dimreepr Posted July 27, 2019 Author Share Posted July 27, 2019 15 minutes ago, zapatos said: People don't typically give up power because you ask nicely. No, and typically they don't because you force them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 19 minutes ago, dimreepr said: No, and typically they don't because you force them... Hitler, KKK, my bully in high school, slave owners, Jim Crowe, Louis XVI, Rome, Jeffrey Epstein, opponents to gay marriage, etc. There are literally millions of examples to prove you wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted July 27, 2019 Author Share Posted July 27, 2019 8 minutes ago, zapatos said: Hitler, KKK, my bully in high school, slave owners, Jim Crowe, Louis XVI, Rome, Jeffrey Epstein, opponents to gay marriage, etc. There are literally millions of examples to prove you wrong. Are you sure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted July 28, 2019 Author Share Posted July 28, 2019 20 hours ago, zapatos said: Your approach is yours to follow, but if people had followed your example, blacks in the south would still have separate drinking fountains and the British would still be in India. My point is Rosa Parks did what she could, which didn't include force or intolerance; and Gandhi and Mandela etc. They persuaded a lot of people, including the bullies and the intolerant, that there's a better way and it doesn't include intolerance. As I said earlier, it could be argued that Hitler is the exception, but since we took a different path, we'll never know. And that's true of any intolerant stance, and if history teaches us anything; we commit people to die with an intolerant stance and accept some people may die with a tolerant one. But I'm sure we'd get many volunteers with a suitably worded advert in support of an intolerant stance. When Turing broke enigma he had no choice but to accept people will die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, dimreepr said: My point is Rosa Parks did what she could, which didn't include force or intolerance; and Gandhi and Mandela etc. They persuaded a lot of people, including the bullies and the intolerant, that there's a better way and it doesn't include intolerance. As I said earlier, it could be argued that Hitler is the exception, but since we took a different path, we'll never know. And that's true of any intolerant stance, and if history teaches us anything; we commit people to die with an intolerant stance and accept some people may die with a tolerant one. But I'm sure we'd get many volunteers with a suitably worded advert in support of an intolerant stance. When Turing broke enigma he had no choice but to accept people will die. Can you please tell me what your definition of "intolerance" is? If you 'tolerate' something it means you: "allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one does not necessarily like or agree with) without interference." Rosa Parks most certainly did NOT tolerate the rule that said she had to sit in the back of the bus. Edited July 28, 2019 by zapatos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted July 28, 2019 Author Share Posted July 28, 2019 Just now, zapatos said: Can you please tell me what your definition of "intolerance" is? Now your asking... If I say "I don't know" would that answer your question? Do you? Is it more intelligent/tolerant to accept what is to come or plan against it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted July 28, 2019 Share Posted July 28, 2019 31 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Now your asking... If I say "I don't know" would that answer your question? Do you? I gave you my definition 30 post ago. Do you actually read my posts? If you say "I don't know" it would certainly explain a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted July 29, 2019 Author Share Posted July 29, 2019 (edited) 22 hours ago, zapatos said: I gave you my definition 30 post ago. Do you actually read my posts? If you say "I don't know" it would certainly explain a lot. Does it matter? It's essentially a binary question (Not), do I accept or do I reject, but nothing, real, is ever that simple, and nor is a definition that tries... We do what we can, or we ignore what we can't, or we fixate on, what? Edited July 29, 2019 by dimreepr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 5 hours ago, dimreepr said: Does it matter? It's essentially a binary question (Not), do I accept or do I reject, but nothing, real, is ever that simple, and nor is a definition that tries... We do what we can, or we ignore what we can't, or we fixate on, what? Does it matter?!?! You are arguing that people should be tolerant, but you have no idea what it means to be tolerant. I may as well spend my time debating with a begonia. Jesus freaking Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 1 hour ago, zapatos said: Does it matter?!?! You are arguing that people should be tolerant, but you have no idea what it means to be tolerant. I may as well spend my time debating with a begonia. Jesus freaking Christ. I agree. He's using the word in his OP and one would trivially assume he has an idea in mind what it means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 7 hours ago, dimreepr said: Does it matter? It's essentially a binary question (Not), do I accept or do I reject, but nothing, real, is ever that simple, and nor is a definition that tries... We do what we can, or we ignore what we can't, or we fixate on, what? Tolerance isn't a gate, open or closed, or a even a yes or no question. It's a threshold that's different depending on what you're measuring. I have a very low tolerance for discrimination in any form. I have a very high tolerance for the way people choose to look. I found out recently that I have a low tolerance for guests arriving at my parties carrying