Homeopathy

[Kyrisch]

Homeopathic 'remedies' are comprised of WATER. At normal doses, there is literally no medicine in the medicine. The analogy of a pinch of salt in all of the Atlantic and Pacific oceans is a valid estimate. It is mostly administered in pill form, where a drop of water is placed onto a sugar pill, or pure form, where it is sprayed into the mouth or consumed like syrup. Either way, why does anyone buy into this at all? Further, why do I see it in pharmacies?! I mean, I understand why some people may believe in the stuff (the world would be an amazing place if homeopathy was the craziest thing anyone believed in), but how in the hell is it among normal medicine on the shelves of my local drug store?

[Psycho]

Indeed, I can't really see the point in it but the placebo effect is a better effect than none at all and if you have got to that point is a disease or it makes you feel better in life who is to blame them, it more solves the symptoms of a problem then the underlying cause.

[Kyrisch]

This rant-like post, however, was incited by a commercial on a homeopathic joint pain remedy in the form of a mouth spray which received ridiculous praise from all the testimonials about lifetime pain sufferers whose pain has disappeared. I know the placebo effect can be powerful, but I sensed a bit of dishonesty in the raving reviews. And I'm more curious in why it has bypassed all the testing that other drugs usually need to go through. My guess is that the FDA leaves it alone because it's not dangerous (because it's water!).

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

The FDA leaves it alone because they all have disclaimers saying the FDA hasn't evaluated it. Otherwise the FDA would shut them down -- even if it's harmless stuff, you're preventing people from getting real medication, and that could be harmful in itself.

[swansont]

You'll notice that they tend not to claim they can cure the problem — that would be illegal (in the US at least). What they can do, however, is have testimonials of people saying "I tried this and felt better," or "I've been using it for years and not had a recurrence of my malady." The placebo effect happens often enough that I wouldn't necessarily doubt the sincerity of testimonials.

 

As long as they offer it as a supplement and not a drug, the FDA can only get involved if it is shown to cause harm. Which it can't, because (as you say) it's just water.

[iNow]

Dawkins did a great series covering this called "The Enemies of Reason." Worth the watch (about an hour and a half to view both episodes in their entirety).

 

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=11B4387BEC38F853

[Theophrastus]

I personally have thought homeopathic medicine to simply be the equivalent of herbal medicine. Saying that, as many modern day drugs are comprised of chemicals, such as the various alkaloids, that reside within plants, I'm surprised why these homeopathic infusions and decoctions, are used in place of their pure constituents, attained by a chemical means, however, not all herbal remedies are fake, though if you see no ingredients listed on the bottle, and no proper certifications, you can conclude it is probably worthless, however, as I said, these herbs were once man's only hope against malady, however, these same components are now being synthesised chemically to insure higher concentrations, less impurities, and side effects as a cause of those impurities. For example willow bark was known to relieve pain since the seventh century, however later (I believe in the 1800's) it was found that this effect was due to salicylic acid. However, when purified, it caused digestive problems (and tasted absolutely terrible). As such, it had to be modified, the final product finally taking the form of acetylsalicylic acid, more commonly known as aspirin.

[DrP]

I personally have thought homeopathic medicine to simply be the equivalent of herbal medicine.

 

That's just the point though - they are not. Herbal remedies are made of herbs and actually have some kind of effect in certain situations. Homopathy is a big con - as the OP pointed out - they get diluted so much that you might not even end up with a single molecule of the so-called 'remedy' left in the bottle of water you are taking.

[iNow]

Theo - It's important not to conflate homeopathy and herbal remedies. They are not at all the same thing.

 

You might be interested to hear Prof. Michael Baum discuss this subject passionately. He articulates well the issues with peoples belief in this nonsense.

 

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=13C076E8CE7FCD4D

 

 

 

You know what they call alternative medicine which actually works? ... Medicine.

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Cross-posted with DrP.

[Psycho]

This rant-like post, however, was incited by a commercial on a homeopathic joint pain remedy in the form of a mouth spray which received ridiculous praise from all the testimonials about lifetime pain sufferers whose pain has disappeared.

