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Confused about "antisemitism" in the Labour Party

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5 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

Are you trying to define antisemitism?

I've already had one bash at that : 

 

On 8/18/2018 at 2:43 PM, mistermack said:

As far as I'm concerned, antisemitism is restricted to prejudice against Jews for being Jews. And it stops there.

 

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5 minutes ago, mistermack said:

I've already had one bash at that : 

 

So what are you getting at with that post?

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8 hours ago, iNow said:

It seems to me that it’s safe to say that the VAST majority of Palestinians and Israelis are perfectly fine to live harmoniously as peers and to share an approach of community and brotherhood.

Too often, though, a tiny minuscule few in power shape the narrative and own the details the rest of us discuss. The peaks of the pyramid cause the conflict to continue while the base of the pyramid moved on and mentally extinguished the raging fires ages ago.

Both sides have done horrible things, but it’s not the “side” in its entirety that is to blame. 

No. It’s like one dude named Gus and another named Jed that did the things we’re all so consistently and conflictedly wrapped around the wheel about. 

If only we had a choice about which voices we amplified. If only...

Right, nearly 50% of the people in Afghanistan are under 15yrs and the median age of the whole country is just 18yrs of age yet 9/11 is still mentioned regular by Politicians when discussing Afghanistan and we (USA) still hve tens of thousands of troops in Afghanistan. Meanwhile the majority of the the entire population of the Afghanistan wasn't even alive when 9/11 happen. At some point people have to stop living in the past.

If the world can forgive Germany and both the U.S. and Japan can forgive each other I see no reason why Israel and the Palestinians can't as well. 

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Just now, Ten oz said:

If the world can forgive Germany and both the U.S. and Japan can forgive each other I see no reason why Israel and the Palestinians can't as well. 

Hmm...  but will their respective religions and religious leaders allow it?   :-( 

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1 minute ago, Ten oz said:

Right, nearly 50% of the people in Afghanistan are under 15yrs and the median age of the whole country is just 18yrs of age yet 9/11 is still mentioned regular by Politicians when discussing Afghanistan and we (USA) still hve tens of thousands of troops in Afghanistan. Meanwhile the majority of the the entire population of the Afghanistan wasn't even alive when 9/11 happen. At some point people have to stop living in the past.

If the world can forgive Germany and both the U.S. and Japan can forgive each other I see no reason why Israel and the Palestinians can't as well. 

The problem is, it's a big ask, could you forgive your mothers murderer?

2 minutes ago, DrP said:

Hmm...  but will their respective religions and religious leaders allow it?   :-( 

If they're true to their religions then yes.

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10 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

If they're true to their religions then yes.

Do their religious teaching state that they should live in harmony with each other then?  Does the Koran suggest living side by side in peace with Jews? Does the Torah state that the Jews should marry and live in a shared harmony with Arabs?  

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4 minutes ago, DrP said:

Do their religious teaching state that they should live in harmony with each other then?  Does the Koran suggest living side by side in peace with Jews? Does the Torah state that the Jews should marry and live in a shared harmony with Arabs?  

Well they do suggest forgiving is a good idea but let's not stray off topic.

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1 minute ago, dimreepr said:

Well they do suggest forgiving is a good idea but let's not stray off topic.

It is on topic as an extension to the conversation and you are wiggling out of it...   Where in the first 5 chapters of the old testament (The Torah) does it mention that forgiveness is a good 'eye'dea?  I can't really speak for the Koran....  can you say where it talks about forgiveness?  I thought that was mainly a Christian thing.  

I don't think I am anti semitic...  but The Torah isn't Christianity with love and forgiveness....  it's the old testament 'eye for an eye' style philosophy. :-( Conquer your foes with the power of god behind you   -  so is the Koran.   All the while they stick to their 2000 year old out dated religions there will be no peace in the area and you know it.  Not while they stick to the teachings of their books anyway.  

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28 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

The problem is, it's a big ask, could you forgive your mothers murderer?

If my mother had been murdered and her murderer was dead I certainly wouldn't continue on hating the murderers extended family members a decade on. 

40 minutes ago, DrP said:

Hmm...  but will their respective religions and religious leaders allow it?   :-( 

Israel as a nation is fairly secular like most other Western Democratic nations. I don't think thier religion (Jewish/Muslim) alone is the problem. Lots of external forces with their on concepts of history and indentity put pressure on the situation. I think a big step forward in the peace procress would be for Christians to butt out, for example.

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9 minutes ago, DrP said:

It is on topic as an extension to the conversation and you are wiggling out of it...   Where in the first 5 chapters of the old testament (The Torah) does it mention that forgiveness is a good 'eye'dea?  I can't really speak for the Koran....  can you say where it talks about forgiveness?  I thought that was mainly a Christian thing.  

I don't think I am anti semitic...  but The Torah isn't Christianity with love and forgiveness....  it's the old testament 'eye for an eye' style philosophy. :-( Conquer your foes with the power of god behind you   -  so is the Koran.   All the while they stick to their 2000 year old out dated religions there will be no peace in the area and you know it.  Not while they stick to the teachings of their books anyway.  

You should know by now that I don't shy away from a religious topic, besides saying Judaism is all bad does seem antisemitic (not that I'm suggesting you are). 

11 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

If my mother had been murdered and her murderer was dead I certainly wouldn't continue on hating the murderers extended family members a decade on. 

What if your mother's murderer is a state that's very much alive?

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Just now, dimreepr said:

You should know by now that I don't shy away from a religious topic, besides saying Judaism is all bad does seem antisemitic (not that I'm suggesting you are). 