concealed weapons. My tolerance for barking dogs doing their jobs is pretty high. I don't tolerate drivers tailgating me. My tolerance for the music people choose to listen to is fairly high. We tolerate a particular thing until we no longer can, for whatever reasons our ethics or personality dictate. Once the threshold is crossed, intolerance isn't the issue any more. It's the discrimination, or the hidden gun, or the dangerous driver. And our intolerance can manifest itself in a variety of ways as well. Mine can go from stand and fight, to demanding removal from the premises, to easing right in an offer to let the driver pass. Mostly, my intolerance takes the form of wordsmithed outrage and verbal admonishments designed to express my heavy disapproval. I'm wondering about the "ignore" angle. If I tolerate something, do I necessarily have to ignore it? I probably won't be enthusiastic, but I don't have to pretend it doesn't exist. That may cause problems. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beecee Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 Gee that makes a lot of sense...just above me ^ What I don't tolerate...bloody bullies of any kind. When I was in primary school around 9 years of age, there was a craze going round with all the kids in obtaining rather large Coca Cola badges, the old tin kind. I was one of the last to finally get one and was just finishing class at school, when the local bully, ran up cowardly fashion from behind me, and grabbed my badge of my lapel and threw it on the roof. In those days we carried our books and stuff in globite cases around 18 inches by 12 inches by 6 inches or round about. I was so enraged at this bloke, much bigger then me, that I took an almighty swing with the globite school case and hit him fair square on the side of the head. Just happened that the Principal was walking by and grabbed us both by the collar and dragged us into his office. The bully was bleeding and so went to the first aid station, while I told the Principal what happened. This blokes reputation for bullying was well known, and I was spared the rod/cane, and told to get on home, with a friendly pat on the head. I don't believe that bully ever spoke to me again all through our school years. Another bullying incident involved my Son at about 4 years of age. One day he came inside after being out playing, crying and sporting a red cheek. He told us that another boy same age as him, had hit him. My Mrs being a good Christian women, basically told him to turn the other cheek much to my distress. I never interfered until over a period of a couple of weeks, the same thing happened two more times. I also had observed that the other little fella was being egged on by his two older brothers [around 10 and 11 years of age] After the third time I grabbed my boy and told him if it happened again, to hit Andrew back, as hard as he could. Sure enough, it happened again, and my Boy did what I told him, sending the other little bloke running home crying, while I immediatley had a yarn to the two older brothers. The climax of this story is that my Boy and Andrew have remained the best of mates throughout thir lives and been best man at each others weddings. Didn't stop the Mrs from giving me an earful though. I also abhore tailgating and see it as a form of bullying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted July 30, 2019 Author Share Posted July 30, 2019 16 hours ago, zapatos said: Does it matter?!?! You are arguing that people should be tolerant, but you have no idea what it means to be tolerant. I may as well spend my time debating with a begonia. Jesus freaking Christ. My point is (sigh), intolerance is not the antipode of tolerance since that seemed to be where our discussion was going. To be tolerant means to accept in others something you don't like, a benevolent gesture, intolerance is far from benevolent. There's a lot of talk of bullies in this thread (I don't like them either) but in our crusade to condemn them we forget what created them, so we glory in their comeuppance rather than pity their pain. There's nothing wrong with protecting ourselves and doing what we can, I just think we can do that without being intolerant. 14 hours ago, Phi for All said: Tolerance isn't a gate, open or closed, or a even a yes or no question. It's a threshold that's different depending on what you're measuring. I have a very low tolerance for discrimination in any form. I have a very high tolerance for the way people choose to look. I found out recently that I have a low tolerance for guests arriving at my parties carrying concealed weapons. My tolerance for barking dogs doing their jobs is pretty high. I don't tolerate drivers tailgating me. My tolerance for the music people choose to listen to is fairly high. You do have a habit of raising excellent points and I largely agree. 14 hours ago, Phi for All said: We tolerate a particular thing until we no longer can, for whatever reasons our ethics or personality dictate. Indeed, and as I've always maintained, we do what we can, but we don't have to step outside our moral code to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted July 31, 2019 Author Share Posted July 31, 2019 On 7/29/2019 at 8:54 PM, StringJunky said: I agree. He's using the word in his OP and one would trivially assume he has an idea in mind what it means. You'd think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 4 hours ago, dimreepr said: You'd think... I will resist derailing the thread. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted August 1, 2019 Author Share Posted August 1, 2019 18 hours ago, StringJunky said: I will resist derailing the thread. Quite right, my apologies (can't handle the shandy ). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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