Worlds Energy requirements ' May be ' within our technological Grasp !

[DrP]

.

I am finding it hard to conceptually grasp that long waves are harmful . If one looks at the entire electro magnetic spectrum from grumbling oscillations at a sub sound hearing level , being as benign as a young kiddy jumping through the rotational hoop where two other children are swinging a rope , like a giant half wave . Up through the painless sound range ( unless heavy rock gets to you ) with babies being detected with ultra sonics . A quick skip to the far end of the Electro magnetic spectrum.....

 

Sound is a pressure wave - not EM. The skipping rope is a standing wave I think, but clearly not EM. UltraSOUND... (clue is in the name), not EM. Maybe that is where your mis conception is coming from not understanding what EM waves are or something? Put enough energy into these waves, EM or not and they will be harmful. (Yes, the skipping rope, the rock music and the ultrasound too).

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Sound is a pressure wave - not EM. The skipping rope is a standing wave I think, but clearly not EM. UltraSOUND... (clue is in the name), not EM. Maybe that is where your mis conception is coming from not understanding what EM waves are or something? Put enough energy into these waves, EM or not and they will be harmful. (Yes, the skipping rope, the rock music and the ultrasound too).

 

Yes I accept my statement about skipping ropes was deliberately ' tongue in cheek' . And I slipped when referring to ultra sound is of course mechanical Ultra sonics . l.( slip there) .

 

But what I can not understand how low frequency electro magnetic waves can be harmful , when there is nothing going on at that frequency in the body or brain. Is there? The mere presence of electro and magneto is there anyway within and about atoms. Surely it could only be harmful if something in the human body absorbed it . And for that to happen the said vulnerable body part would have to resonate or there abouts. And for resonance to occur the wavelength needs to be of a reasonable order of magnitude , near to a bodily part in length . We are talking 1500 meters ( the length of 15 football pitches end on end ) , to get down to even whole body size ( say 1.5 meters) that is 3 orders of magnitude removed ( a tenth 1/10 of a tenth 1/10 of a tenth 1/10 ) . Energy is only contained in the oscillation or wave, so how can something 3 orders of magnitude in frequency different have any possible response like absorption.

 

However I am quite willing to be hopelessly wrong , but I just can't see any part of our body ' seeing' these LF waves whatever their amplitude.

 

From my knowledge of energy transfer , this occurs when there is a match ( match of impedance say 75 ohms or 50 ohms and this is a wave or AC impedance not DC ) and for that sort of AC it needs to be frequency sensitive or near to tuned ,or near to resonant not near to DC or UHF.

 

Maybe very large long Dinosaurs as a whole could resonate, but even then not their body parts . Or Canadian redwood trees .

 

 

Mike

Edited July 25, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

But what I can not understand how low frequency electro magnetic waves can be harmful , when there is nothing going on at that frequency in the body or brain. Is there?

 

 

If you overheat the brain, you cause brain damage. That's why high fevers are dangerous. EM waves deposit energy, and heats tissue up. That's how microwave ovens work. That's why there are power limits on non-ionizing radiation.

 

A 1 m^2 blackbody at 308K (roughly body surface temperature) emits 510 watts, almost 100 W higher than incoming ambient radiation at 293K. That's how we normally shed heat — we radiate it away. Now, if you add an extra 100 W in, the body isn't radiating that 100W away. We're in equilibrium. So the body's temperature has to rise to do so, by about 13K. You can't tolerate running a 13K fever.

 

Even 10W (since all of the energy won't be deposited) requires more than a 1K rise in temperature to compensate. In effect, it would be like running a fever all the time. That's if radiation was doing the job. In reality you'd sweat (profusely) as well, and dehydrate.

[MigL]

Microwaves deposit energy and heat up food by interacting ( resonant frequency ) with the intramolecular bonds of water molecules.

And as Mike says there has to be an interaction for this deposition of energy and raising of temperature.

