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Nature of light


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#21 Mordred

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Posted 20 May 2017 - 09:40 PM

lol though you would find yourself on a different geodesic though not in your favor. 😲
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#22 frankglennjacobs@gmail.com

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 04:07 PM

AH!  There IS humor among scientists!  (". . . someone puts  world in your way . . .")

 

As to God turning on the lights, I am sure He didn't need light, but He knew that many of His living creatures would need it.

 

And Moses was writing to a world full of goat-herders and pocket-miners.  (But that's MY level, anyway.)

 

Never mind for now.  I have to go study your many answers until they shake down in my mind to make sense to me.


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#23 frankglennjacobs@gmail.com

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 01:30 AM

Studiot,

 

Yes, it helps. 

 

It helps when you say yes.

 

It helps when you say yes, but . . .

 

It helps when you say no.

 

The kind words help.

 

The explanations help.

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lord Anteres,

 

I disagree.  Having done the rope-waves thing has given me a starting point to understanding the propagation of waves.  It is a kindergarten-level exercise, but I had to start somewhere.   "Now do it without the rope," is a step up.

 

 

 

 

 

 


Strange,

 

Quantum?  The littlest pieces of energy?  I will have to follow your thread elsewhere.  It sounds interesting.

 

 

 

 

 

 


Handy Andy,

 

You are beyond me.  I have no idea what you mean.  I am at kindergarten level.  Maybe in a few years.  You talk about creating space, for example.  I will have to come back to that later.

 

 

 

 

 

Sensei,

 

You speak truth, but the "insufferable incompetence" is ignorance about these high-level subjects.  Ask those same people about fishing or logging or laying brick, and you will find them quite competent.

 

 

 

 Mordred,

 

Of course that is right.  The transmission of light is NOT like a rope wave -- or like anything else.

 

We are not able to jump from complete ignorance to full knowledge.  So, light is "like a wave" and "like a handful of gravel".    "Only, without the rope."


Edited by frankglennjacobs@gmail.com, 22 May 2017 - 01:43 AM.

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#24 frankglennjacobs@gmail.com

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 05:55 PM

All right now, back to the rope:  I see that the wave reflects off the tie-point and comes back to my hand.   

 

Sound waves cannot be seen (I think) but the rope waves can. 

 

If I slap two boards together, they make a sound wave that echoes off each house all the way down the street.  I can understand from the echoes that my sound wave has gotten to the red house and come back; to the yellow house and come back, etc. 

 

Going outside at night with one of those expensive trick "tactical" flashlights, it can make a light wave and I can see that it gets to the next house and the next and so on, and back to me -- as far as I can tell, instantly.

 

Not instantly.  Sometimes on the telephone, there is an echo and I hear my own voice coming back from space just a fraction of a second later. They tell me the space satellite is 23,000 mile away.  So the electromagnetic pulse goes 46,000 miles in that time.

 

People who know about that sort of thing tell me radio goes as fast as light.

 

Now we're getting somewhere. 

 

But I am beginning to see why light is not like a rope-wave.   It is totally different.  It cannot be explained with  rope waves.  It cannot be explained with water waves nor sound waves.  It is like trying to explain an internal-combustion engine with a candle.

 

I cannot even explain it by way of radio waves -- because I don't know what they are nor how they travel.

 

Gentlemen, I thank all of you for carrying me around on a  silken cushion.


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#25 Strange

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 08:43 PM

I cannot even explain it by way of radio waves -- because I don't know what they are nor how they travel.

 

 

Radio waves are the same thing as light waves, just a different frequency.


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#26 frankglennjacobs@gmail.com

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 03:49 AM

So radio waves vibrate sideways (at right angles to their direction of travel).

 

Any idea how they do that?  Well, yes, you have pages of mathematics on that subject.  I mean, anything that will educate ME?


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#27 swansont

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 11:11 AM

So radio waves vibrate sideways (at right angles to their direction of travel).

 

Any idea how they do that?  Well, yes, you have pages of mathematics on that subject.  I mean, anything that will educate ME?

 

 

This "vibration" is the strength of the electric and magnetic fields. It is not a physical displacement as with a rope. You might note that on the diagrams you see, if they are any good, the axes will be labeled. Each transverse direction is amplitude of the field.  

 

such as

http://hyperphysics..../emwavecon.html

 

That one I like because it doesn't even show a continuous curve, which is often misleading to neophytes, who then think the wave actually travels a sinusoidal path.


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#28 frankglennjacobs@gmail.com

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 09:55 PM

So the electric field and the magnetic field go perpendicular of each other, and of the direction of travel.

 

(Back to the rope analogy!  The wave travels perpendicular to the actual movement of the rope.  "Wow!  Who'da thunk it?!")

