beecee

Wouldn't know the mathematics involved but would guess it has something to do with the amount of sunlight falling on the Moon, the angle involving the Sun, and the albedo of the Moon. From memory, the albedo of the Moon is 12, meaning it reflects 12% of the sunlight falling on it. Hope that might help somewhat.

Yeah good point re the PPE and masks and stuff. Where I am they are starting to crack down hard on careless people discarding their masks willy nilly anywhere, as they should.

iNow has answered that...I'll just add, it's a great drop!! I love my retirement and am thankful I am able to still do most things, including a bit of exercise on the morning...Mrs sometimes get's a bit bored...then I lock myself in my man cave with my bar fridge topped up with V.B and keep out of her way. 😜 Only problem I have is when the Son pops over with a carton of some "new age" Japanese lager, real crap stuff!...a standing joke at my place. The only other problem is/was before lockdown, she would bring her Fijian choir over for practise every couple of months or so. I would adjourn to my man cave, and only come back when they had finished and the men folk had started drinking yaqona [kava] which I would join in with. 😅

Oi!!! I never said I was a conscientious worker or ever really was....just the Mrs!! 😉 I prefer my football, my meat pies and a VB or two or three!!

Is this covid 19 virus helping our environment in anyway? Certainly, countries in lockdown are having less cars on the road, as people are working from home...but is this having the effect of more heating and/or cooling in the home? My own state has fast-tracked building projects, such as a much needed second Airport. Is/will this fast-tracking lead to some disregard for certain protection and emission policies? Will we need to wait a couple of years to gauge any overall effect?

Not sure its the same thing. Hitler and the Nazi movement was driven by hate, extreme Nationalism, and extreme propaganda taught as fact in their schools. What drives the conspiracy pushers and anti vaxxers, seems in the first to be more of a rebellion against society, and taking the opposite or conspiracy tact just for the sake of it, and taken to such a degree, that they end up believing their nonsensical approach themselves. Both of course see violence as a part of their political agenda, as being the only means [in their minds] of pushing their systems onto society in general. On second thought, there does appear to be a similarity.

Yes, my Mrs! Although now officially retired as I am, is constantly on the move, doing whatever she has any need to do...constantly sweeping, dusting, ironing, washing, cooking, sometimes unecessarily so. When she was working at her job as a Nurse in the sterilisation section of a hospital, she would be bringing home new operational procedures, reading up on them and putting them into practise to the best of her ability.

I was speaking of the Pit Bull, not any incorrigible evil criminal element. As far as mental illness is concerned, my pity would be with the poor parents in the case of the little girl that was tied up, raped and tortured to an extreme degree, and their mental torture and anguish...just as that which was portrayed in the movie I mentioned, "A Time to Kill" by the Father of that little black girl. Was Hitler mentally ill? Probably. Does that mean I give him equal consideration [if he had not cowardly killed himself] as the 6 million Jews, and countless other deaths and trauma, he put the world through? I don't think so. None of that by the way, eliminates the fact that some people are simply evil and that prisons need to exist. Bingo! and thankfully, will remain so simply out of necessity. Yes, near exactly what I have said throughout this thread, and which has simply been ignored in favour of pushing some unachievable extreme political position, imo. I have thought about what I would do in a similar situation. While hopefully I would let justice take its course, [living in a reasonable westernised society that for all its faults, still recognises justice] no one can say for sure. I raised a movie called "A Time to Kill" Mathew McCaunaghy and Sandra Bullock, that portrayed a near exact copy of the "real life" scenario I raised when a low life criminal, on parole tied up, tortured and raped a little 7 year old girl. The Father of the little girl, shot and killed the two redneck evil perpetrators in that movie.

