Bmpbmp1975 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 So I am trying to understand the following and was told not to hijack a thread One of the most important (and hardest) lessons to learn in science is that "we don't know" is a valid answer. And often it is the only, or the best, answer we have. All other answers have a level of uncertainty associated with them, so we rarely (if ever) know things for sure. so my question is does this apply to everything we think we know about science or physics? example: why we see about the Higgs bosom or Higgs field is it all just we don’t know and think we are right. how do we know our data if we have any is right? how do we know we are right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 This isn’t physics On another note, it’s also not rocket science Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghideon Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 53 minutes ago, Bmpbmp1975 said: One of the most important (and hardest) lessons to learn in science is that "we don't know" is a valid answer It is also worth noting that a lot of interesting since is based on things that cannot be known, even in principle. So that the answer is "We will never know" is the correct answer. Random processes for instance. Caesium-137 has a rather well known half-life. But predicting exactly witch atom in a sample of Caesium-137 atoms to be the next one to decay is not possible AFIK. 27 minutes ago, Bmpbmp1975 said: Not vacuum constant but if all our science is I don’t know then the whole concept that vacuum decay can destroy the universe billions of years from now may be wrong. 1: We do not, AFIK, have conclusive data that vacuum decay is even possible. 2: We do know that the universe seems to have been able to avoid decaying for more than 13 billion years. Why would anyone draw the conclusion, given the above, that universe is running the risk of being destroyed in the near future? Isn't the logical interpretation of data that universe is likely to continue to exist in its current form for a long time? Note that there are many other bad things that can happen and that according to physics have some microscopic probability > 0 (rather than exactly mathematically zero). That does not mean that any of those things will likely ever happen in the lifetime of the universe. 14 minutes ago, Bmpbmp1975 said: So what we saw with the level of the Higgs may be a newer state that means it can happen shortly ? What did we see that confirms a new state? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmpbmp1975 Posted February 22, 2020 Author Share Posted February 22, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Ghideon said: It is also worth noting that a lot of interesting since is based on things that cannot be known, even in principle. So that the answer is "We will never know" is the correct answer. Random processes for instance. Caesium-137 has a rather well known half-life. But predicting exactly witch atom in a sample of Caesium-137 atoms to be the next one to decay is not possible AFIK. 1: We do not, AFIK, have conclusive data that vacuum decay is even possible. 2: We do know that the universe seems to have been able to avoid decaying for more than 13 billion years. Why would anyone draw the conclusion, given the above, that universe is running the risk of being destroyed in the near future? Isn't the logical interpretation of data that universe is likely to continue to exist in its current form for a long time? Note that there are many other bad things that can happen and that according to physics have some microscopic probability > 0 (rather than exactly mathematically zero). That does not mean that any of those things will likely ever happen in the lifetime of the universe. What did we see that confirms a new state? Here the thing we don’t know what the previous state was, we have no way of proving that what science says is valid Edited February 22, 2020 by Bmpbmp1975 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiot Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Ghideon said: But predicting exactly witch atom in a sample of Caesium-137 atoms to be the next one to decay is not possible AFIK. Even if there is only one atom of Caesium left? 1 hour ago, Bmpbmp1975 said: how do we know our data if we have any is right? how do we know we are right? We don't. The classic example is the second law of thermodynamics,developed in the 18202 and 1830s. By 1880 they were teaching "We don't know why this law is what is is, but it has never been observed to be broken" In 1990 they were still teaching this since no failure had been observed. I fully expect them to still be teaching it in 2090. The longer it goes on repeating a result the more confidence we have in what we know. Edited February 22, 2020 by studiot spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghideon Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 Just now, studiot said: Even if there is only one atom of Caesium left? I said a sample of Caesium-137 atoms. I tried (but failed) to imply that a number greater than one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Bmpbmp1975 said: Here the thing we don’t know what the previous state was, we have no way of proving that what science says is valid In science, you need to forget about 'proof' and think more in terms of the level of confidence assigned to any given evidence. Edited February 22, 2020 by StringJunky 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiot Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, StringJunky said: In science, you need to forget about 'proof' and think more in terms of the level of confidence assigned to any given evidence. Yo baby. +1 3 minutes ago, Ghideon said: I said a sample of Caesium-137 atoms. I tried (but failed) to imply that a number greater than one. It was only the minutest nit anyway, I agree with pretty much all you have said. (But surely a sample of atoms could contain only 1 atom ?