ali_baba

please help me: how can this cycle work ?

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ali_baba    3

please help me: how can this wheel work ? or is Trick ?

link removed per rules

very thank's
BR

Edited by imatfaal
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imatfaal    2477

!

Moderator Note

 

Link in your removed per the rules.

 

Please post basis of discussion here - the rules are explicit that members should not be forced offsite in order to participate in debate.

 

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ali_baba    3

hello . please see Pics

Untitfgled.png

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Untitlasasased.png

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Untitlereted.png

 

this can work ? or no ?


Description of the invention concept

A strong magnet set in the open slot between sides of the wheel attracts an iron ball.

The magnet is supposed to draw the ball to one side of the center to make the wheel permanently unbalanced.

It is important to note that the static potential energy of the magnetic force is converted into pure kinetic energy.

Theoretical study of the perpetual wheel

2012.08.11_MagnetMotor_OverunityEngine_M

We assume that the ball rolls and slips on the inner track of the wheel.

The various inventoried losses of this motor are :

  • Rolling friction losses ( Rrf ) of the ball on the inner track of the wheel and resulting from local deformation of the raceway under the weight of the ball,
  • Power losses due to sliding of the contact surfaces of the ball and raceway (ω' is greater than ω),
  • Loss of two ball bearings installed on the axis of the wheel.

 


 

Balance of forces

Balance of forces along y1 axis :

2012.08.11_MagnetMotor_OverunityEngine_B

Balance of forces along x1 axis :

2012.08.11_MagnetMotor_OverunityEngine_B

We have the following relationship between Rrf and R :

2012.08.11_MagnetMotor_OverunityEngine_R

Then, it comes:

2012.08.11_MagnetMotor_OverunityEngine_G

Expressing the following equalities :

2018.08.11_MagnetMotor_OverunityEngine_F

It comes then :

2012.08.11_MagnetMotor_OverunityEngine_G

In this formula, the following terms are known: F magnet, m, g, α and θ. α is the angle of the rolling friction.

The combined gravity and magnetic forces cause an unbalance of the rolling ball which is not compensated by an equal and opposite reaction force. The ball is forced to rotate and this rotation drives the main wheel by means of rolling friction force.

Due to violation of Newton's third law, there is creation of excess positive energy from potential energy supplied by static magnetic and gravitic fields.

Static potential energy is thus converted into kinetic energy by that perpetual wheel.

 


full file in .PDF

The perpetual wheel driven by a permanent magnet.pdf

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KipIngram    129

Wait, let me get this straight. You're proposing that that the ball will roll up the incline of the raceway toward the magnet, and this rolling will drive the wheel counterclockwise continuously?

 

No, that won't work. You don't even really have to do the math to show it won't work - this sort of thing never works. You're putting no energy in, and you noted the various ways energy can be lost. Conservation of energy prohibits all devices of this nature.

 

If you execute a detailed analysis of the system correctly it will show that. If you do an analysis that does imply continuous rotation of the wheel then you made a mistake in the analysis somewhere.

 

The other reason you know it won't work is that if it would work we'd have machinery all over the place that exploited the principle. :)

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studiot    1131

 

It is important to note that the static potential energy of the magnetic force is converted into pure kinetic energy.

 

Not quite I think.

 

Check the geometry very carfully for the position of the centre of gravity.

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humility    1

I dont think the ball would roll. It would just be dragged. And without the rolling motion the wheel won't spin. Because the magnet would have to just pull on the top edge of the ball, letting go as soon as that edge is no longer the top, repeat. For the ball to roll. And thats not how magnets work.

 

Like how if you try to play pool on a air hockey table, everytime you hit a ball in the center, it just skids along the table rather than rolling.

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KipIngram    129

Well, I think the magnet would pull on the whole ball to various degrees, create a force distribution throughout it. And then whether it rolls or gets dragged depends only on the friction coefficient between the ball and wheel. The magnetic attraction is not going to direction cause the ball to rotate, but contact with the wheel could, depending on the specific numbers an analysis revealed.

 

But even if you grant rolling, the motion is still going to be transient and come to an end. It's entirely possible that the wheel might turn a bit when you first introduce the magnetic (i.e., when you "switch on" the magnetic field.) But the steady state solution to the entire problem is static. There will be no "unbalanced force" on the wheel, because the component of gravitational force on the ball tangential to the wheel will be precisely balanced by the component of the magnetic force on the ball tangential to the wheel.

 

When this thing has no magnetic, we all know that the ball will be at the bottom of the wheel. It's still experiencing a gravitational force, but that force is normal to the wheel's inner surface. No tangential force - no motion. With the magnet in place the total force on the ball (gravitational and magnetic) will be... normal to the inner surface of the wheel. No tangential force - no motion.

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KipIngram    129

No. I suspect the whole story isn't being portrayed there. That is just not how the world works. As I said, if that worked we'd have many, many devices in regular use based on the process. Especially if it was patented in 1823.

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KipIngram    129

:) That would be pretty rad, wouldn't it? Early in the video it had a frame about something patented in 1823.

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studiot    1131

 

Balance of forces

Balance of forces along y1 axis :

2012.08.11_MagnetMotor_OverunityEngine_B

Balance of forces along x1 axis :

2012.08.11_MagnetMotor_OverunityEngine_B

We have the following relationship between Rrf and R :

2012.08.11_MagnetMotor_OverunityEngine_R

Then, it comes:

2012.08.11_MagnetMotor_OverunityEngine_G

Expressing the following equalities :

2018.08.11_MagnetMotor_OverunityEngine_F

 

This maths starts with an elementary mistake.

 

The forces are not balanced yet the author writes an equilibrium equation as though the ball and wheel were in equilibrium.

 

They cannot be in equilibrium since they are in motion, suffering accelerations and decelerations.

 

 

So can we have a correct analysis please?

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ali_baba    3

i think this is a game between Gra vs Mag.

 

experience is better than science. for Trust. Has anyone tested ?

Edited by ali_baba

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!

Moderator Note

ali_baba, I have once again removed the link to the video. Please stop doing this. Ask your questions and present your ideas here. You shouldn't need a video to carry the entirety of what you're asking.

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Bender    132

experience is better than science. for Trust. Has anyone tested ?

In a way, science is experience, but in a rigorous way.

 

Without the rigor, experience is nothing but a bunch of anecdotes.

 

I have tested magnets and wheels and rolling balls and conservation of energy separately. There is no need to test them again combined in a different configuration.

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Externet    118

Easy to make one. Put a shaft on a frisbee and a bearing ball in its channel. Then come back with results of the failure.

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DrP    347

Even if you did get the set up to turn and spin unaided it would be slow and any power harnessed would not be enough to remake the magnet once it's field had depleted.

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Bender    132

A magnets field doesn't get depleted by use (under normal circumstances), much like how a gravitational field doesn't get depleted.

 

A bit of potential magnetic energy would be converted to kinetic energy and gravitational potential energy, and then those three energy types individually would go up and down, while their sum monotonically decreases as friction converts them into heat.

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DrP    347

Pretty sure the nuclei that are lined up get knocked about and the magnet will loose it's strength slowly with time as it is being used to pull up the ball.

 

That's what they told us at school anyway... but that was over 20 years ago and things may have changed since then - I have been wrong before by quoting what I was taught at school.

Edited by DrP
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Bender    132

Magnets can slowly degrade over time, but this takes many years and is not really related to how often it pulled on a ball. In fact, while it is pulling on a steel object (or another magnet), the degradation happens slower. More on e.g. this link.

 

I remember from school that they told us always to store magnets with a piece of steel attached to close the magnetic field lines, and there is certainly some value in that, since it keeps the field aligned rather than it attempting to turn back on itself. It is also in a lower, and consequently more stable, energy state.

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