What would EM radiation of 1m wavelength interact with ?

 

Or have I come in at the tail end of a discussion, don't have aclue what you guys are talking about, and should shut up and keep my comments to myself ?

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Microwaves deposit energy and heat up food by interacting ( resonant frequency ) with the intramolecular bonds of water molecules.

And as Mike says there has to be an interaction for this deposition of energy and raising of temperature.

What would EM radiation of 1m wavelength interact with ?

 

Or have I come in at the tail end of a discussion, don't have aclue what you guys are talking about, and should shut up and keep my comments to myself ?

.

No don't shut up , because you sound like the only one who agrees with me, to do with ' long wave being reasonably harmless' . At least for the moment . I will cling on to it , while it lasts.

 

My point is that the energy contained in the radio wave I am using ( proposing using ) , is at a comparatively low frequency 200khz. ( 1500 meter wavelength. ) . Yes with energy at a density of 100 watts per sq meter. ( 100 watts available to be useful at a personal level. )

 

I am saying , suggesting , that , that energy , will not be felt by a human body even though it is passing through or by it , Because there is nothing in the human body that will resonate at 200khz or 1500 meters, because the waves are far too long. * Thus the energy will NOT be absorbed , but pass on, through ,or by ,without interaction. Without heating and giving rise to a raging fever . Or at least , that's what I surmise , because I can not see how it communicates with flesh , brains and bones at that frequency . I am saying , suggesting , the dangers come up at high frequencies , where the wavelength is in the same order of magnitude and smaller . Say microwaves, infrared waves, ultra violet waves, x rays , gamma rays .

 

 

Mike

 

Ps 1 or 2 meters is a radio amateur frequency band , and I , and many others have transmitted continuously on that frequency to no harm . ( mind you my brain is a bit addled , now you come to mention it! ) ...da...h

 

If you overheat the brain, you cause brain damage. That's why high fevers are dangerous. EM waves deposit energy, and heats tissue up. That's how microwave ovens work. That's why there are power limits on non-ionizing radiation.

 

A 1 m^2 blackbody at 308K (roughly body surface temperature) emits 510 watts, almost 100 W higher than incoming ambient radiation at 293K. That's how we normally shed heat we radiate it away. Now, if you add an extra 100 W in, the body isn't radiating that 100W away. We're in equilibrium. So the body's temperature has to rise to do so, by about 13K. You can't tolerate running a 13K fever.

 

Even 10W (since all of the energy won't be deposited) requires more than a 1K rise in temperature to compensate. In effect, it would be like running a fever all the time. That's if radiation was doing the job. In reality you'd sweat (profusely) as well, and dehydrate.

* hitting you with . 200 kHz long wave . Is like hitting you with a duck feather filled pillow that is 1500 meters long , 200,000 times a second .

 

There is a fair bit of energy in there , that pillow , 100 watts , but it's ( the energy in the duck feathers ) are all spread out over this 1500 meter long pillow . Quite a harmless experience !

Edited July 25, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

Microwaves deposit energy and heat up food by interacting ( resonant frequency ) with the intramolecular bonds of water molecules.

 

No. microwaves do not interact at a resonant frequency. There are no resonances nearby. See post 94, and feel free to look for other graphs for longer wavelengths.

 

(You don't want to be at a resonance for cooking, anyway. You want penetration, rather than absorption right at the surface)

[MigL]

You don't need penetration as the water molecules whose bonds get excited at that particular frequency are internal to the food. So the 'penetration' is a result of the microwaves only interacting with the water bonds.

 

Having read more of the previous posts however, I see the impracticality of Mike's method. The very fact that these long waves don't readily interact with atomic and molecular bonds means that capture and conversion to useable frequency/wavelength is also very difficult.

Edited July 26, 2015 by MigL

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

You don't need penetration as the water molecules whose bonds get excited at that particular frequency are internal to the food. So the 'penetration' is a result of the microwaves only interacting with the water bonds.

