pywakit Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 At the risk of annoying anyone, I would like to weigh in here. Mind? Last winter, when I was discussing my model with Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson ( name thrown in to lend credibility ... lol ... but I actually was ) I made the comment that 'space was infinite'. His response was "It is assumed to be so, but we have no proof." My rebuttal ( roughly ) was "We have Einstein's math, corroborating experiments, and observations. Einstein said space is uniform, unless disturbed by mass. Logically it makes sense that our 'local' universe would exist in curved space because all that mass/gravity is curving it. But why would anyone think that space only exists for the pleasure of our 'local' universe?" He said ... "Because we can't see it. If we can't see it we cannot logically claim it to be fact. But, as I said, most scientists assume it to be so." ( infinite ) So at least Dr. Tyson and I agree in 'opinion'. Lol. But I think we have more than enough evidence to claim infinite space as a reasonable conclusion ... and a good part of a working model of the universe. It seems so clear to me. Space Is Uniform. That means it is 'the same'. Homogenous. Isotropic. I see infinity as a 3 dimensional straight-line grid with all lines extending to infinity. There is no shape, because shape has limits. I was 6 years old when I read this 'space is uniform' thing. I was very curious about the universe, and from what I already knew ... it seemed obvious that the universe would have no end. So Einstein's math just 'confirmed' what I already knew. It was a little distressing when I kept seeing 'the' universe described as a 'curved' finite structure. The very idea that space would simply cease to exist because 'our' local universe wasn't there to 'occupy' it seemed completely irrational. It assumed therefore that our little home was the only universe that has ever existed. That nothing else exists except for 'us'. That when we are gone, nothing will ever exist again. This isn't logic. This is religion. "We are special. We are here for a reason." "Oh really? Says who?" "Uhhhh. Well, 'we' do." "Ohhhhhh. Sure. I get it." Space is uniform. We can twist logic to placate our 300,000 year old ego, but it doesn't change the fact. We have mountains of evidence that space is uniform. Isotropic. None that space ends at our borders ... whether or not we can see it. Within our local universe, our straight lines are an illusion, because gravity is curving space. So to say we can go for infinity in a straight line yet never go beyond the finite bubble is also an illusion. The lines in our local universe aren't 'straight'. They just look straigtht. ( edit ) To take the weakest possible stance we can rationally and logically say ... "Infinite space is inferred, while finite space is not." Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedThousands of years ago, when Man began to seriously contemplate his universe, he wondered how big it was. There were a host of reasons to come to the conclusion that the 'physical universe' ... the one 'he' could see must be finite. Meta-physical? Not so finite. The ego gene was a great survival trait. We could plainly see that we were far superior creatures to all other species. A strong piece of evidence for our 'special' status. But the ego gene has it's drawbacks, too. It clouds reason, and allows us to formulate concepts ... like logic ... that we unconsciously shape to suit our desires. Now, many thousand of years later ... 'science' ( being less than a few hundred years old ) has royally decreed ... that our current scientific methodology is a 'perfect' tool for scientific inquiry. And we have never looked back. Why would we? Look how well it has worked! This logic is flawed, of course. Look how badly it has failed, too. The point I am trying to get across is ... we have never had a good reason to believe we are the only intelligent life in the universe, or that our universe is finite, or the only one. In fact, true logic ... unadulterated by ego ... says that if it's possible for us to exist, then it's equally possible 'we' ( and I do mean we. Exactly the same as us ) could exist other places. That other universes could exist in other places. There never WAS a good, scientific reason to believe that our universe was finite. We looked around us and just 'decreed' that it was. I mean, it had to be. Why else would we be here? There HAS to be a reason. We are so SPECIAL! Just Ego. Lol. When I was a kid, the 'universe was 'closed', like now. It consisted of the MW with around 250M to about 2B stars. There were maybe a 'few thousand' other galaxies, and a few things we couldn't identify. And science took the 'logical' stance that this could be 'all there was'. On the otherhand, there could be all kinds of 'anything is possible' stuff. As the universe threw it's arms open to us, we realized that our thinking was a mite small. And incorrect. Not only was it obviously bigger by several orders of magnitude, but all those 'possibilities' turned out to be non-existent. The universe was essentially the same wherever we looked. Just like it was when we looked 50 years ago ... when anything was possible. And even though we can see 'infinitely' farther than we could before, and found none of these fantastic 'possibilities' ... the mantra remains the same. ANYTHING is possible beyond our field of view. And here is the really amusing hypocrisy. We claim ( chaos theory, Heisenberg principle ) that anything is possible because the math says so. There's a CHANCE. Lol. Our universe has INFINITE possibilities. So all things can happen! Funny. How did you get infinite possibilities from a finite universe? It's past time we change our thinking. It's time to come to the rational conclusion that we exist in a finite, expanding bubble of gravity within a universe that is actually infinite ... until proven to be finite. Not the other way around. Moo, you said this is to be a debate, not a lecture. I hope I am not crossing the line. I just thought making some reasonable observations might be in order. I think all my statements have been truthful and accurate. Could be wrong, though. Lol. Wish I was more eloquent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!Register a new account
Already have an account? Sign in here.Sign In Now