Robittybob1 Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 What do the forum members think about memes? Are they related to instinct? Are they coded in the DNA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Meme (noun): to take a mundane concept (people share ideas) and turn it into a catchy but meaningless sound bite. One definition of bullshit is something that sounds clever but is meaningless. So the concept of memes is close to BS. Why is this in biology? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavelcherepan Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) Strange, meme is a term used by Richard Dawkins in his books in regards to the evolution of DNA and proliferation of successful genes. His position is that origin and proliferation of memes is analogous to that of genes. Edited January 27, 2016 by pavelcherepan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Just because the word was invented by a biologist, doesn't make it biology. If it belongs anywhere, it would be under social science. Or maybe psychology. (Or Trash ... mutter ... mutter ... grumble .... grumble ...) The Wikipedia has a good description: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted January 27, 2016 Author Share Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) Just because the word was invented by a biologist, doesn't make it biology. If it belongs anywhere, it would be under social science. Or maybe psychology. (Or Trash ... mutter ... mutter ... grumble .... grumble ...) The Wikipedia has a good description: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme There was an old thread in this same sub section but I didn't think right to resurrect it. Edited January 27, 2016 by Robittybob1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prometheus Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 We need only three things for evolution to occur: Something replicates. That replication is imperfect. Selective pressures act on the replicates, changing their chance of further replicating. Any system with these three properties should be subject to evolution, not just biological systems, Hence i would say it's theoretically possible. However, i'm not sure what evidence for memes would look like (as we enter the woolly world of sociology/psychology). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEC1960 Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Dr Dawkins invented the term but he did not mean for it to be applied to biology. His intention was to illustrate how some aspects of biological evolution are reflected in changes in social norms, constructs or themes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 ! Moderator Note I've moved this out of evolution, since it's obviously not a fit and probably not biology at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted January 27, 2016 Author Share Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) I think I understand it a little. Is it like young adults using fashion to improve their chances of getting a mate? So if there was offspring as a production the selection was based on a meme rather a gene, a memetic rather than a genetic trait. I suppose this shows a degree of intellect to be up with the play to be modern and cool. If someone dressed in old style clothes he might be thought of as weird and hence become socially shunned, hence less likely to contribute to the next generation. Edited January 27, 2016 by Robittybob1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharonY Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 No nothing like this at all. It is meant to say that people are spreading ideas. Similar to people spreading genes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 From Wikipedia Richard Dawkins author of The Selfish Gene argued that the role of key replicator in cultural evolution belongs not to genes, but to memes replicating thought from person to person by means of imitation. These replicators respond to selective pressures that may or may not affect biological reproduction or survival. Why does it say "may or may not" that just about covers it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharonY Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 It means that is actually independent of biological reproduction (in contrast to selective pressures working on genes/alleles). Examples include rituals that have absolutely no function but are handed down from generation to generation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 It means that is actually independent of biological reproduction (in contrast to selective pressures working on genes/alleles). Examples include rituals that have absolutely no function but are handed down from generation to generation. Give me an example please of a ritual with absolutely no function ....... please? I am wondering if the concepts of memes can be applied to animal behaviour. Birds seem to have singing/crowing competitions and that appears to be a selective activity (so we think). Roosters try to out crow each other but ultimately size counts (but they didn't seem to fight among themselves but there was a definite pecking order.) Was that mating order established during the competition of displaying their memes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Give me an example please of a ritual with absolutely no function ....... please? Passing out cigars when your wife has a baby. The original function was sharing an expensive, uncommon treat between father and friend, but carcinogen awareness and the proliferation of cheap cigars has made it fairly non-functional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 Passing out cigars when your wife has a baby. The original function was sharing an expensive, uncommon treat between father and friend, but carcinogen awareness and the proliferation of cheap cigars has made it fairly non-functional. My dad used to idolize his cigars too. Would we be making everything we do a meme then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 My dad used to idolize his cigars too. Would we be making everything we do a meme then? No. The meme isn't about loving cigars. It's about a ritual fathers go through that has no more function, other than "this is what all fathers do". Have a cigar, it's a boy! It was a ritual to enjoy the cigar with the new dad, but nowadays most people just either pass altogether, or tuck the cigar in their suit pocket, thank and congratulate dad, and throw the cigar away at their earliest convenience. I'm sure there are aficionados who keep this ritual, since there are a lot of premium cigars out there. For the most part though, I think this is a ritual that no longer functions the way it was supposed to. I'm also reminded of tossing the bouquet at weddings. Does anyone still believe in the superstition that you'll be next to marry if you catch it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 .... I'm also reminded of tossing the bouquet at weddings. Does anyone still believe in the superstition that you'll be next to marry if you catch it? Does it say to the gathering "I'm looking to get married" "I'm looking for a husband"? There is something going on in the inner consciousness here. It is like putting your hand up and saying pick me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Does it say to the gathering "I'm looking to get married" "I'm looking for a husband"? There is something going on in the inner consciousness here. It is like putting your hand up and saying pick me. The bouquet/garter contest may have some function there, even if it only serves to spotlight those eligible for marriage. It can get downright gladiatorial, and may influence selection. "Did you see Emily body check that bridesmaid to intercept the bouquet? She'll make a good wife!" : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharonY Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Or putting up a Christmas tree. It is a very successful meme, yet those with trees do not have any significant advantage to those that do not have one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Or putting up a Christmas tree. It is a very successful meme, yet those with trees do not have any significant advantage to those that do not have one. Indeed. It's probably a disadvantage. Only those with trees can have them catch fire. Or fall off the ladder putting the star on top. Or have a heart attack chasing the damn cats out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 (edited) Indeed. It's probably a disadvantage. Only those with trees can have them catch fire. Or fall off the ladder putting the star on top. Or have a heart attack chasing the damn cats out of it. Decorating houses with Christmas lights. Certainly brings the people around to your house. Does this increase the chances of finding a mate? Edited January 28, 2016 by Robittybob1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Decorating houses with Christmas lights. Certainly brings the people around to your house. Does this increase the chances of finding a mate? Trees, Rb1, we were talking about trees. Not all are visible from outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted January 29, 2016 Author Share Posted January 29, 2016 (edited) Trees, Rb1, we were talking about trees. Not all are visible from outside. So I thought about trees but struggled to see a selection advantage so I changed the topic to Christmas lights. But I am sure I could find a connection between the Christmas tree and the spread of genes .... it might take some time though. Google search to begin with using "Christmas tree" sexual as my search terms. What a surprise. Take Lady Gaga singing about her Christmas Tree for a starter. Or putting up a Christmas tree. It is a very successful meme, yet those with trees do not have any significant advantage to those that do not have one. The idea of memes is that they can mutate and even become extinct. True the Christmas tree might not give a selective advantage today but what about in the past? Looking at the 4 images in wikipedia below this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree#North_America there seems to be a visual linkage between success, happy marriage and fecundity and that is all that a meme need do. Edited January 29, 2016 by Robittybob1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharonY Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 That is quite far fetched, isn't it? You can have a celebration without having a tree in the house, and as a matter of fact people did. People are not likely to come to you just because you happen to have a tree. What is interesting about that tradition is that it probably originated from a different tradition and had its role changed of the years. You also see variation in decorations etc if you want to see them as mutations. But again, the main principle behind a meme is that it spreads and that it is independent to the benefit of the one doing it. A lone person may put up a Christmas tree, for example. You can extend it to any sorts of other spreading trends. Mind you, it does not mean that they do not confer an advantage, but that it can be independent on one. Which is the part which you were confused about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted January 29, 2016 Author Share Posted January 29, 2016 That is quite far fetched, isn't it? You can have a celebration without having a tree in the house, and as a matter of fact people did. People are not likely to come to you just because you happen to have a tree. What is interesting about that tradition is that it probably originated from a different tradition and had its role changed of the years. You also see variation in decorations etc if you want to see them as mutations. But again, the main principle behind a meme is that it spreads and that it is independent to the benefit of the one doing it. A lone person may put up a Christmas tree, for example. You can extend it to any sorts of other spreading trends. Mind you, it does not mean that they do not confer an advantage, but that it can be independent on one. Which is the part which you were confused about. Hi Charon, you and I don't argue often for you are usually right, and you could be right again, yet I sense a little uncertainty above. My ex is atheist but still has a Christmas tree. The tree is nothing to do with being Christian, but is the cultural tradition. So your family or friends could gather at Christmas day for dinner (tradition here is for this to be family more so than friends) there may or may not be a tree for the presents to be placed under (another tradition). So how traditional is the celebration you are talking about? Is it a variant of the Christmas day celebration meme? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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