 

Having read more of the previous posts however, I see the impracticality of Mike's method. The very fact that these long waves don't readily interact with atomic and molecular bonds means that capture and conversion to useable frequency/wavelength is also very difficult.

I appreciate what you mean " like you can't have it both ways" . If it will not cause harm , how are you going to collect the energy ?

 

Well ! In the regional collecting stations there is no reason why , larger structure antennas should not be constructed . Half wave or quarter wave conventional antenna would be 375 metres long or 750 metres , respectively . Even if the conductors were 5 cm diameter copper or aluminium .

 

For the distributed personal collection , that might be more difficult and in need of innovative design.

 

The quartz crystal antenna idea has promise * ,

As could some form of ( ,frequency conversion ** , or

Time slicing circuit wizardry!***)

 

In other words by crafted design rather than by nature.

 

*

*** .

 

* Link to quartz antenna :- http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/88557-symmetry-breaking-could-enable-antennas-on-a-chip/

** Link to frequency converters at mains voltages :- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_changer

**

 

*** Design a time base circuit that is synchronised to the incoming signal . This time base running at the required frequency that you require. Then sample and gate the incoming signal . Thus producing a signal the amplitude and frequency you require , carrying the energy collected from the incoming signal . (frequency conversion ) incoming 200khz outgoing 50 hz or whatever eg DC

Edited July 26, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

You don't need penetration as the water molecules whose bonds get excited at that particular frequency are internal to the food. So the 'penetration' is a result of the microwaves only interacting with the water bonds.

 

You want the attenuation coefficient to be of order a 100/m, and not bigger. That's why they operate at ~2.4 GHz. What happens when you deposit your 67% of your kW in the first mm of the food (or less), instead? Then you cook at the surface, mostly within the 1/e penetrating depth of the radiation, and the inside only cooks because of conduction, just like in a regular oven. You would also burn the crap out of whatever you are cooking, while the inside is still raw. You'd need to turn the power down and cook longer, just like in a regular oven. You lose the advantage of fast cooking.

[Harold Squared]

Unfortunately we have harvested a lot of natures store already . I am suggesting we harvest a small portion of the suns energy while in orbit , and send it down to earth in long wave form . This then is an indefinitely sustainable supply .

 

1. To distribute it generally everywhere at 100 watts per sq meter for personal use ( personal transport, communications, computing ) etc

 

2 To send to set sites spread throughout the world . But directed to these stations at 10 megawatts per site ( 100meters x 100meters) ( 1 kilowatt per sq meter. ) for living and industrial use .

 

Mike

 

Ps I like the sound of these quartz crystal antennas . Saves on lengthy Aerials.

I like it. You sound like a sensible fellow.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

I think this is an example of a condensed. Long Wave antenna

 

.

 

Here is how they used to play with long waves .. A long wave loading coil. In ( 1910 )

 

 

Mike

Edited July 28, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

I think this is an example of a condensed. Long Wave antenna

 

.image.jpg

 

Here is how they used to play with long waves .. A long wave loading coil. In ( 1910 )

 

image.jpg

 

Mike

 

I can see how everyone will want one of those instead of solar panels.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

I can see how everyone will want one of those instead of solar panels.

.

Yes but think of the fun you can have !

 

!

 

200-300 watts of continuous energy , diving a motor on your personal transport. Of course if you simplified the reception device , you could even take a passenger on a gentle outing along country lanes.

....

Mk 2

 

 

Mike

Edited July 28, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

Very gentle. 300 watts is about 0.4 horsepower. ~1/750 of the power of the motor of a Tesla roadster. I hope there are no hills.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Very gentle. 300 watts is about 0.4 horsepower. ~1/750 of the power of the motor of a Tesla roadster. I hope there are no hills.

.