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghideon Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Bmpbmp1975 said: Here the thing we don’t know what the previous state was, we have no way of proving that what science says is valid Proof is for math. Physics is about evidence supporting a model. And if the model time after time predicts an outcome that is supported by observations then the model is considered correct within the area the model is applicable to. Due to random quantum fluctuations there is no way to be mathematically 100% sure what will happen next. Maybe a macroscopic object will appear and cause problems. But since probability is 1 in 10^n where n is some very very large number it is not worth bothering about on a daily basis. 21 minutes ago, Bmpbmp1975 said: So vacuum decay may be real and happen in our lifetime with what they detected at lhc then? No. Why do you think that? 10 minutes ago, Bmpbmp1975 said: why is it anytime I mention vacuum decay everything gets hushed? Maybe because your comment looks like claims that vacuum decay may happen in the near future. But there is overwhelming scientific data in mainstream physics supporting that vacuum decay will not happen. 23 minutes ago, studiot said: It was only the minutest nit anyway, I agree with pretty much all you have said. (But surely a sample of atoms could contain only 1 atom ?) My answer (and also in line with the topic) is: I do not know if a sample of atoms could contain only 1 atom. I do not have enough data to make a good guess; this may be a case where Swedish and English differ in a subtle way. But if I have to guess my guess is that you are correct. Hence I appreciate the nit; English is not my first language so I take this as an opportunity to learn some more. Edited February 22, 2020 by Ghideon added citation due to x-post. Spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 ! Moderator Note Moved to speculations but then then split the vacuum decay hijack, so this goes back to mainstream Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmpbmp1975 Posted February 22, 2020 Author Share Posted February 22, 2020 14 minutes ago, Ghideon said: Maybe because your comment looks like claims that vacuum decay may happen in the near future. But there is overwhelming scientific data in mainstream physics supporting that vacuum decay will not happen. But as discussed here all answers are really I don’t know -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghideon Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Bmpbmp1975 said: can happen at anytime There is a difference in science between ”can happen”, ”can happen at any time”, ”will happen” and ”is bound to happen soon”. Your posts seems to be confused about that. Edited February 22, 2020 by Ghideon Spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmpbmp1975 Posted February 22, 2020 Author Share Posted February 22, 2020 1 minute ago, Ghideon said: There is a difference in science between ”can happen”, ”can happen at any time”, ”will happen” and ”is bound to happen soon”. Your posts seems to be confused about that. Not sure what you mean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghideon Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 Just now, Bmpbmp1975 said: Not sure what you mean That kind of confirms my comment I guess. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmpbmp1975 Posted February 22, 2020 Author Share Posted February 22, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Ghideon said: That kind of confirms my comment I guess. No one is willing to answer anytime I ask about vacuum decay posts get closed or sent to trash and I still have no better understanding. not sure why it’s so taboo to ask questions about it Edited February 22, 2020 by Bmpbmp1975 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 8 minutes ago, Bmpbmp1975 said: No one is willing to answer anytime I ask about vacuum decay posts get closed or sent to trash and I still have no better understanding. You seem to want a binary answer and you won't get one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taeto Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Bmpbmp1975 said: No one is willing to answer anytime I ask about vacuum decay posts get closed or sent to trash and I still have no better understanding. not sure why it’s so taboo to ask questions about it Please mention one question that you asked about it, and to which you did not get at least one competent answer. Edited February 22, 2020 by taeto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 13 minutes ago, Bmpbmp1975 said: not sure why it’s so taboo to ask questions about it I have neither the time nor the crayons to clarify your continued misunderstandings 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmpbmp1975 Posted February 22, 2020 Author Share Posted February 22, 2020 6 minutes ago, iNow said: I have neither the time nor the crayons to clarify your continued misunderstandings What misunderstandings to questions that were never answered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 These posts you’re making are as useless as a knitted condom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taeto Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, Bmpbmp1975 said: What misunderstandings to questions that were never answered Example, please. 2 minutes ago, iNow said: These posts you’re making are as useless as a knitted condom That should be "impractical", not useless: www.pinterest.se/pin/201043570837115009/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 11 minutes ago, taeto said: That should be "impractical" I’m unconvinced he’d know what that means Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taeto Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, iNow said: I’m unconvinced he’d know what that means From context, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmpbmp1975 Posted February 22, 2020 Author Share Posted February 22, 2020 Dosent matter when I ask I get made fun or or my post gets closed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Bmpbmp1975 said: Dosent matter when I ask I get made fun or or my post gets closed Answer taeto’s question. He’s asked it 3 or 4 times now. Be specific. Which questions? Quote them. Share a link. By continuing to refuse, you’ll earn two medals. One for being a dumbass and another in case you lose the first one Edited February 22, 2020 by iNow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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