dimreepr

Not if you want to be logical. Fuzzy logic, is just a third choice...

I base my assertions on the trouble I had talking to Bill, a very distinguished dolphin. He suddenly disappeared, leaving a garbled message... Something about fish???

You can't assume intelligence is a commonality, as you pointed out, an octopus has a very different intelligence to us; even assuming an equal level of advancement doesn't mean we can assume an equal level of technology. IOW stop assuming you know what an alien visitor would look like; "It is a silly thing"...

Yes I do, why are you assuming something related to hominids? Just because it has an octopus ancestor, why assume it can't become more advanced than us and if it communicates via it's skin or by touch, how could you tell a threat from a welcome? Just being cock sure about your assertions doesn't make it fact, how can you even guess that you're right about something you can't possibly know?

You/they are assuming a certain amount of commonality for a basic language to be established. What if the alien's evolved from octopuses and have to spend half their time in an ocean enviroment and communicate with the colours of their skin and, no doubt, they'd have a different way of counting; how would you tell them you're hungry? I'm not saying language is always a barrier, but it is a significant hurdle that's not automatically surmountable. Much like time and distance... 😉 Thus rendering your question moot and your use of Sagan's quote irrelevant. Life can't exist without star's; but it can exist without a sun... And before we go round the block again, if life can exist without a direct need of a sun, then a parent star is not needed but a parent universe is.

And suddenly a religion is born...

Fair play, we were shit... I look forward to the rugby, for my chance to rub your nose in it. 🤞

We speak the same language and you don't understand me. Yes, you do that through anthropomorphism and training, that doesn't mean you can have a logical conversation with your dog... How would you anthropomorphise a jellyfish? This doesn't show my hypothesis to be wrong, it's just a different opinion. Got it, your question is moot and irrelevant...

Indeed, but I can ask...

What's telling, is that you do not read my post's. But not to your question as I've explained; another post you clearly haven't read. OTOH I have read all of your post's (and largely understood) and I challenge you to point to a post, where you have shown anyone that language isn't a barrier 'preventing contact'...

Maybe this thread will be of interest too you... Feel free to comment.

You're listening to the wrong guy in this; a myth is self perpetuating because we reinforce the mythical with anecdotes, rather than reason or evidence...

Be nice even if they're an enemy (the good Samaritan, et al), is the best I can come up with right now... It's actually not that complicated, if we could only recognise the bias of a lifetime...

Wiki beat you to it; there's nothing wrong with using a reference point to further your understanding; just be careful you don't limit your understanding by fixing that reference point to a rock...

You don't need art, if the message is clear... We'll always need stories to cut through the haze of meaning, and the closer the story/art is to my culture, the more likely I'm able to understand. In my culure, nurse's are angel's and they just have a uniform...

Yes I get it, you want to return to basics, to clarify your possition and avoid the ambiguity of a nuanced reality. However, the thread has evolved and I feel that the difficuty of first contact and communication is a legitimate line of enquiry that adds to the topic; no doubt you'll disagree, and you're most welcome too, but for a fruitful discussion an explanation of why you disagree is required (not just a dismissive hand waving excuse), IOW a reason why not an excuse not too.

I thought I had with help from swansont; but if you know better, feel free...

Fair enough, but communication can, I assume... But few to understand...

A book traps idea's, If there's only one copy... 😉

There in lies the problem, he wasn't seen to be punished. we can only imagine what he might suffer... And even that suffering, if Germain, is equal; we struggle too find retribution...

A feedback loop, my teacher said 'this' so 'this' must be true, no questions...

The problem with book's is, they trap our understanding in what we know; we don't need wing's or angel's to find heaven, just a map of the trap...

Now were back to my initial question, why are they hiding? The option's given assume 'they' exist, any reasonable thought experiment must include: They don't exist. They can't comunicate with us. They won't communicate with us. Why are you so angry at my ideas? They only threaten your understanding...

The third great barrier is language and understanding, I believe that's relevant to the topic. If you could lay off the condescension for just a minute or two and actually read what I've posted, you may learn something else.