM, TheVat said:

if we see someone speaking angrily as a proper response to injustice or other wrongs, we may applaud, whereas if we hear their words as paranoid ranting we may move away and even contact authorities.

There are criteria in the disorder definitions that are aimed to distinguish between these situations.

 

On 8/12/2023 at 10:29 AM, geordief said:

"The maverick psychiatrist RD Laing once described insanity as "a perfectly rational response to an insane world"

This is very wrong, from my experience.

 

In a normally functioning system, including human's body, different parts should cooperate with each other. When parts of the system are in conflict, there is a disorder. When a system or its parts are in conflict with the outside world, it is not a sign of disorder.

On 8/12/2023 at 10:59 AM, TheVat said:

So perhaps how gender dysphoria is labeled makes a difference in how persons are treated

When a person has a disorder, good neighbors help the person to live as happily as possible.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Genady

[iNow]

2 hours ago, Genady said:

When a person has a disorder

There's opportunity to realize how labelling something as a "disorder" brings with it a negative connotation and inherently judgemental valance, whereas simply accepting the characteristic as something specific to that individual allows us to take a more neutral approach and provides opportunity to avoid treating them as somehow "other" or not normal... "one-of" instead of "less-than."

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by iNow

[Genady]

Maybe just to replace the word disorder with something that does not have this connotation. How about special circumstances? Other suggestions are welcomed.

[iNow]

Is a label needed at all, or shall we just call them Bruce and Loretta (or whatever)?

[Genady]

No problem for me, but what is that term in the OP?

[iNow]

4 minutes ago, Genady said:

No problem for me, but what is that term in the OP?

It's an opportunity to answer thusly:

Gender dysphoria develops by noticing a pattern (which we see everywhere even when none is really there), applying a label to it, then trying to find common variables which seem to be involved with this arbitrary category we just created. For the most part, these labels and patterns are ever evolving, often get discarded, and frequently are unhelpful. They also have tremendous overlap with other patterns we've forced on to the territory, and the one we choose as our lens on the world varies from one moment to the next and based on context and desired outcome. 

This isn't really directed at you, btw... just used your comment as a springboard for a larger point. 

[Genady]

7 minutes ago, iNow said:

It's an opportunity to answer thusly:

Gender dysphoria develops by noticing a pattern (which we see everywhere even when none is really there), applying a label to it, then trying to find common variables which seem to be involved with this arbitrary category we just created. For the most part, these labels and patterns are ever evolving, often get discarded, and frequently are unhelpful. They also have tremendous overlap with other patterns we've forced on to the territory, and the one we choose as our lens on the world varies from one moment to the next and based on context and desired outcome. 

This isn't really directed at you, btw... just used your comment as a springboard for a larger point. 

I see. Just like any other model, e.g., ether. 

[TheVat]

3 hours ago, Genady said:

When a person has a disorder, good neighbors help the person to live as happily as possible.

Edited 2 hours ago by Genady

Indeed, and I guess the challenge for society is how to remove the stigma from a disorder without removing the help.  It's unfortunate how people have historically tended to have different rules and levels of sympathy for physical and mental disorders.  

 

[Phi for All]

On 8/15/2023 at 5:31 AM, Genady said:

In a normally functioning system, including human's body, different parts should cooperate with each other. When parts of the system are in conflict, there is a disorder. When a system or its parts are in conflict with the outside world, it is not a sign of disorder.

I was discussing something similar regarding autism recently. Many folks viewing autism as a "disorder" point out that some on the spectrum find it hard to look others in the eye. Using your argument above, perhaps the reason some autistic people don't like looking at people's faces is because they don't see the parts cooperating. Many in our society slap on a false smile that jars with their eyes or the rest of their body posture, or otherwise exhibit "normal" behavior that can seem false and weird to someone with high sensitivity.

So in this instance, who has the "disorder", the person who is giving off mixed signals about their state of mind, or the person sensitive enough to pick up on it? And wrt gender dysphoria, might not some of these folks simply be more sensitive rather than conflicted?

[Genady]

29 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I was discussing something similar regarding autism recently. Many folks viewing autism as a "disorder" point out that some on the spectrum find it hard to look others in the eye. Using your argument above, perhaps the reason some autistic people don't like looking at people's faces is because they don't see the parts cooperating. Many in our society slap on a false smile that jars with their eyes or the rest of their body posture, or otherwise exhibit "normal" behavior that can seem false and weird to someone with high sensitivity.

So in this instance, who has the "disorder", the person who is giving off mixed signals about their state of mind, or the person sensitive enough to pick up on it? And wrt gender dysphoria, might not some of these folks simply be more sensitive rather than conflicted?

Given this sign only, I don't see any of them having a disorder.

[Steve81]

I appreciate all the thoughtful comments on this topic, especially @swansont's helpful link to Wikipedia (why didn't I think of that 😆).

A question from one snippet of the content at Wikipedia:

A 2008 study compared the genes of 112 trans women who were mostly already undergoing hormone treatment, with 258 cisgender male controls. Trans women were more likely than cisgender males to have a longer version of a receptor gene (longer repetitions of the gene) for the sex hormone androgen, which reduced its effectiveness at binding testosterone.^[5] The androgen receptor (NR3C4) is activated by the binding of testosterone or dihydrotestosterone, where it plays a critical role in the forming of primary and secondary male sex characteristics. The research weakly suggests reduced androgen and androgen signaling contributes to trans women's identity. The authors say that a decrease in testosterone levels in the brain during development might prevent complete masculinization of trans women's brains, thereby causing a more feminized brain and a female gender identity.

Does this suggest a spectrum, explaining the tendency of some males to be more effeminate, and in the ultimate case, gender dysphoric?