beecee

As do I, but still imho anyway, there must at least be some desire to change. In that respect, the mistreated canine is far easier to retrain. Glad it all worked out for the better.

In Australia, masks are already mandated in many states and now accepted. QANTAS has already announced mandated vaccinations for all its staff, air and ground. And it's pretty certain within the next day or two, our federal government, with state governments support, will be also mandating vaccinations for all frontline workers, including health and teaching. Australia and New Zealand have been a vicitm of their own early successes, and did not obtain or promote sufficiently hard enough, the necessity of vaccination, nor the availability of supply. That thankfully is now changing and vaccinations are proceeding at good rates, such that we hope for 80% total vaccinations by November. We already penalise parents that do not have their children fully immunised with the usual infant and child vaccines, with refusal into kindagartens and certain government support, I hope that hardline approach in time, apply to covid19, and the idiotic anti vaxxers, so called freedom fighters. Freedom fighters? what a bloody joke!!

A "properly trained Pitbull can also make a great family pet, as would any dog, but puzzled as to why you raise that in a thread about justice. My rep was OK being rather small [nuggety] for my age and was simply seen as a good mate to most, until the school bully crossed my path...Oh, and since then, I have also metered out justice to other bullies/criminals on behalf of other vicitms. I may have relayed a case in point on that in the torture thread. I believe I have answered and covered that perspective. It has to do with remorse and regret from the criminal/perpetrator. Sure its your thread, but I was addressing Pertikin. But hey, if you believe terrorists and terrorism should be discussed here, that's up to you, and the mods I suppose. It was just my opinion. I'm not overly patriotic but I believe I live in the best country in the world...football, meat pies, kangaroos and VB and Fosters! 😁 Sure, did I say anything to contradict that? My heart goes out to those poor people, men, women and children in Afghanistan at this time, as I expressed in that thread. They also need more then words and pity. I also try and do [or me and the Mrs try more correctly] what we can for those less fortunate in our own small way...Have you heard of World Vision? In primary school at about 9 years of age, I was given the job of looking after a little crippled boy [both leg in Irons] suffering from Polio, luckily and thankfully, the best looking girl in the class was also given that job along with me. 😊 Of course policy should be extended to all, and it is I believe. Those convicted of crime are not automatically put in prison and the key thrown away...[unless it is for some horrendous crime] They are sometimes given suspended sentences, or on parole, or simply house arrest, or a tracking bracelet. Didn't you read what I said here.... Again, I believe your Pitbull analogy is rather weak and non applicable. Just out of interest I have over my lifetime had a Labrador, German Shepard, and two Rottweilers, one living to 13.5 years, and by far the best breed I have owned. I now possess two black and tan miniature smooth haired Dachsunds. [my parents bred them and they make fantastic bed/feet warmers] I have never once had any problem with any dog I have owned. I was just expressing my opinion. If you and dimreeper believe it is appropriate, it's OK with me. But just as obviously, the mods have the last say, and perhaps as yet not having made any comment on that, might mean that they see it as you do. Both you and I live in a democratic society, and I know being unsatisfied with the actions and sometimes inactions of my Federal government, they will not have my vote at our elections next year. Come to think of it our present Liberal/National country party government has never had my vote.

Agreed, a just and admirable mission after 9/11 Perhaps why they did turn tale and run so readily, was that those training them, never really extracted the possible extreme ideaology sprinkled throughout their ranks. And the possible unspeakable barbaric consequences if they had fought on and been captured. And 100% yes to the second. Yes, another totally valid, and real statement. While things in hindsight may have been undertaken differently, the reprisal was certainly justified, as was finally finding the tyrant and burying him at sea. The big billion dollar question is if the "present Taliban" will be true to their word, or if it is all froth and bubble..will Al Qaeda get a look in...how strict will they adhere to "Sharia law" and how will it be interpreted? Will the many hundreds that remain that have worked with or for the Invasion alliance, be subjected to reprisal? Or forgiven by their new Overlords. Religion again rearing its "sometimes"ugly head, along with extreme political idealogy.