 

Back in the Dark Ages, we used to make electrons slosh back and forth in a resonant circuit.  This generated a wave that went out of the antenna in all directions.  But as far as I know, the electrons in the resonant circuit didn't go out of the antenna and into space.


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#29 swansont

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 10:18 PM

So the electric field and the magnetic field go perpendicular of each other, and of the direction of travel.
 
(Back to the rope analogy!  The wave travels perpendicular to the actual movement of the rope.  "Wow!  Who'da thunk it?!")
 
Back in the Dark Ages, we used to make electrons slosh back and forth in a resonant circuit.  This generated a wave that went out of the antenna in all directions.  But as far as I know, the electrons in the resonant circuit didn't go out of the antenna and into space.


Why would they?
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#30 frankglennjacobs@gmail.com

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Posted 27 May 2017 - 03:22 AM

The Electric Company does not sell us electrons. 

 

It uses its big machines to make our own electrons slosh back and forth in our own house wiring at sixty cycles. 

 

We pay them to do this for us.

 

Then we did various things with this energy and made our own privately-owned electrons slosh back and forth in resonant circuits.

 

Since we couldn't see what was happening, we thought all sorts of things about what was making the connection between our transmitters and other people's receivers.  I, for one, was surprised to find that my own collection of electrons stayed right in the final circuit and did NOT go out "thru the Aether" to the world.


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#31 MigL

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Posted 27 May 2017 - 03:36 AM

Right.

The Electric Company sells us energy with which we are able to perform work.

Electrons aren't energy.

Potential is.


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#32 swansont

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Posted 27 May 2017 - 10:54 AM

Since we couldn't see what was happening, we thought all sorts of things about what was making the connection between our transmitters and other people's receivers.  I, for one, was surprised to find that my own collection of electrons stayed right in the final circuit and did NOT go out "thru the Aether" to the world.


Great, you learned some physics. Not sure what this has to do with the nature of light, unless your point is that light is not made up of electrons, which I thought was already pretty well established.
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Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum          To go to the fortress of ultimate darkness, click the up arrow ^

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#33 frankglennjacobs@gmail.com

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Posted 27 May 2017 - 03:27 PM

Only that I had about half-way expected that radio waves were composed of electrons somehow jumping thru space.

 

That would not make the only time I had speculated incorrectly.


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#34 Mordred

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Posted 27 May 2017 - 04:17 PM

+1 on taking the time to learn the correct physics. That of the flow of charge not of electrons.
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http://www.einsteins.../LightCone.html
http://cosmology101.wikidot.com/main
http://cosmocalc.wikidot.com/start
If you wish to change the rules, you must first understand the rules.

#35 frankglennjacobs@gmail.com

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Posted Yesterday, 04:18 PM

Mordred,

 

Educate me here:  Is a flow of electrons different from a flow of charge? How?

 

If I wave a magnet over a coil and it motivates a bunch of electrons to move back and forth, say an inch, and that causes electrons a mile or two up the line to move back and forth, is that not charge moving? 

 

Glenn


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#36 Mordred

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Posted Yesterday, 04:30 PM

Does vibration cause the atoms to flow in a material ?

In flow of charge the charge is mediated by photons. The photon in essence transfers the charge from one electron to another via orientation change. By photons I am specifically referring to the vector gauge virtual photon. Which can exhibit one or more quantum properties.

The proton, electrons and photon are charge carriers. For example in a circuit you have two simultaneous charge flows. Positive to negative and vise versa. You you have a flow of positive charge and a flow of negative charge. Which equates to the magnetic moment (spin) orientation density at a particular location. Ie a higher percentage will have a given orientation.

Lol little side note if positive charge meant flow of protons then the individual elements would temporarily change which is obviously flat out wrong. Here is a fairly decent classical coverage.

http://web.mit.edu/8...tm#_Toc27302307

Another clue that it is charge that flows and not the protons and electrons is the medium. No two particles of different mass can flow through a medium at identical rates. Hence a single particle must be mediating the charge. ( the rate of charge flow tells us this particle must be massless) hence the photon vector guage boson.

Edited by Mordred, Yesterday, 05:35 PM.

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http://www.einsteins.../LightCone.html
http://cosmology101.wikidot.com/main
http://cosmocalc.wikidot.com/start
If you wish to change the rules, you must first understand the rules.

#37 frankglennjacobs@gmail.com

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Posted Today, 01:38 AM

I have put silver wires into distilled water (with a little salt) and applied 28 volts of direct current.  In a matter of hours, the water takes on a golden color and the silver metal takes on a corroded, abraded look. 

 

My conclusion is that actual silver atoms are being moved from the solid metal into the water.

 

Heavier evidence:  Every day flatbed trucks haul big slabs of impure copper from the smelter to someplace east of here.

They are electroplated from those slabs to new ones of pure copper.  The impurities fall into the bottom of the tank.

 

Gentlemen, electrons may not move, but copper atoms do.


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