Uplift

[Silvestru]

We are currently exploring subjects like artificial intelligence, human enhancements etc etc but what about other earth species.

 

In the Uplift universe (Scy-fi by David Brin), the dolphin and chimpanzee characters in the series have been genetically engineered to sapiency.

 

Is it somehow possible/ethical to improve the intelligence of a species? Something aside from selective breeding.

[DrP]

They done it to sharks in the film 'Deep Blue Sea' (I think that was the one) - but the sharks rebelled and ate most of the cast! It was a terrible film - frankly, I think those sharks were bloody ungrateful!

[KipIngram]

You'd have to think it would be theoretically possible on a per-species basis. Some species might just not be within "genetic engineering distance" of such an improvement, whereas others might. It's sure a lot easier to buy for chimps and dolphin than it is for sharks, but exactly where the limits lay might surprise us.

[Phi for All]

Human intelligence/consciousness/sapience is an emergent property made up of many seemingly unrelated elements. A major element was manual dexterity with an opposable thumb, and the opportunities for investigation, trial, and error that presupposes, so I'm not sure how a dolphin could be conditioned similarly. Ditto for using fire to cook food that changed our physiology to allow us far greater environmental versatility than a chimpanzee.

 

Can you genetically alter a creature so it has more of a trait that was developed so intricately? Human intelligence owes much to our skills in communication and cooperation. How do you genetically induce such things? I would think there are too many markers that can't be artificially created, but incredulity is all the argument I have at present.

[Silvestru]

I wanted to avoid bringing up selective breeding but it's something that has already been done.

 

Many dog breeds are artificially created and not a natural occurrence.

 

We can say that a Golden Retriever or a German Shepard is smarter than a Dachshund (sorry for offending any hot dog owners).

 

This is because we were looking for different traits for each of these dog breeds.

[dimreepr]

I think history, eugenics, and books like "A brave new world" suggests it's not ethical.

 

But philosophically, if we're so smart why do we worry so much, instead of playing around and having a good time?

[Phi for All]

I wanted to avoid bringing up selective breeding but it's something that has already been done.

 

Many dog breeds are artificially created and not a natural occurrence.

 

We can say that a Golden Retriever or a German Shepard is smarter than a Dachshund (sorry for offending any hot dog owners).

 

This is because we were looking for different traits for each of these dog breeds.

 

How many generations do you figure it would take to breed sapience into a dog with no thumbs? A dog that needs all its limbs just to move around? I'm not sure you could get the kind of sapience humans are familiar with unless you have a species that can talk and hold a stick at the same time.

[Moontanman]

 

How many generations do you figure it would take to breed sapience into a dog with no thumbs? A dog that needs all its limbs just to move around? I'm not sure you could get the kind of sapience humans are familiar with unless you have a species that can talk and hold a stick at the same time.

 

 

I think dogs are already sapient, but If I was going to bet I'd say meerkats and giant river otters are already going in that direction...

[KipIngram]

Human intelligence/consciousness/sapience is an emergent property made up of many seemingly unrelated elements. A major element was manual dexterity with an opposable thumb, and the opportunities for investigation, trial, and error that presupposes, so I'm not sure how a dolphin could be conditioned similarly. Ditto for using fire to cook food that changed our physiology to allow us far greater environmental versatility than a chimpanzee.

 

Can you genetically alter a creature so it has more of a trait that was developed so intricately? Human intelligence owes much to our skills in communication and cooperation. How do you genetically induce such things? I would think there are too many markers that can't be artificially created, but incredulity is all the argument I have at present.

 

That's a really good point - I was focused on just the brain capability side of the question, but I agree that facing the right kinds of stimuli in day-to-day life would be really important too.

[Phi for All]

I think dogs are already sapient, but If I was going to bet I'd say meerkats and giant river otters are already going in that direction...

 

Sentient, definitely, but I don't know if they're sapient by the OP definition.

[MigL]

The did it to the apes too, in the new Planet of the Apes series of movies, DrP.

And those bloody apes don't seem very grateful either in this next movie.

[Silvestru]

What about genetic meddling? Could we somehow stimulate or introduce genes that increase brain size for primates? I'm sorry for insisting but I really want to have a chat and a cup of tea with Bubbles during my lifetime.

[DrP]

The did it to the apes too, in the new Planet of the Apes series of movies, DrP.

And those bloody apes don't seem very grateful either in this next movie.

 

I thought the apes evolved (At least I think they did in Charlton Heston one. They had been in space so long that the planet was overrun by apes after a nuclear war or something like that). The sharks in the other film were actually genetically mutated by the humans to make them a lot more intelligent.... for which they showed no thanks for whatsoever.

[Delta1212]

Phi, I think you are vastly overestimating the necessity of thumbs. That's not to say they didn't contribute to how our intelligence evolved, but I think cetaceans and certain birds are near the top of the list of intelligent non-primates that would be candidates for being considered sapient or near sapient and none of them have anything remotely approaching thumbs.

 

Plus, we're talking about using genetic engineering and artificial selection to foster the desired traits, which doesn't necessarily require reproducing all of the specific environmental pressures and physiological structures that naturally pushed us in that direction in our own history.

 

 

I thought the apes evolved (At least I think they did in Charlton Heston one. They had been in space so long that the planet was overrun by apes after a nuclear war or something like that). The sharks in the other film were actually genetically mutated by the humans to make them a lot more intelligent.... for which they showed no thanks for whatsoever.

The first movie was rather ambiguous about how the apes ended up that way, although it turns out that all of the intelligent apes are descended from the son of the two chimps that helped Charlton Heston in the first movie after they traveled back in time to present day Earth in one of the sequels.

 

The new movies skipped out on all of that and started with what was the last movie in the original series but with the apes originating from genetic engineering gone wrong rather than time travel.