I have never said anything about not considring the criminal...It is only one aspect of the reasons for a justice system, [1]punishment [2] Protection of the vicitm and society and [3] Rehabilitation. Do you have any statisitcs that support that all criminals are poor and otherwise decent people? Or any statisitcal support that every criminal is damaged by society and/or the system? That's a rather strange position to take. How many times are you just completely going to overlook the fact that people that commit minor crimes, or even repeat offenders of minor crimes, are considered...house arrest, parole, suspended sentences, tracking bracelets etc etc. Why do you ignore [then later agree] the fact that all I'm saying is that the serious, violent, incorridigible criminal, that thumbs his nose at a reasonable westernised society and its justice system, be locked away for the good of that society. The victim, in many cases remains traumatised, possible physically damged for life, should be, and thankfully is in our reasonable society given all the help, that can be given, ahead of any consideration for the perpetrator. Why would anyone talk of giving the same consideration to the perpetrator of that crime, and particularly some low life animal already on parole, and that even after being discovered "in the act", then viciously turned on the everyday heroes that attempted to help this little girl by stabbing one and lunging violently at the other? Are you really serious? He in reality is lucky we are part of a society that does give him some consideration, and not stoop to torturing him in the same way he tortured the little girl. That applies to all violent, evil incorrigible criminals.

What drives these people? Is it their ignorance of science and the scientific method? Is it the feeling that they are somehow open to some truth, that is hidden from us normal folk? Does that belief in conspiracies make them feel powerful and knowledgable? Is this why in many circumstances, [mainly being in the minority] that they see the need for violence? How much of a role does religion play with these conspiracy pushers? I forgot to mention, a bloke in one of the Sydney/Melbourne marches [forget which] had on a Donald Trump hat! Finally, who are more likely to accept/believe or fall for conspiracy nonsense...those on the extreme right? on the extreme left? Please don't get me wrong, I'm not for one minute suggesting that we should uncritically accept things that politicians say...far far from it!! I'm saying that we still want them [politicians] to be discerning/thoughtful and considerate of all, but that all elected leaders be held accountable.

I believe it does. You knew exactly what my stance was in regards to the status quo, and you agreed...we have incorridgibles, so we need prisons. In essence our disagreement seems to be based on what sympathetic feelings you think we need to feel for the perpetrator. That in my opinion is part and parcel of any possible rehabilitation process for the criminal. My sympathies lay first and foremost with the vicitm and society in general. Thankfully, in a western democratic system, the latter prevails and I don't see that changing, nor should it.

I have edited the last post after your reply...... Again in summing, justice is about [1] punishment [2] Protection of society and [3] Rehabilitation. Some can't be rehabilitated and/or don't want to be. They are the incorridgibles and the ones that we have prisons for. Again as I mentioned to Peterkin, perhaps less time pushing a political position, and more time in absorbing exactly what I am saying, including the already many accepted rehabilitation methods in vogue already, for the petty criminal and first, or yes, even the second timer. [and that I have listed and that strangely have gone without comment] The ones highlighted above? You guessed it, prison and throw away the key.

Which you said in reply to this...... "Yes, certainly an emotional response, and the same emotional response taken by virtually all of Sydney. Think of this little 7 year old and how she now confronts the rest of her life after such a harrowing, despicable, most violent 40 minutes of her life, that has now been likely totally ruined by this depraved, drug fueled maniac, that you are suggesting is also a victim and to be pitied. Yes an entirely emotional response, as per any worthwhile human being."

Yes some people certainly, but some people also partake in any scenario you can think of no matter how obnoxious. That's my main point. We certainly need a planet to live on and our Indigenous folk could teach us a thing or two about that.

Had to have a good laugh at the "attempted protest march" in Sydney yesterday...all roads in were blocked and only a couple of hundred made it. One young sheila was carrying a sign with "SAY NO TO VACCINATION PASSPORTS!" sprawled on a piece of cardboard. These will probably be our next step when the current lockdown ends. Only those with vaccination passports will be allowed to travel inter-state/over-seas, and allowed into clubs, pubs and bars. Another young one was arrested for foul language and started shouting as she was lead away...."It's all a hoax, there is no virus!!" 🤕 Sad, more then anything else, that anyone can be so lead by the nose to accept such conspiracy nonsense. Sadly these gatherings in Sydney are thought to be inspired and promoted by over seas concerns.

Win? Is that what you believe? I suggest that this reflects on what I said about political motivation. There is no win because there is no argument/debate as we have all [again] agreed prisons are necessary and that incorrigible evil people do exist. Irrespective of the rest of that rhetoric, you are essentially [1] agreeing with the common sense approach, that there are unreachable/incorridgible/irredeemable people in our society, and [2] that for them we need prisons.

My position and the evidence I have presented along with the reality of the situation is what society expects and accepts. On that I make no further "back and forth comments" and going round in circles, other then again to say, your position seems more reflective on what you don't say then on what you say. Plus my position on this and the torture subject is not politically motivated, but what I see as the position of a normal westernised progressive society. The TALIBAN of course is well know for their violent, cruel, sexist and savage justice system. Have they changed? Time will tell, but my guess is a big fat uncomprimising NO. And I hope to christ that I am bloody totally wrong on that.

One aspect of rehabilitation for relatively minor offences and offenders is probably education. While this in most probability is already undertaken in many prison systems, perhaps more importance could be put in that direction... https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/2331186X.2019.1628408 Abstract Introduction: Rehabilitation through formal education has been a long-term priority in the Norwegian criminal service. The rehabilitative effect of education is meant to result in employment and thereby ensure a successful return to society. Furthermore, education is considered as one of the most important ways to master life after ending incarceration and is an important crime prevention measure. In Norway, formal education in prison includes primary and secondary school, work qualifying courses, vocational training, and tertiary studies. Transformative learning theory argues for learning that leads to transformation and change in the learner. Method: Through Interviews with former prisoners and the bureaucrats who work closely with them, we have studied how prison formal education has affected ex-prisoners after release. Results and conclusion: The study has demonstrated that education in prison has contributed to social benefits, self-determination, and accountability by enabling the ex-prisoners to improve their mastery and self-esteem. These benefits transformation and change in the learner that have opened new doors. The study shows that formal learning can be something else or something more than the acquisition of pure knowledge or skills. More research on rehabilitation potential in different learning contexts is needed in order to improve sustainable trajectories into the society. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: But again, there will be some that will resist all attempts at rehabilitation... Here is another article...... https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10509674.2017.1359223 ABSTRACT Recent attention has been paid to the role of a positive outlook in early stages of the desistance process. The aim of this article is to examine prisoners’ own expectations regarding future offending before they are released, and why these expectations come true or not after their release from prison. Longitudinal data were used from in-depth interviews with 24 prisoners who were interviewed at the end of their sentence and three months after release about their future outlook on criminal activities, social capital and agency factors, and current criminal activities. Findings suggest a strong connection between criminal and non-criminal expectations and post-release criminal behavior. extract: On the other hand, while the majority of the samples across all five studies reported to have a positive prerelease future expectation (desire to quit crime or made a decision to desist), most of the sample members were rearrested, reconvicted, or reimprisoned again at the follow up. For example, Shapland and Bottoms (2011) followed a group of 113 young adult male prisoners (ages 19–22) and at the time of the first interview 56% said they decided to quit crime in the near future and another 37% wanted to quit but did not know if they were able to. Nonetheless, after three years, 90 of the 113 young men (79.6%) were reconvicted. From the interviews, 19 of the 24 prisoners had clear expectations of their future criminal or non-criminal behavior. After release, 15 of the 19 men (79%) lived up to their own expectations. As Figure 1 shows, nine out of eleven men who expected not be criminally active post prison, said they had been refraining from crime in the three months after release. Similarly, six out of eight men who had a criminal expectation when interviewed in prison were indeed engaged in crime after release. Not everyone’s postrelease behavior was in line with their prerelease expectations. Two men who expected to refrain from crime after prison, were in fact imprisoned again three months postrelease so they failed to live up to their own expectations. Also, two other men expected to be criminally active but it turned out that they did not commit crimes. In addition, some men did not have clear expectations when interviewed in prison. Four of them did not commit crime(s) after release and one of them did. Next we discuss each these groups in more depth, and also examine what explanations they themselves mentioned for (not) living up to their own expectations ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Unexpected results, albeit from small samples, still it shows that all the statisitcs, articles biased for or against, do not invalidate the concept and reality that some human beings are just evil, and while that number [unknown but hopefully very small] is likely small, it means one thing. They need to be isolated from society. That's what prisons in all their shapes and forms are for. Here is another...... https://www.sydneycriminallawyers.com.au/blog/punishment-vs-rehabilitation-in-the-criminal-justice-system/ Punishment vs Rehabilitation in the Criminal Justice System: John has had a busy week fishing, looking after horses, and pruning his fresh crop of vegetables, so he’s quite pleased to retire to his room alone, and watch some television before bed. Without context you’d assume John was an ordinary citizen. But in fact, he is an inmate at the Bastoy gaol in Norway – the “world’s nicest prison”, as it’s commonly referred to. Prison life in the Nordic region is a marked contrast from that of countries like the USA and Australia, where a “tough on crime” mantra prevails. Bastoy inmates are given private rooms and a weekly allowance of around $90 which they can use to buy their own groceries from the supermarket. Though controversial, the rates of reoffending in Nordic nations are far lower than those of their punitive counterparts. According to ABS statistics 221 per 100,000 people in Australia are behind bars on any given day and 45.6% of these will return to prison within two years of release. This compares with just 75 people per 100,000 in Norway and a recidivism rate of just 20%. These statistics do beg the question, why don’t other countries follow suit? Indeed, Australia has gradually take steps towards a more rehabilitative model of criminal justice over time. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: The final article agrees that countries like Australia, are still approaching the scenario of a more rehabilitive approach. [something I have said many times that I agree with] but at the same time, even with such worthwhile attempts as per this Norwegian system, they still have a recidivism rate of 20%...lower then ours, but still significant, and why again prisons will always be needed. One can only hope for less politically motivated rhetoric and more discussions on the facts and opinions I have presented.