Yes but, in reality , although only 300 watts is available , this is continuous 300 watts . On level roads, at speed ,very little wattage is required as one is only overcoming gentle air resistance and friction . If we go far more slowly than we currently travel ( which is an absolute must if we are to live within our world energy budget ) , then we can store up unused wattage in some form of stored electrical energy system. Also overnight and when not in use .This can then be utilised on hill portions of the journey where ( MxGxH ) potential energy needs to be tackled by the vehicle . Similarly during non activity during the day, and pausing, and down hill ( regaining a proportion of the MGH ) , the energy is accrued for those parts of the journey , where it requires much more than 300 watts.

 

Mike

 

Ps.

As I mentioned somewhere recently ( Ray Bradbury's si fi story " Silver Locusts" posited . The Martians had already gone through all this and depleted Mars of its resources . They now drift energy-less, practically , about the skies in ethereal balloons !

Edited July 28, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Endy0816]

Aren't those the old submarine ones?

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Aren't those the old submarine ones?

I presume you mean the submarine use of long waves as a means of communication at sea, or under the sea.

I imagine that was the major use .

 

Below is

 

A) yesterday's ( 75 years ago ) ships wireless ' set up. ' for the radio operator.

 

B) Also in contrast , 'no doubt' , today's radio operators controls .

 

A)

 

B)

 

Mike

Edited July 28, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

.

Yes but, in reality , although only 300 watts is available , this is continuous 300 watts . On level roads, at speed ,very little wattage is required as one is only overcoming gentle air resistance and friction . If we go far more slowly than we currently travel ( which is an absolute must if we are to live within our world energy budget ) then we can store up unused wattage in some form of stored electrical energy system.

 

Baloney. Terrestrial solar power satisfying our energy needs would not take up much area at all.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Baloney. Terrestrial solar power satisfying our energy needs would not take up much area at all.

 

It is not the area , that I refer to , in our resources being used up . It is the current usage of Coal and Oil being used up at an alarming rate . Ok. That got us to where we are now . But we need to put ourselves in gear for a sustainable supply of energy, for the future.

 

 

I think that your comment , quoted above , is a little sweeping. For :-

 

1. The idea of energy everywhere . ( all be it a modest amount ) Is not to be dismissed, easily .

 

2 Also the constancy of supply with non interference from cloud and night cover.

 

3. Similarly , when it comes to the larger receiving fixed stations ,the advantage of having the easy ability to direct much higher power supplies at will ( overnight , if necessary ) , in order to distribute the supply of power , practically wirelessly , ANYWHERE rather than pylons and cables ( apart from that which comes from a local receiving station to homes and factories. NO great stretches of pylons spanning the countryside .

 

To mention but a few advantages.

 

Mike

Edited July 29, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

It is not the area , that I refer to , in our resources being used up . It is the current usage of Coal and Oil being used up at an alarming rate . Ok. That got us to where we are now . But we need to put ourselves in gear for a sustainable supply of energy, for the future.

 

It's not the area I refer to either. Just that putting solar panels on earth is easily attainable. Area is not a limitation. The technology already exists, and it's happening now. No additional technology or complications, no new safety issues to investigate.

I think that your comment , quoted above , is a little sweeping. For :-

 

1. The idea of energy everywhere . ( all be it a modest amount ) Is not to be dismissed, easily .

 

When the plan lacks the details of how it will work in terms of existing, demonstrated technology, it is more easily dismissed as a viable solution.

 

2 Also the constancy of supply with non interference from cloud and night cover.

 

You brought up the idea of storage being necessary for your idea. How is it that storage is OK for you, but not for others?

 

3. Similarly , when it comes to the larger receiving fixed stations ,the advantage of having the easy ability to direct much higher power supplies at will ( overnight , if necessary ) , in order to distribute the supply of power , practically wirelessly , ANYWHERE rather than pylons and cables ( apart from that which comes from a local receiving station to homes and factories. NO great stretches of pylons spanning the countryside .

 

So you can't address the safety at one power level, so you tout an advantage of even higher power?