I'll stick to what I said, with regards to compassion, as long as the perpetrator is remorseful. Oh yeah and certainly I have also dished out my own justice, in the playground as a kid against a well known bully [as detailed in the torture thread] and getting my Son when he was about 4 years old to dish out his justice, as opposed to that old christian edict of turning the other cheek, [as also mentioned in the torture thread] and a few other personal cases also. Strangely all worked out for the greater good for both parties in all situations mentioned. In a right just society, I don't need to consider, [at least in any reasonable time frame, that being my lifetime, my Son's lifetime, and his kid's lifetimes] becoming a freedom fighter...commit a crime? perhaps, I don't know...again, did you see the movie "A Time to Kill"? My opinion on that scenario...The Father of the little black girl indeed could not be held responsible for his actions in killing the two redneck incorridgibles that ruimed his little girl's life. Again, whether I would commit a "serious crime" like murder for example, I don't know. But what has that got to do with the necessity for prisons, looking after the vicitms of crime, attempts at rehabilitations, and the udesirable incorridgibles where rehabilitation fails and the only choice is locking them up and throwing away the key. Some words of advice to you and Peterkin....Instead of practising your philosophical, psychological, political correctness with me, try absorbing what I am saying....let me sum it up again.... Prisons are necessary in any society and always will be. There purpose are as follows. You both have agreed with that. Society consists of all types of people with different political persausions, capabilities, and outlooks, including criminally inclined incorridgibles. You both have agreed with that. The purpose of a prison is as follows...[1] Punishment: [ to reduce the likelyhood that they will reoffend, and deter others ] [2] Protection: Of society and the vicitm from the incorridgibles among the criminals. [3] Rehabilitation: Attempting to show the criminal the error of his ways, and attempts to prepare him to re-enter society. Rehabilitation would consist of such things as paroles, suspended sentences, house arrests, tracking devices, and psychiatric and mental assessements. Like I said above.... You are welcome to start a thread on terrorists and your definition of them. In fact one is already operational. I certainly still think it would be off topic. But hey! if a mod deems different, thatn sure, we can discuss them also.

Did you ever see the movie, "A Time to Kill?" I don't know the girl in question, nor do I know any of the other vicitms of violent crime. But I often try and imagine if any of those vicitms were my close family, how I would feel. Sure I'm all for compassion, as I said...as long as the perpetrator is remorsful for what he or she has done. You have misinterpreted what I am saying. I'm all for the impartiality and obligatory scales of justice to weigh up all the evidence either way and justice be done on that score. Sometimes though, as in the 7 year old little girl, and many many more cases, the scales are totally over-balanced to one side...an open and shut case is often the case. That in my humble opinion, is where one must then consider the victim. That has nothing to do with unbalancing the scales of justice, simply taking a humane approach to someone who has had their life totally and more then likely irrepairably destroyed. Do you consider that? Since you have admitted the fact that there are those that are incorridgible, [as in this case] then your answer must be yes. We seem to be going round in circles as I agree with justice for all. Terrorists? I believe that would be off topic in this thread, despite being prevalent for discussion in the current climate. Thanks anyway for the debate, with you and Peterkin, and again I am in agreement with the basic premise both of you are pushing. All I'm saying is that the world is full of people of various political, economical and mental persuasions...some are good, some are bad...some that are bad can be reformed, some cannot.

Damned if they [we] do, and damned if they [we] don't.

Vinaka, that's what I was thinking.

Hi swansont....If I understand the OP problem correctly, both probes are travelling at relativistic speeds towards one another? So I understand that each's own FoR sees time and space differently...each sees the other 's time as slower, correct? Now with the classical supposed "twin paradox" we are generally familair with, the paradox is removed by the travelling twin actions [acceleration/de-acceleration] correct? So he returns to Earth, younger then his stay at home twin. So how does this play out with the case of the OP, with both red and yellow travelling? Does/would the Doppler efect also be brought into play? Sorry if I have complicated the issue any, just a observation that struck me.

That's the part that has me wondering. Perhaps the majority of the Afghan forces knew in the course of time that "withdrawal"was always on the cards and decided to lump in with the winners...Perhaps the facts are that the Taliban were never separated, and could never be separated from what one would class as the general populace...perhaps its because they could not destroy the Taliban and that wise heads among the Taliban, knew it was simply a matter of time, so why not sit back, relax, build up one's forces, rely on the obvious help from Pakistan, and Iran, and of course we all know that Russia and China, would not be too concerned about any difficulties the Americans and Allies were experiencing. Yes sympathy now lies with all those women and girls under a strict Islamic society, plus anyone who has been helpful to the occupying forces...

Because that's what I and generally people in a just society expect. Otherwise, yes you guessed it...lock them up and throw away the key...why I hear you ask? Because then they are a danger to society. Not my rules, the rules of a reasonble just society, and as I said above, if they show no remorse for what they have done, and accept that they deserve punishment, then they for all intents and purposes, are incorridgible...so yes lock em up where they can't do any more harm to society. Stop being so presumptious. I have already expressed my thoughts on torture. But if locking them up and throwing away the key is torture in your eyes, then so be it. No, of course it won't benefit the victim. One can only hope that with governemnts and socieity's help, this little girl can rise above her ordeal, and hope to christ she has not lost the ability to marry and raise a family. Is that right? Thankfully, where I live, the previous answer of mine, will almost certainly be invoked and carried out, rather then ignored and inferences put on the christian edict of turning the other cheek, and the "poor criminal victim." That will be looked on with the disdain it deserves. Be that as it may, thankfully, I don't believe we will ever see any society, where the perpetrator is treated with kid gloves and given more consideration then the victim.

Thank you, I hope so as I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression.

So there are more crimes, criminals, incorridgables out there, then what is reported. Whether there is or not is not the question,but certainly a sad state of affairs. Again, we seem to be in agreement, difference being, my sympathy is more for the vicitm then the perpetrator, irrespective of his mental condition and/or upbringing. Because that was one that happened in my own city, and not that far from my own backyard. And really there is no other civilised perspective then to feel sympathy for all such crimes, all round the world. Stop reading something into the case that I used as representation of all. Perhaps that's the problem...you havn't. Objectively certainly, but also sympathetic and outrage at human despots that can undertake such actions. Again, our system aint perfect, and much reform has been undertaken, both concerning the victim, and criminal reform. I recognise both and have given examples on both sides, including personal ones where I did not do the "christian thingy" and turn the other cheek. As could I. And by extenstion, am against the death penalty, despite sometimes "spur of the moments" feelings of this arsehole aint worth keeping in prison. This is the issue, we all seem to agree there are low life despotic arseholes in this otherwise big wide wonderful world! We have to deal with them, after first total consideration for the vicitm.

Newspaper headlines, while certainly to some extent based on sensationalism, also report acts of crime within our community, along with the results of the justice system within that community. Not withstanding the extreme sensationalistic bullshit tabloids that abound, newspapers do a necessary job. The Internet as a comparison, also does a incredible job in making available information, data, even statistic charts on just about anything you wish, but also as we all know, it is sprinkled with much "Trump like misinformation and even lies" Here is an account of vicitms rights and justice... https://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/victimsofcrimeandabuseofpower.aspx Here is a "Victim's Rights Charter" https://www.victimsservices.justice.nsw.gov.au/Pages/vss/vs_victims/VS_victimsrightscharter2.aspx Here's another from the United Nations on the question of criminal rights over Victim's rights.......https://www.unodc.org/pdf/newsletter_2000-03-31_1_page007.pdf Rights of victims The international community agreed in the 1985 United Nations Victim’s Declaration on the following rights for victims: ❏ The right to be treated with respect and recognition; ❏ The right to be referred to adequate support services; ❏ The right to receive information about the progress of the case; ❏ The right to be present and give input to the decision-making; ❏ The right to counsel; ❏ The right to protection of physical safety and privacy; and, ❏ The right of compensation, from both the offender and the state. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Let's all hope that the little girl in the case I highlighted, can rise above her ordeal, and get the probably life long help she will likely need. I havn't any information on any further harm that has been done to this child...will she be able to bear children is one, but if that right has in any way been destroyed by the ordeal she was subjected to, how would, how should we compensate her for that? It's alright to say you aint concerned about feelings, etc, but of course such a hard unsympathetic line of thought can also be seen as inhuman and brutal in the extreme. Sadly, while being a specific account, there are hundreds and probably likely thousands of other examples out there. How does justice compensate for the probable outcomes of the little girl in the recent account I gave? Victims rights, and the possible life long pain and suffering that they must endure in some situations, is what should be paramount. How can that be compensated for? How can justice fully serve the victim in this case?

No argument from me on any point, he was an exceptopnal man. Then again we are in agreement, as that is what I have been saying from day one. I listed that before...the goals of prison are three fold...rehabilitation, punishment, and protecting society. To deserve forgiveness, one must first be remorseful of what they have done and accept that they deserve punishment. Still in my very humble opinion, the vicitm of serious crime, particularly on children, [as per the case I recently gave] has priority.

Our current PM, the king of spin, is one of them.

Yes, certainly an emotional response, and the same emotional response taken by virtually all of Sydney. Think of this little 7 year old and how she now confronts the rest of her life after such a harrowing, despicable, most violent 40 minutes of her life, that has now been likely totally ruined by this depraved, drug fueled maniac, that you are suggesting is also a victim and to be pitied. Yes an entirely emotional response, as per any worthwhile human being. I hope that it will not be too much for her, and that she can one day rise above it, marry and have a family of her own. I don't know what sort of childhood or life that this depraved maniac had, but what I do know is that there are plenty of others, that have probably had similar or worse upbringings and bad situations in their lives, and they have not had the need or urge to stoop to such depravity...most are probably normal everyday citizens...some probably have rose to positions of great respect. It's sad and regretful, that society in general, still need prisons to isolate away these sad people, and it's sad and regretful, that such incorridgable people exist at all. Sure undertake reform, I have already expressed my affirmative feelings re that scenario, give first, even second and third timers another chance [depending on the situation] and hope that such reasonable attempts at rehabilitation works. It does in many situations, but it also fails in others, and that simply means we must resort to the sad and regretful situation of prisons. I believe I have expressed my feelings clearly, reasonably and adequately. Please do not read into those feelings something which is not. I have compassion for those that deserve compassion...I respect those that deserve respect, and I am all for rehabilitation in most situations.

At last as cases balloon in Sydney, Police, military personel, and other authorities have been given immense power to curb these anti-vaxxers and other anti-science morons, with quadruple increases in fines and jail. I hope you are wrong though with the unlikelyhood of herd immunity.

Mandela did not live in a society that could in any stretch of the imagination, be seen as just and moral. But hey, don't let me stop you, if you believe whatever it is that you are after, and if you can show it serves both the criminal, the vicitm, and society in general, better then what we currently have, then go for it. You will certainly have mine and societies support. I have given a few cases that show what a vicitm looks like, in this and the "torture" thread. I'll give one of those again. Here........ https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-12/anthony-sampieri-sentenced-for-dance-studio-child-rape/11955590 extracts: A Sydney man who bound, choked and then filmed himself raping a seven-year-old girl in the bathroom of a dance studio in Kogarah, in southern Sydney, will die in jail. Judge Paul Conlon sentenced Anthony Sampieri, 56, to life in prison for the brutal attack and sexual assault of the primary school girl in November, 2018. In sentencing, the judge said the rape was "marked by a complete lack of empathy" and described it as "every parent's worst nightmare". Sampieri, who was asked by the judge to stand for his sentencing, was told his crimes were "so grave" they warranted the maximum penalty. The 56-year-old pleaded guilty to 10 charges related to the rape, including three counts of having sexual intercourse with a child and seven charges related to sexually explicit and harassing phone calls he made to women in the weeks before the attack. In November 2018, he was out on parole and high on ice when he wandered into the Kogarah dance studio and grabbed the young girl. He punched her in the face, threatened her with a knife, tied a cord around her neck and then raped her in the men's toilet cubicle for 40 minutes. A court heard Sampieri filmed at least four-and-a-half minutes of the attack on a mobile phone. Nick Gilio, a diesel mechanic and father of another child at the studio, was stabbed in the stomach and neck during the scuffle and said he was left traumatised by the ordeal. Outside court, he said it was an "honour to have ... freed [the victim] from the hands of evil." In court, Acting Judge Conlon praised Mr Gilio for his efforts to save the girl while injured. "To you sir, I would say this: the victim, her family, everyone at the dance school and indeed the whole community are indebted to you for the courage you displayed in the face of a person wielding a knife and in successfully subduing and detaining the offender." KEY POINTS: Anthony Sampieri sexually assaulted the young girl for 40 minutes He slashed people who tried to save the girl in 2018 with a knife He was on parole at the time of his attack ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: There are two victims in that sad account....the 7 year old little girl who most likely will be scarred for life, and the hero who tried to help her and was stabbed.