Yes you have asked questions and inferred/expressed/dreamed of impossible situations. Also noteworthy of questions you havn/t asked. I have also raised an article with statisitcs which you quickly dismissed as bias. On the extreme rhetoric, I'll leave that for others. Agreed in general, but it will not be improved by pushing for the establishment of a society without prison for the incorridgibles, without care and compassion for the victim and society in general, well before any bleeding heart approach for the criminal. That will not happen. Sure! we all have agreed that in any society realistically speaking of course, that there are evil bastards and incorridgible criminals, and that we need prison for them. Please don't ask me to reproduce those agreements. And yes, I have also agreed that some are brutalized within the prison system, for relatively minor offences, and have also shown progress with repsect to that, with attempts to rehabilitate those minor offenders, with home detention, tracking devices, early parole, suspended sentences and more. Did you miss that list? And I have expressed my agreement with that approach and have listed many alternatives. But guess what? WE still will have those that will thumb their noses at any attempts to rehabilitate, and the law/s in general...we call them the incorridgibles. Interesting happenings in Sydney and Melbourne again yesterday, with a much smaller number of redneck conspiracy ridden anti vaxxers, trying to push their extraordinary anti science position onto the rest of us. The police handled it admirably in all situations, metered out appropriate and necessary force, made many arrests and gave each $3000 fines. Let's all hope the courts uphold and support the work of those frontline police that risked there own lifes and health, in continuing metering out the required justice. Most thankfully have been refused bail. Another example of justice being done. The concept of justice in a reasonable modern society, is said to be the first virtue of social institutions, and the laws enacted, are enacted by whoever we chose to enact those same reasonable justified laws for our society. If we don't like them, we then get the opportunity to kick them out. We already have a concept of justice. And yes, all and continued attempts should and are being undertaken to improve that system, in principle and anything else. That doesn't though detract from the fact as you and dimreeper have agreed to, that prisons are a necessary evil and are needed to separate those from society, that are a danger to society. I'm sure you'll agree that our western justice system, is far more fairer and applicable then that system administered by the Taliban. Of course it does! Or at least a reasonable facsimile thereof. You have already agreed that they are need to protect society from those that would harm it.

For the umpteenth time, no society is perfect. Nice video that again absolutely agrees that there are people, evil bastards in society, that need to be separated, just as you and Peterkin have agreed. And of course me. Not sure what your Australian Aboriginal link proves, I have spoken and expressed by revultion on what the arrival of European man did to Aboriginal culture and society, including the extinction of some. That also happened in the Americas, and Hawaii with the advent of new diseases. but generally speaking relationships between Idigenous and white Australia, has improved as I believe I mentioned in the torture thread. That was with a long time coming apology by a former PM named Kevin Rudd. I also have many Aboriginal friends and am fairly well up on their old culture, and most, not all, but most, are reasonably satisified with the progress that has been made. Things are not perfect, but genuine improvement and progress is being made. None of that diminishes the need for prisons and the fact that incorridgibles exist even in their society.