 

 

The biggest issue overall is that space-based power is a solution in search of a problem. It's not solving an actual unsolved problem that we have.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

It's not the area I refer to either. Just that putting solar panels on earth is easily attainable.

 

 

The biggest issue overall is that space-based power is a solution in search of a problem. It's not solving an actual unsolved problem that we have.

According to the USA Centre for Climate and Energy solutions " all is not without problems

 

Quote " Obstacles to Further Development and Deployment of Solar Power

Cost

Electricity generated from solar power remains more expensive than other forms of electricity in many places. Moreover, in recent years, the supply of rare earth minerals commonly used for PV manufacturing has become constrained. China supplies 97 percent of the worlds rare earth minerals and has enacted production and export quotas,[41] driving higher the price of rare earth minerals. The uncertain future of the supply of rare earths is a risk to the U.S. PV manufacturing industry,[42] but efforts are underway to develop a domestic supply of rare earth minerals as well as the use of solar technologies that do not use supply-constrained materials.[43] For the time being, rare earth supply has met the growth of solar in demand, and has not been a limiting factor in the price declines of solar power.

Intermittency

Solar power, especially solar PV, is constrained by intermittency issues because of weather factors and the fact that daylight hours are limited. CSP storage technologies are being developed to alleviate intermittency problems, although integrated storage remains costly. Solar power is also constrained by the uneven geographic distribution of solar resources, which ultimately encumbers integration with the larger electric grid. To achieve its full potential, solar power will rely on a variety of advanced enabling technologies such as demand response and improvements in energy storage. Energy storage technologies would allow electricity generated during peak production hours (i.e., on bright, sunny days) to be stored for use during periods of lower or no generation. The National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) has published a series of studies examining whether intermittent renewable including solar are capable of providing up to 80 percent of electricity demand.[44]

Transmission

Solar power, specifically utility-scale PV and CSP, is also held back by a lack of transmission infrastructure (necessary to access solar resources in remote areas, such as deserts, and transport the electricity to end users). These areas often have the highest potential for solar generation.

However, solar technologies offer a number of opportunities for on-site or distributed generation applications in which energy is produced at the point of consumption, including rooftop PV arrays and building-integrated photovoltaic (BIPV) systems. Such systems, known as local PV, can make solar power more cost competitive by avoiding costs associated with transmission and distribution. However, technical problems in regulating the local grid must be solved before local PV reaches its full potential. " unquote

 

 

So other systems are worth investigating along side a well established Solar Panel Industry and supply .

 

Maybe an alternative is good to have in reserve ? Maybe then

 

"Long wave Satellite collection , conversion , and distribution , systems " ,

 

may still have something to offer? In fact I think I have already addressed many of the problems spoken above.

 

Mike

Edited July 29, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

Electricity generated from solar power remains more expensive than other forms of electricity in many places.

 

So you build primarily in placers where it's on par or cheaper than the other forms.

Moreover, in recent years, the supply of rare earth minerals commonly used for PV manufacturing has become constrained.

 

Doesn't seem to be an issue, as the amount of installed solar has been growing exponentially with prices dropping. As the report notes:

For the time being, rare earth supply has met the growth of solar in demand, and has not been a limiting factor in the price declines of solar power.

Solar power, especially solar PV, is constrained by intermittency issues because of weather factors and the fact that daylight hours are limited.

 

You were touting storage for use when demand outstrips supply for your proposal, so if it's viable for your plan, it should be viable for PV solar.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

So .....

 

Doesn't seem to be an issue......

 

 

You were touting storage.....

.

Yes , but ..

 

(A) Think of anybody , anywhere , anytime , having access to small amounts of usable clean electrical energy Free!

............ Just by sticking a quartz crystal attached to a USB connector.