Not at all...I let our courts and justice system decide who is guilty and who isn't, and just as obviously, one that offends, reoffends and offends again, and thumbs his or her nose at authority and society, brands him or herself as incorrigible. I've also mentioned about ankle bracelets and monitoring, and while it serves a purpose, still some deserve prison, specifically where violence is involved. Yes, you are correct, I believe, as do the vast majority of western society, that consideration be first given to the victim, and as also mentioned, particularly in sexual assaults and rapes, rather then going through the harrowing process of some enthusiastic prosecutor. That though does not mean that a balanced decision based on the evidence will not be forthcoming for the accused.

An error on my part, actually in the highlighted part of the above...I had something else in mind. The stolen generation, refers to any indigenous child that was forceably removed from his family and tribe, to foster homes and institutions for supposedly better lifestyles and assimilation. A movie fairly accurately portraying this policy was "Rabbit Proof Fence" about three such little girls who escaped from an institution and trudged 2400kms, following a fence line installed to keep rabbits out of planations etc, back to their home.

Perhaps explorers [with good intentions] that saw the inhabitants of the lands they explored as savage and ignorant, and "deserved" of conquest via change to modern European society? Australia's ingress of European migrants, albeit mainly convicts, sadly saw the virtual extinction of indigenous society, most notably in Tasmania. Even as late as the 1950's and 60's children born to indigenous women, with European Fathers, were taken away from their tribes [supposedly for their own good] and put in religious institutions and foster homes. These were/are know as the "Stolen Generation" and is a reason for great uneasiness between indigenous settlements and white Australia. Finally when the Labor party won elections in 2007 Kevin Rudd became Prime Minister, and offered a long sort after apology in Parliment to indigenous Australia and the Stolen generation and other wrongs that were done. Later exploration and European settlement of the South Pacific Islands, saw a different approach with religious missionaries trying to convert the locals. A missionary in the late 1800's on the main Fijian Island of Viti Levu, was making good progress with converting the Fijians from a remote village in the highlands, when being ignorant of local customs [one being it is tabu to touch a chief on the top of his head] He was subsequently eaten and his remains [the soles of his shoes] can be found in a Museum in Suva. Also on the North side of Viti Levu near Rakiraki is a monument to a Fijian chief called Ratu Udre Udre and a world record attributed to him. There are 999 special stones that decorate his monument, being a stone for every person he had eaten.That is apparently a record. Fijians today, while being highly religious, are quite open about their cannibilisitc past.

Then we are in agreement. Prison for those that show they are incorridgible. In Australia, we have a system for first timers and crimes that are commited under duress, of suspended sentences. A person may be given a 2 year suspended sentence for robbery say. As long as he doesn't reoffend or break the law in that 2 years, then the sentence is dismissed.....then we have community correction orders, and good behaviour bonds. Sex offenders are monitored with ankle bracelets...we also have compulsory registration of sex offenders for the good of the community... domestic violence crimes can have the perpetrator banned from being withing a certain distance from the victim. The justice system it seems, has undergone change. It's not unreasonable, in fact its a nice approach, but there are reasons it won't prevail.

Sure it would...It would be great to eliminate all serious crime. As I already said, I'm all for giving young wayward boys/girls a second chance, even a third chance...I said that here.... Put yourself in a situation where you or your family was a victim of these handful of monsters. You have it wrong. I'm as disappointed as you that such a system as "your approach" will not prevail. And it won't prevail because of exactly what you yourself said.... No, we simply need to find a way [if we eliminate prison] to keep the incorrigible violent criminals from doing more harm and violence. Or as Swansont said here,

Could be. The thing to keep in mind is that if anti matter had survived over normal matter, we would be calling anti matter, matter, and matter, anti matter. 😉