Perhaps, but useful in balancing the extreme rhetoric from the other end of the political spectrum.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237519657_The_Social_Benefits_of_Confining_Habitual_Criminals The Social Benefits of Confining Habitual Criminals: The short history of American criminal justice policy can be compared to a series of mood swings based largely upon the crime rate and to a lesser extent on the political and cultural fashion of the time. The cyclical nature of rising and dropping crime rates appears to correspond to the level of public and political resolve to aggressively capture and incapacitate criminal offenders. In periods when crime rates and public concern about crime have been relatively low, the premium on aggressive law enforcement appears to diminish, while programs attempting to socialize rather than punish offenders enjoy popularity in political and academic circles. Later, as crime rates and public concern about crime increase, such increases are accompanied by political pressure for a return to aggressive law enforcement and the incapacitation of criminals. The simple truth is that imprisonment works. Locking up more criminals for longer periods reduces the level of crime. The benefits of doing so far offset the costs. extracts: "In the early 1990s several states began to adopt sentence increases for habitual criminals. Washington state’s adoption of Initiative 593 in November of 1993, which mandated life in prison without parole upon conviction of a third violent felony, set a standard duplicated in some form by several other states. California’s “Three Strikes and You’re Out” law (Three Strikes) modified this approach by providing increased sentences for all repeat felons and a top term of 25 years to life for those convicted of any felony who had two prior convictions for violent or serious felonies.16 While California’s earlier sentencing and procedural reforms corresponded with a 10 percent reduction in the crime rate between 1991 and 1994, after adoption of the Three Strikes in 1994 the crime rate plummeted over 21 percent during the next 3 years". COMMON SENSE AND EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE: COMMON SENSE AND EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE The idea that increased incarceration of criminals will reduce the rate of crime has two bases in common sense. First, incentives matter. When the incentives to engage in or refrain from a particular behavior change, the number of people who choose to engage in that behavior changes. This principle is the basis of much of behavioral psychology and all of economics. In criminology, this effect is called deterrence. Second, the crime rate is determined by the number of criminals not by the availability of victims, and removing a criminal from the street to prison prevents him from committing crimes against the general public. Reducing crime by direct restraint is called incapacitation. The anti-incarceration hypothesis is so strongly contrary to basic principles that it would take powerful empirical evidence to support it. In fact, there is substantial empirical reason to believe that imprisonment works. much more at link..........

It is. We all experience justice, including the criminals and misfits when they are locked up. I think you know what I mean. Incorridgibles will occur in any society, but when extremes of political agendas are present, [including of course that wish you seem to be pushing] they will more then likely take advantage of such a softly, softly approach, and cause more harm to the needs of the many. Perhaps a straight answer to a straight question may short circuit this continuing merry-go-round. Do you accept that the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few, or the one? Yes or no would suffice, but I can also dream. 😉

You and I live are lucky enough to live in a democratic society with voting rights at elections. Otherwise, yes the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few, or the one, is a useful and valid concept to live by in any society. The unreachable, horrendous and depraved acts that do occur in all society, occur I suggest at a greater rate then what you pretend they occur at, plus of course, as you have agreed, the only means then available to society is locking them up and throwing away the key. But we are going around in circles again. Whatever the products of society are, the fact remains that we have misfits in any society...whose fault is that? I don't know, but what I do know is that even in some imaginary santisied society that you imagine, these misfits would most certainly still exist and consequently, the need for prisons etc, which you again have agreed to. Again we are in that circular argument I see. And most of us probably straddle the dividing fence. 😊 But again, you seem to have missed the point, It's the extremes of the 'them are bad' we are concerned with, just as the extremes of political agendas be it left or right, are the breeding grounds for the incorridgibles, and as bad as one another.

The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few...or the one.