.............Quartz connector. .. Link if you want to see what it could look like :- http://www.scienceforums.net/uploads/monthly_07_2015/post-33514-0-96649600-1437890302.jpg

 

(B) Think of medium power , electrical devices together with electric personalised vehicles swarming the sky's, Free!

 

© Think of no more pylons, yet safe area substation style serious long wave receiving sites for real power, Paid for!

 

Surely SCIENTIFIC UTOPIA

 

 

Mike

 

Ps . The satellite discs here illustrated are out of all proportion for illustration purposes. Possibly being 2 kilometers diameter and taking out only 10 % of sunlight in their immediate path , would be occasionally and non perceptibly noticed from earth . Being only like a passing minute cloud if line of sight to an individual. They would not be noticed . ( unlike illustrative diagram )

 

PPs Although, the diagram may ' look like ' people are being cooked alive, this is purely illustrative . One would surmise that the energy waves being 1/10 th the power of sunlight and the bottom of the electromagnetic spectrum in frequency ( energy is a function of frequency by planks constant ) , that they would be substantially less dangerous than ordinary sunlight. If anything slightly protective ( like putting on ' sun blocking cream ' .)

Edited July 30, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

.

Yes , but ..

 

(A) Think of anybody , anywhere , anytime , having access to small amounts of usable clean electrical energy Free!

 

I have that energy access now. It's called a battery.

 

How is this free? That's whole new mythology for you to explain.

 

(B) Think of medium power , electrical devices together with electric personalised vehicles swarming the sky's, Free!

 

 

Jetsons-like flying cars? They will not work on "medium power" if at all. Another unicorn.

© Think of no more pylons, yet safe area substation style serious long wave receiving sites for real power, Paid for!

 

Surely SCIENTIFIC UTOPIA

 

Paid for by whom? Thus far, this is a science fiction utopia.

One would surmise that the energy waves being 1/10 th the power of sunlight and the bottom of the electromagnetic spectrum in frequency ( energy is a function of frequency by planks constant ) , that they would be substantially less dangerous than ordinary sunlight. If anything slightly protective ( like putting on ' sun blocking cream ' .)

 

"Surmise" does not take the place of scientific analysis.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

A 1 )I have that energy access now. It's called a battery.

 

A) 2 ) How is this free? That's whole new mythology for you to explain.

 

 

B) Jetsons-like flying cars? They will not work on "medium power" if at all. Another unicorn.

 

C) Paid for by whom? Thus far, this is a science fiction utopia.

 

D) "Surmise" does not take the place of scientific analysis.

.

 

 

A 1) Quote "

I have that energy access now. It's called a battery.

Retort

Always running out when it's inconvenient. Expensive .

 

A 2) Quote " How is this free? That's whole new mythology for you to explain.

Retort

Subsidised by charged for Main Heavy ( Home and Industrial and Civil usage ) that are hard wired from receiving sites . These installations are protected areas where large levels of energy are beamed down from the Satellite stations. Fail safe devices protect the public from accidental misalignment and any possible accidental exposure . ( this is more for phycological reasons than actual danger )

 

B) Jetsons-like flying cars? They will not work on "medium power" if at all. Another unicorn.

Retort

This power is still at continuous 100 watts / square meter which can be increased to much higher wattage for acceleration bursts ( using less intense loading periods , as energy saving , as explained previously, and light weight aluminium capacitors. Short term storage only )

Flying craft can be well designed helium or hydrogen pods with gentle horizontal propulsion by efficient electric motors .

 

C) Paid for by whom? As explained by A2 above .

Quote " Thus far, this is a science fiction utopia. " Well maybe a little that way but a good 50 % of science fiction has ultimately become Science Fact . I can remember ' Dan Dare ' in the Eagle Comic much has since become science Fact . Arthur C Clarke , much of what he wrote of in his Science Fiction became Science Fact.

 

D) " surmise " danger . does not take the place of scientific analysis.

Retort

 

Graph of Electro magnetic spectrum

 

 

Mike

Edited July 30, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos