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arc

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Everything posted by arc

  1. My wife's share of the bedroom closet as compared to mine.
  2. I'm sure your first reaction will be that I'm bull . . . .ing you. But I'm not! I added Google Analytics to my Weebly hosted Electroplatetectonics.com site about a month ago. This morning I found a "vote for Trump" on one of the pages. Is this from someone in Google or is it some kind of a hack? I know very little about how this computer stuff works, if it wasn't for one of my sons technical help I would be lost when things on my laptop get screwed up. Where do you think this comes from? It's weird that it shows up on the language page but doesn't say which one. There has been one session from Samara, Russia. Could it be some scam from there? How would they get through Google's defenses?
  3. Hello wheel, and welcome. To make this easier to follow let us refer to the positions on the wheel as in terms related to the numbers on the face of a clock. The increase of torque that your machine hopes to utilize through gravity at the 9 O'clock position is theoretically at maximum due to its tangential position to the force of gravity. This assumed momentary gain is unfortunately countered by the simultaneous movement towards the center of the balls at 3 O'clock. The loss in energy in this system, that cancels this assumed gain in torque, is when the balls move inward they also proportionally slow down in relation to the wheels rotation. (relative to rotation) This loss of momentum by way of decreased velocity of a portion of the rotating mass is directly in opposition to your gain in assumed torque. So you end up with a net loss of energy. Children on a swing will shift their center of gravity to utilize this torque you refer to. They are of course using their own (outside) energy to facilitate the gravity's energy to overcome the losses in the system. You would need to start your wheel with outside energy. Friction within the system tips the forces of nature against you and your wheel will slowly come to a stop.
  4. I believe we can resolve this debate with close examination of the examples and scenarios that have been presented so far. Chimpanzees display what could be considered is the most basic interpretation of a tool; a stem used to withdraw termites from a mound. This activity along with other similar displays has not so far lead to a revolution in chimpanzee tool culture despite the chimpanzees having what would be the most important precursor to any tool making endeavor, a reasonably comparable brain to that of our earlier ancestors and two opposable thumbs. Although we don’t know when this termite extraction practice began for chimps, it did not lead to a series of extrapolations of the original idea, but merely the use of any suitable stem being stripped of obstructions. The first tool that the chimps originally utilized was most likely a found item and used as is and then copied through trial and error for generations after. So, despite having what would seem as a good starting platform consisting of a brain of adequate intelligence to ascertain a possible use for a tool, and opposable thumbs to shape and use it, why haven’t they demonstrated what could be considered a measurable awareness of the fact that many of the materials and objects in their environment can be used and modified to their benefit? Does a bird building a nest garner their interest? Can they learn from their environment? Have they discovered what the sharp edge of a fractured stone can do? And then tried it in a multitude of situations? The one very obvious attribute that they are missing is speech. And more importantly; what a speaking culture provides, a learning environment that enables and develops abstract thought processes. A sharp edge stone to a mind that is capable of abstract thought is the beginning of a cultural revolution. What would initiate the early development of the physiology in chimps that would lead to a gradual and meaningful increase in vocalization like that which occurred in early human ancestors? The apes all vocalize to some degree, no doubt like our early human ancestors must have, but at some point the resultant stimulation in cognitive intelligence of this activity in our ancestral groups lead to the greater survival and reproductive success of those involved. This feedback rewarded those that possessed the physiology of improved speech capabilities that then in turn spurred increased cognitive understanding and abstract thought capabilities. Even those within the group that evolution may not have chosen for this trait would have undoubtedly benefited from experiencing the results as a member. As the vocal physiology was passed down and selected by survival and reproduction the feedback cycle would assure this advantage would continue to strengthen though generations of successful reproduction. This is why I believe tool development was not the driving agent for our ancestors’ unprecedented mental development. The chimpanzees’ meager advancements in this matter are rather hard to reconcile. They lack even the most basic level of abstract thought, tools can be found and/or modified to perform a task and this knowledge passed on through demonstration, but without the ability to imagine objects in different contexts and more importantly share that context verbally, the chances of a tool culture developing without speech would appear to be slim. But more importantly how would this tool making and use wire a child’s brain for creative thought? Are these tool utilization moments really numerous enough to provide the needed learning environment to the group’s offspring? We Know now how important stimulating and imaginative environments are for developing children and how much more capacity they have as adults if their environment growing up was filled with stimulating social contact. This is why I believe the social model is so much more able to adequately explain this incredible anomaly that we undoubtedly are. There simply needs to be a feedback mechanism within this social group that promotes the use of abstract thought on an unprecedented level of circular reinforcement.
  5. Bold mine. I believe the social hypothesis is the strongest of the two, in the early education of our own children we concentrate heavily on communication development which leads their demonstration of creativity by a appreciable degree of time. I believe the mental development of our early ancestors was the result of a informational feedback cycle of learning. This all began within a singular cultural group that quickly advanced through language and story telling. I described it several times before in other similar discussions on this forum. The creativity seen by the development of tools is a byproduct of the development and expansion of our early ancestor's brain capacity for abstract thought, an ability developed through imagining stories told within the group. I think the first human language, more than just those single proto words sounded when gesturing while hunting for example, but the first constructs of language began when our very early ancestors became aware of time, the first understanding of the concept of yesterday, today and tomorrow. I have debated whether a past/present/future awareness would have been in place prior or would it have developed in tandem with language as simply a tool they constructed to communicate more clearly. It would seem to be a natural development in language, to refer to for example, what happened on a hunt, and then extend those "stories" out over time. And with these early humans, that knowledge of past/present/future makes way for experiences of regret and hope that could develop into primitive religion and then into philosophy. This to me is possibly the driver of our brain evolution. Those who could communicate and imagine the images in stories and use that information could understand the world around them better and improve their chances to survive. This could be the engine that would progress brain development quickly. I could see it being almost inevitable that once the concept of the past is understandable, a hunter injured for example, would contemplate that traumatic moment and feel the regret of the mistake. He would possibly reexamine the events leading up to the accident searching for a answer to his regret. These experiences would lead to either fear or hope for tomorrow depending on the severity of his wounds and his knowledge of the fate of others with similar injuries. If the injured had been considered one of importance this could be quite traumatic for all those involved. This would likely create fertile grounds for superstition and the need to anticipate the possible dangers lying in wait for them tomorrow. This is an inevitable byproduct of increasing brain size. The increase of imagination that visualizes the stories with increasing complexity would also drive the superstition that would increasingly be included in those stories. Those that could process this flow of information and apply it to survival would likely pass their more advantageous brain and possibly even their cultural "education system" of language and stories on to their offspring. This model of evolution is one that has an internal mechanism of an information feedback creating an accelerated development of brain size in human ancestors. I think language, the concept of past/present/future and the stories that advanced human understanding, developed together through mutual reinforcement, accelerating our ancestors development.
  6. I believe it is inherently tied to the development of language. language required our ancestor's brains to develop the abilities to visualize abstractly, to find new ways to describe what the thinker was trying to communicate. The process has directly improved itself in quality and quantity of information since the first utterance all the way to the present. The process of mankind's development and improvement of language moved continuously towards, and then in conjunction with mathematics, the abstract representations of the number of animals seen over the nearby hill as represented by the scouts upheld fingers would require improvement when numbers exceeded fingers and words lost their preciseness to quantity. Mathematics is and probably will always be the most precise and concentrated form of information man will ever discover/devise.