I didn't say it was 'all bad' did I? Can you quote me on that?

I said, or inferred, that it wasn't set up to encourage harmonious Jewish and Arab cohabitation. Nor is the Koran.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, DrP said:

I didn't say it was 'all bad' did I? Can you quote me on that?

I said, or inferred, that it wasn't set up to encourage harmonious Jewish and Arab cohabitation. Nor is the Koran.

But you are conflating what they said then with what we think/know now, not to mention what's lost in translation and mangled interpretation due to politics, so yes it's off topic.

Isreal doesn't quote the OT to justify its actions.

Edited by dimreepr
To add

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

What if your mother's murderer is a state that's very much alive?

Mississippi is a State and it's laws and people killed a lot of Black people in the past. Civil rights movement found a way to move past it. Even with some factions promoting violence. 

Edited by Ten oz

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53 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

The problem is, it's a big ask, could you forgive your mothers murderer?

A more appropriate question is, "Could you forgive the race, nationality, and entire religion of the person who murdered your mother?" The answer is, of course. It's ludicrous to blame them in the first place.

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1 minute ago, iNow said:

A more appropriate question is, "Could you forgive the race, nationality, and entire religion of the person who murdered your mother?" The answer is, of course. It's ludicrous to blame them in the first place.

Boom!

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1 minute ago, iNow said:

A more appropriate question is, "Could you forgive the race, nationality, and entire religion of the person who murdered your mother?" The answer is, of course. It's ludicrous to blame them in the first place.

I agree but that's not my point, it's easy to sit on the hill overlooking the problem and point out who should do what. It's not so easy to be in the thick of the fight and stop to offer the hand of friendship, that's why it takes great people like Nelson...

 

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1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

So what are you getting at with that post?

It was flippant.

3 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

it's easy to sit on the hill overlooking the problem and point out who should do what. It's not so easy to be in the thick of the fight and stop to offer the hand of friendship, that's why it takes great people like Nelson...

Nelson would have lined up his ships and blown them out of the water.

(that was flippant too !)

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9 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I agree but that's not my point, it's easy to sit on the hill overlooking the problem and point out who should do what. It's not so easy to be in the thick of the fight and stop to offer the hand of friendship, that's why it takes great people like Nelson...

 

No, this isn't that. You have been provided very real world examples. Despite slavery & segregation Blacks have broadly forgave Whites and the overwhelming majority of both (Blacks and Whites) live harmoniously together in the U.S.. Likewise the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and we (USA) bomb 2 atomic bombs on them yet today U.S. and Japan are strong allies. Nations and people can forgive and move forward. It has happened throughout history all over the world.  

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35 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

No, this isn't that. You have been provided very real world examples. Despite slavery & segregation Blacks have broadly forgave Whites and the overwhelming majority of both (Blacks and Whites) live harmoniously together in the U.S..

Didn't Martin Luther King Jr have a hand in that? Although harmonious seems a stretch...

37 minutes ago, Ten oz said:

Likewise the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and we (USA) bomb 2 atomic bombs on them yet today U.S. and Japan are strong allies. Nations and people can forgive and move forward. It has happened throughout history all over the world.  

It would seem it's a lot easier with distance and a mutual benefit.

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Posted (edited)

When you add religion, it generally gets very nasty. Which is why establishing a Jewish nation was so fundamentally wrong. 

Two types of Muslims can't even coexist peacefully, and nor could Protestants and Catholics throughout history. Things might have calmed down a bit, now that people are getting less religious. But where religion is strong, so are the tensions.

A little place called Myanmar comes to mind, the British moved in hundreds of thousands of Muslims and now there's a bit of bother. Then the Nazis killed six million Jews, for being Jews. And the Christians slaughtered Muslims to glorify god during the Crusades. 

Peace and understanding might come eventually, when Jews stop being Jews, and Muslims stop being Muslims.

In the meantime, it's better to keep them apart.

Edited by mistermack

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1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Although harmonious seems a stretch...

Ten Oz' mention of "overwhelming majority" seems to have anticipated and addressed this particular criticism. 

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1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

Didn't Martin Luther King Jr have a hand in that? Although harmonious seems a stretch...

Not King alone. King is popluar culturals preffered face of Civil rights because his message was the most passive. It would be difficult for a grad teacher in Nebraska or Idaho to explain the positions of people like Malcom X, Marcus Garvey, Huey Newton, Elijah Muhammad, etc to grade schoolers. Martin Luther King was a great man but the Civil Rights movement did not have a singular Messiah or singular voice. It is just taught that way.

Harmonious for the majority fits in my personal experience. Yes there are still bigots but even in countries with zero diversity people find excuses for hate. In my opinion the overwhelming major of white and blacks in the U.S. get along. People love them some Kendrick Lamar and they love them some Adel. 

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

It would seem it's a lot easier with distance and a mutual benefit.

You don't think there is mutal benefit in Israel and the Palistinians getting along? 

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One  observation that would make it clear that the talk of "antisemitism" in the Labour party is  just a political ploy would be if the people making the assertions didn't do what they are rebuking their opponents for doing.

Well...

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-conservative-party-rulebook-doesnt-mention-antisemitism

https://evolvepolitics.com/the-conservative-party-still-havent-adopted-any-of-the-11-ihra-definition-examples-of-antisemitism-in-their-rulebook/

So, people might wonder how upset the Tories are about  anti Jewish statements, given that their own rules permit them.
That's just as well given the actions of some Tories.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26059862

Maybe the allegation of  "-antisemitism-in-the-labour-party" is a lie.

Edited by John Cuthber

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