  7. The author proposes the misguided sexual attraction of a male beetle for large beer bottles as a model of how other, and even more complex organisms perceive reality. ​CONCLUSIONS . . . . ."I suspect that few experts will be persuaded by these arguments to adopt the interface theory of perception. Most will still harbor the long-standing conviction that, although we see reality through small portals, nevertheless what we see is, in general, veridical. To such experts I offer one final claim, and one final challenge. I claim that natural selection drives true perception to swift extinction: Nowhere in evolution, even among the most complex of organisms, will you find that natural selection drives truth to fixation, i.e., so that the predicates of perception (e.g., space, time, shape and color) approximate the predicates of the objective world (whatever they might be). Natural selection rewards fecundity, not factuality, so it shapes interfaces, not telescopes on truth [28] (p. 571). The challenge is clear: Provide a compelling counterexample to this claim." Bold mine it's interesting. The beetle's predicament is almost identical to that of the thynnine wasp. http://www.fs.fed.us/wildflowers/pollinators/Plant_Strategies/mimicry.shtml "The warty hammer orchid of Western Australia produces a chemical scent that is almost identical to the pheromone that the female thynnine wasp releases when she is sexually receptive. The orchid's labellum (lower lip) is also shaped similarly to the body of the female wasp. The male thynnine wasp grasps the imitation female and tries to fly off with her to mate and in the process crashes into the flower structure containing the pollen and the stigma. Pollen from one orchid is carried to another and pollination occurs. The male thynnine wasp's desire to mate as many times as possible lends to this trait of pollinating the warty hammer orchid." Large game hunters commonly use pheromones and the sound of rutting males fighting to fool their prey. Deception is well established within the species. It is also interesting that humans have developed deceptive counter measures; http://www.nytimes.com/1989/09/05/science/face-masks-fool-the-bengal-tigers.html "That finding was a matter of life or death in an experiment being conducted in the Ganges Delta in India, where tigers living under protection in a reserve had been killing about 60 people a year. Arguing that this predator only attacks people from behind, workers in the mangrove forests started wearing face masks on the backs of their heads. Thus far the trick appears to have worked." Then there is the propensity of some human males to attempt to mate with as many females as possible, and what seems to be the counter measure that the larger group established to reduce the likelihood that the resultant offspring would be dependent on the overall group in general. Yes the ultimate counter deception of all; a marriage covenant by oath in front of a deity and the other members of the group.
  8. There must be a measurable build up of anxiety leading up to the events, the news and all, everyone running around getting stuff ready up to the arrival time. Not to mention the whole uncertainty about the exact path the hurricane will travel. Maybe some sort of pre-traumatic stress syndrome. Hang in there moon. You're in our thoughts.
  9. Bold mine. Except for those on the wrong side of a major paradigm change. Scientists are as human as anyone and having your past body of work suddenly viewed from a new and revolutionary perspective that directly diminishes the relevance it had held in the years prior would produce a reactionary response in almost anyone in general. And even more so if your life's work may now appear to have been off the mark and misguided to some degree or your direction of study no longer appears as capable as before. https://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/SCICRANK.HTM Steven Dutch, Natural and Applied Sciences, University of Wisconsin - Green Bay Plate Tectonics - A Case Study "The paranoid tone of pseudoscience occasionally surfaces in the works of orthodox scientists; not, as one might expect, in the works of scientists who are trying to bring about a scientific revolution, but more often than not in the works of scientists who are resisting change. In the late 1960's and early 1970's, for example, as the opinion of most geologists was swinging in favor of continental drift (as it was still called), a few conservative geologists fought a rear-guard action against its acceptance. Interestingly enough, the more the evidence favored drift, so that one could be justified in referring to opposition to drift as pseudoscience, the more striking the parallels became between the writings of the anti-drifters and the tactics we see in other pseudoscientists. There was, for example, the familiar tactic of downgrading findings to the level of "hypothesis" or "speculation". And of course there were charges of ulterior motives and unscientific conduct." "Although the scientific knowledge of these writers is immeasurably greater, the rhetoric is scarcely distinguishable in tone from that of any other pseudoscientists. I was going to graduate school at Columbia University when these papers appeared. The Lamont-Doherty Geological Observatory of Columbia University was one of the research centers most heavily involved in the research that led to the confirmation of continental drift. The reaction of the Lamont scientists to the anti-drift articles was not so much anger as amused, open-mouthed incredulity that any scientist would actually put his name on something like that." Not that I've had any personal experience with this behavior from anyone here, mind you. BTW Steven Dutch's blog is worth the read.
  10. I am rather limited in the incredibly wide range of scientific and engineering knowledge that is required to produce our current level of space faring craft, let alone something that could be thousands of years away in the future. Think of a similar conversational comparison with a passenger on the Mayflower imagining a ship like the Titanic just few hundred years later. Never mind what the original builder of the Mayflower would be able to estimate what the state of the art will be in 1912. We are rather blinded by our own generational cultural biases. The 1930's Buck Rogers was a viable speculation to countless movie goers the same way the 1960's Star Trek seduced my generation. We saw in that original craft the farthest reaches of that era's speculation of future possibilities. And with each additional revamp of the franchise the subtle adjustments kept the concept up to date and fresh in the same way the newest remake of the Corvette does to that automotive line. I would even venture that the most current rendition of the Star Trek Enterprise shares more in technological semblance with the Corvette than that far in the future assemblage of technology that would allow humans to travel between the stars. And it may, and most likely will require, there be as much technological advancement in human physiology as the vessel they will ride in. So much so, they might not resemble us in many ways. Such is the price we will pay to travel to the stars.
  11. Hello studiot, Thanks for your information, that is interesting. I think I've seen that over the years in images but I didn't know the cause. Our area is part of the Pacific temperate rain forest of the Cascade Mt. Range which results in a substantial amount of rain derived erosion of the terrain and the tremendous volumes of biomass that these soils have produced that have combined to fill in the western lowlands. The eastern side of the Cascade Range is substantially higher and dryer than the west side and reveals much more of the basaltic base material that covers so much of this area. I would think there would be images taken over the years, just to the east of the range's crest, that would show evidence of these moving masses of ice. I have only so far found a few such images. I really like this blog BTW, she does some really good posts. https://highway8a.blogspot.com/2009/11/travel-day-three-part-3-crater-lake.html "I followed my geological instincts to this cliff edge, where I found some great glacial striations and grooves on some lava rock (possibly the andesite of Applegate Peak, which has a K-Ar date of 258±8 ka to the south - Bacon, 2008). The grooves point approximately toward the Wineglass - a northeasterly direction."
  12. I have been looking for some images that show glacial flows that results in the sub-straight having similar (mirror) abrasive wear that matches my example. The ones in the image below appear to be twice or more in size than my example, but in looking at dozens of different example images it seems that these grooves can occur at a wide range of scales. Some of these sites are deeply channeled gorge-like areas where the walls and floor are grooved by the ice, rocks and undoubtedly a particle slurry made up of a wide range of particle sizes produced through the glacial processes that work to not only lubricate but help wear down both the moving rocks, termed glacial erratics, and the sub-straight alike. I wonder, and would suppose that these gorged-out areas began from a already existing low area that the dynamics of the ice being compressed into them accelerated the erosional processes. The continually steepening walls would move that slurry to the lowest areas and accelerate the removal of the base material. Even what appear to us as high areas were just low and of little consequence to the much more massive ice flows. I can almost see my little rock left stranded on that precipice (above) when the glacier retreated. Eventually wind and rain tipping it over the edge and it falling into the erratic filled valley below. Maybe that is where that big chipped off spot came from.
  13. When I was about 6 years old my folks bought an old farm house with a corral where the previous owners kept their two horses and two Shetland ponies. They took their horses with them, and with what seemed as a generous gift, gave me and my older sister the ponies. My sister was the industry standard for the mean older sister. Within a few hours my pony had knocked her face down in the mud and poo with a hard nudge of his nose, he then held her there with his right hoof while giving her a hard bite on the left ear. At that moment I thought ponies were the greatest thing I had ever seen!
  14. Thanks for stopping by.
  15. Hello Acme, we haven't talked in quite awhile. I was not referring to the Laurentide Ice Sheet of the last glaciation period but the Cascade glaciation that occurred during the same time period. There is some good accounts of them by Porter et al. Many of these papers unfortunately are now it seems behind paywalls. A nice study by Porter that is available for free is this paper; https://notendur.hi.is/oi/AG-326%202006%20readings/Beringia%20and%20Alaska/A.%20overview/Kaufman_DevQuatSci2004.pdf Quaternary alpine glaciation in Alaska, the Pacific Northwest, Sierra Nevada, and Hawaii Darrell S. Kaufman1, Stephen C. Porter2 and Alan R. Gillespie2 1 Department of Geology, Northern Arizona University, Flagstaff, AZ 86001, USA; Darrell.Kaufman@nau.edu 2 Quaternary Research Center, University of Washington, Seattle, WA 98195, USA; scporter@u.washington.edu, alan@ess.washington.edu "During their greatest Pleistocene advance, alpine glaciers in the Washington Cascade Range and Olympic Mountains terminated as much as 70–80 km from their sources. During the last glaciation, the largest glaciers were only half as long. In the Oregon Cascades, glacier tongues terminated 10–30 km from ice fields that mantled the range crest" And this reference; http://glaciers.research.pdx.edu/glaciers-oregon "During the Pleistocene (~1.8 million years BP - 10,000 years BP), the Oregon Cascades may have been covered by glaciers creating a small ice cap (Porter et al., 1983)" As I mentioned, the materials had been trucked-in from all over the region, they may have been in the range of glacial flows mentioned above but unlikely to have been planed by multiple glacial movements at widely separated time periods. Definitely not at glacial period time scales. The degree of weathering between sides A and B for example is likely just several thousand years or less.
  16. My occupation sometimes involves my working in the location of new construction where the ground surfaces have been altered to a certain degree, thus giving me a wonderful opportunity to look for any interesting rocks that catch my attention. Several weeks ago I spotted one while on a site that had been slowly filled-in for years with trucked in materials from around the region. There had been a bowling center there since the fifties and it was recently demolished with the total removal of the old parking lot pavement. The rock was just lying with its most reveling side exposed at the ground's surface. This little rock contains an amazing amount information about its past travels. First, a little detail about its structure. It has thin bands of gold bearing quartz running its length. It was formed very deep within the earth where super heated water carried the dissolved gold and its other minerals upwards where they collected together as the materials cooled and the quartz crystals formed. The side seen in the image above and below is the one I saw exposed at the ground's surface. It has been shaped into a double, side by side concave surface through the process of being transported by glacial movement over a very hard sub-straight. I have designated the various sides that have certain distinguishing features as A,B,C,D,E and F. If you notice at location C in the image above and below, the surface has been planed very smooth. Referring to the image above; A ,B and C all have planed surfaces. The ridge at G (below) does not appear to be parallel to B but this is an optical effect caused by the quartz banding. The ridge is actually parallel to B so this means they were likely formed during the same time period as the rock was moved by the glacier. Both F and B show weathering after being shaped while A and C are both remarkably smooth with sharper transitional edges as compared to F and B which show worn edges. It appears they are from two different periods of glacial interaction! That seems almost impossible to have been able to occur given the time span between glacial periods. This is more likely the result of glaciation on nearby Mt. Hood (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Hood) that is 80 km to the east where glaciers have advance and retreated since the end of the last glacial period at which time this whole region was covered in Ice. Well worn side B that matches F in weathering (below). Side A (below) that matches C in smoothness and sharp edges. Another interesting feature is this broken chip on side F (below) It appears that as the rock was being moved down the mountain and the double concave surface was being shaped the rock became caught on a fracture in the sub-straight causing the rock to stop and the glacier to continue on moving above it. At some point another rock being carried by the glacier began carving out the top side opposite of F. (below) Eventually the strain was great enough to break that chip off the rock's leading edge. The glacier then at some point retreated and allowed the rock to be weathered by rain, wind and stream flow from the melting glacier. When the glacier advanced again it was once more transported and planed on sides A and C when the rock repositioned. Such a wonderful little rock.
  17. I noticed the same sort of thing back when I was in school. I think it was mostly though that they were never in trouble and I sometimes was. I believe it boils down to discipline at home usually leads to discipline at school. I read a book years ago called The Millionaires Mind, it explained this discipline nicely. These folks, if I recall correctly, were more likely to attended church but in either case the families were very efficient at all levels in their lives. They went to bed early and woke up early 7 days a week. Really expected their kids to spend a scheduled period every night studying. Their families ran like a finely tuned machine. I'm sure the nonreligious successful families do it similarly. But we just didn't notice them as much because they blended in better somehow. I remember one religious guy we went through high school with, he was a 4.0 student. He was tall and handsome like some young executive. He looked bizarre that one day a year walking down the hall, past all the long hair and bell bottoms, wearing his Eagle Scout uniform. His hair was cut above his ears, but very sharp looking. He received an appointment to an academy, I believe it was Annapolis. He died piloting a small plane just a year out of high school somewhere on the east coast, I believe it was in Maryland. Some parents are able to provide this nurturing environment with almost no effort regardless of their income, but sadly that income discrepancy does in many cases work against many student's success.
  18. I feel that in the some of these incidences it is simply that the individuals in question did not know that their Ideas must/will be subjected to what amounts to be a prolonged destructive testing exercise by the forum members. They skipped the introductory threads and are completely blindsided by what appears to them as a wholesale attack. They really don't understand the process of skeptical analysis, and their responses resemble someone who just kicked a hornets nest. Just a lot of running around in circles while screaming and flailing. I wonder if a pop-up warning could be added to new members for when they post in the hard sciences at least.
  19. "Anything in isolation can feel significant" "How can behavior of people during traffic stops, suicidal people wanting to die by cop, and etc be responsible for this overwhelming problem. The trend defies any explanation I have seen. The problem is larger than can be addressed in isolation. In isolation Michael Brown's actions may have XY&Z, Tamire Rice could've should've would've, Dlyan Noble just wanted to die, and etc. Add it all up though and the trend is staggering and defies any explanation that each of the idividual cases can provide. This video is a powerful message about treating violence as a contagious disease. But this is really just clever marketing because violent behavior is a psychological disorder. But the stigma that such terms carry in american society makes it unusable in delivering the message. This is at the core of everything we are discussing here, fear drives people in the most vulnerable communities to arm themselves against the unchecked violence around them (Chicago"s gang murder rate for example). Many of these guns are stolen and further feed the cycle of trauma to the community. Citizens in the surrounding communities feel unsafe and arm themselves. The cycle grows in size as the fear of gun control causes a rush to buy guns and even ammunition "before it's too late". These gun purchases are driven by fear. Almost all of it is irrational. Add to this the stresses of international and domestic terrorism to even further acerbated the irrational levels of fear and it does begin to resemble a mass public mental heath crisis. Every high crime area in the country had its roots institutional racism and feeds the irrational fear of crime and violence to the surrounding region, driving fear, and more importantly, reinforcing racism. How does the police fit into this? 30 years ago most police interactions with the public did not include the public being armed. Now, most cops will come in contact with legally and illegally armed citizens on a daily basis. The fear the police have due to these guns is, although, very rational. This would most likely explain the number of instances in Idaho for example. So, as the video illustrates so well, this cycle begins in those communities that we know, more than any others, have their origins in the historical institutional racism of this country. The resulting violence has spread as irrational fear to the general populace as shown by the mass arming of every community. The increase in police shooting of citizen's correlate to fear that the police have to the armed public in general. If this isn't a public mental heath crisis based on the historical institutional racism then what do you call it?
  20. The brutality of this country's racism has left no marks?
  21. "Anything in isolation can feel significant" "How can behavior of people during traffic stops, suicidal people wanting to die by cop, and etc be responsible for this overwhelming problem. The trend defies any explanation I have seen. The problem is larger than can be addressed in isolation. In isolation Michael Brown's actions may have XY&Z, Tamire Rice could've should've would've, Dlyan Noble just wanted to die, and etc. Add it all up though and the trend is staggering and defies any explanation that each of the idividual cases can provide." Defies explanation until you consider untreated mental illness may be more prevalent in society than in the past.
  22. Sadly, there is technology that prevents vehicles from hitting people, I'm afraid this is how we will cope with such horrors, always playing catch up with technology after the fact.
  23. I just wanted to reiterate my position on this in case anyone may misinterpret my opinions on this subject. I fully acknowledge the roll of law enforcement's official and unofficial involvement in the oppression and even murder in the historical context of racism. But, I believe sincerely that a traffic stop or any other such random and potentially life changing interaction with law enforcement is the wrong time and place to let old or new grievances with the law take away the control you have of the situation. As I related with my own brush with death in Ken's truck, he could have: 1. Informed the officer that there was a toy gun in the glove box. 2. If he had forgotten it was there until he put his hand on it he could have just left it there and proceeded to option 1. 3. If he was going to be so stupid as to take it out, holding it backwards by the barrel would have been preferred rather than the grip like he did that night. Fortunately for both of us his hold on it was low enough on the grip (the bottom half) and pointing up and away from the cop, that it may have prevented tragedy. Either I or ken could have made it more difficult for the cop. What would have happened if we had acted angry or uncooperative when he had first approached us? I could have just put my hand down at my sides or in my coat pockets where he couldn't see them. When I saw ken's gun I could have panicked and tried to flee, the cop could have interpreted that move as hostile, the gun coming out of the glove box in one suspect's hand and the other suspect is trying to get out to ambush from over the rear of the truck, remember he had stepped to the back corner of the cab to be safer. We could have completely screwed ourselves. "Suicide by cop" for dummies! Cops will not tip their hand and ask a suspect who has been reported to have a gun, if he does really have a gun, unless they are so close that they have physical control of him or have taken him down to the ground and want him to tell them where he has it. At that point if he is still fighting with them he, unfortunately, is controlling his own destiny to the discretion of the arresting officers. Those two bailiffs that were just killed by a hand cuffed prisoner makes this rather poignant. So, because of the horrendous misdeeds of the past, we are now in a place in this country where some people are going to oppose the oppression of the system during any interaction with law enforcement. Some of these people are going to also increase by there own actions, irregardless of the present officer's reasons for the contact or their presumed bias, the likely hood that at least two lives will be changed for the worse. Some cops are bad, but most are good. But you can cause your own demise at the hand of either one by not staying calm and being smart about your situation. I once had a concealed carry permit due to a deranged convicted felon that acted, quite convincingly, like he wanted to kill me for giving the authorities a video of him running a stolen bulldozer that he said he didn't have in his possession. But really, I was more afraid at the time that my gun might reveal itself without me knowing. I had more stress worrying about cops pulling me over and going CERT on me before I could inform them of my status then I did about that crazy guy. Though all that was probably because of ken.
  24. The point that both of your arguments miss is that any possible mitigable behavioral risks factors by the general public during police interaction: for example; those who are randomly stopped (tail light out), or reasonably profiled (be on the look out for a red headed bank robber), the general public's behavioral risk factors are subordinate to the officer's actual level of risk (facing off against redheaded armed robbers) or self perceived level's of risk (approaching a car alone with four redheaded young men in a rough area of town at night). Some of these shootings occurred while the officers had perceived a heightened state of risk while the unfortunate subjects assumed quite the opposite. For any member of the general public it is in anyone's best interest to hope for the best but plan for the worst when interacting with any law enforcement personnel. If you were the cop; What would you want people to do? What would make you less likely to react during a perceived higher level of risk? When I was 18 I was out cruising with a friend in his very clean, straight and freshly painted hot rod 1950 Ford pickup. It was at night on the crowded boulevard where a couple of thousand other teenagers were doing the same thing. We were stopped by an unmarked police car, after we pulled into a parking lot the cop, wearing street clothes, carefully approached on the drivers side and flashed his badge while quickly scanning the truck's interior. I had my hands out where he could clearly see them but we were both wearing jackets which attracted his eyes several times as he quickly looked the truck cab over. I could tell he thought we may have stolen the truck! He asked for Ken's driver's license and registration while he shifted to the rear of the driver's window opening where the back corner of the cab offered him some quick cover if things went bad for him. His face and left side of his chest and shoulder were the only thing visible from my position as he kept scanning the cab. Ken handed him his licence and then leaned over and opened his glove box door, I watched his hand go in and then come back out with shiniest 357 magnum pistol you've ever seen! As I was simultaneously pissing and crapping myself I turned to see the cop's face as he was looking up from the I.D. that was in between his thumb and forefinger of his left hand. As fast as a gunslinger the cop's right hand was in his jacket pulling his real 357 magnum out of his shoulder holster. I said real because, as all that excitement was happening, Ken was just sitting back as he held up the gun and announced rather nonchalantly - "This is a toy" Almost simultaneously the cop said: "Are you trying to get your #$%& ass killed!" While I sang backup with "You #$%& dumb ass!! From the cop's perspective the truck was suspiciously nice to belong to just a teenager, so those two guys may have stolen it. He should pull it over and carefully check out the occupants. They may be desperate criminals. While we are thinking; WOW! I hope I don't get a ticket for something. BTW he had no reasons to pull us over, no bad driving or defective lights or anything that would justify the stop.
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