 

I see, I have never really seen any adverts for it in the UK and therefore presumed you were talking about people who chose it for some life style choice.

 

If the case they are advertising against proper medicine saying or even given the implication that they work better or have a large effect on the quality of life then regulations should really be brought into place and I would guess this is true in the UK as I personally have never seen an advert for any homoeopathic remedies however I maybe wrong.

 

You know what they call alternative medicine which actually works?

Yes but that is only if they can purify it and work out the chemical causing the property they want and someone has bothered to do that in the first place, I think there is value in herbal medicine as it bring ideas to the table most which work but treat symptoms rather than the underlying cause.

[bob000555]

The thing about curing people with life long pain may actually not be bull shit. If the pain was only psychosomatic the placebo effect can be just the thing to cure it. With some hypochondriacesque psychosomatic pain the most important thing is convincing people that the cure will work. There are stories of people with severe chronic pain not being helped by the strongest of pain killers but when their doctor makes miraculous claims and gives them a sugar pill all is well.

 

But all in all homeopathy is bull and the only reason legitimate pharmacies carry it is to make money off the uninformed masses.

[iNow]

I think there is value in herbal medicine as it bring ideas to the table most which work but treat symptoms rather than the underlying cause.

 

As Michael Baum discusses in the link I shared above, that would be called "Complimentary" medicine, not "alternative" medicine.

[GDG]

The thing about curing people with life long pain may actually not be bull shit. If the pain was only psychosomatic the placebo effect can be just the thing to cure it. With some hypochondriacesque psychosomatic pain the most important thing is convincing people that the cure will work. There are stories of people with severe chronic pain not being helped by the strongest of pain killers but when their doctor makes miraculous claims and gives them a sugar pill all is well.

 

But all in all homeopathy is bull and the only reason legitimate pharmacies carry it is to make money off the uninformed masses.

 

Agreed that homeopathy is fraud in the worst sense. The governmental agency that should be involved is not the FDA but the FTC (for fraudulent advertising). Even though the manufacturers state (as they must) that "These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.", the people who buy them clearly believe they are buying an effective drug.

 

As for the placebo effect, this is not limited to psychosomatic ailments. Clinical trials for real drugs must have a control (placebo) group because even patients with real, demonstrable disease can get better just using a placebo.

 

Finally, for a little mind-bending, check out M. Egeth, Med Hypoth (2009) 72(5):606-07

[swansont]

As for the placebo effect, this is not limited to psychosomatic ailments. Clinical trials for real drugs must have a control (placebo) group because even patients with real, demonstrable disease can get better just using a placebo.

 

Or no pill at all — the body does heal itself of many ailments. One of the reasons homeopathy got legs in the first place is that doing nothing was often better than some of the other treatments at the time. The placebo effect was a bonus.

[ecoli]

The FDA leaves it alone because they all have disclaimers saying the FDA hasn't evaluated it. Otherwise the FDA would shut them down -- even if it's harmless stuff, you're preventing people from getting real medication, and that could be harmful in itself.

also, they avoid regulation by classifying their products as a "supplement' rather than "medicine"

[Kaeroll]

I think homeopathy thrives off a trend against intellectualism and authority. This is just a personal observation, I have no other sources to back this up, but I believe we currently live in a society where the 'experts' and those in a position of authority - be it legal, medical, scientific, etc - are mistrusted on principle. The prevalence of conspiracy theories (9/11, HIV, etc) seems to support this.

 

In this country there's been a trend against vaccinations after the MMR controversy. A minority of parents shunned all vaccinations for their kids because "THEY" hadn't researched them properly, or whatever. I think homeopathy buys into this kind of sentiment; "THEY" don't want real, natural remedies like homeopathy to hit the market because it will put THEM out of business. Doesn't matter that a battery of tests show it's ineffective - of course "THEY" would say that!

 

I realise my above point is fairly poorly articulated... it's a thought I'm still sitting on for a while. Responses welcome though.

[iNow]

Makes sense to me. I usually summarize it a bit more coarsely, so you've done a fine job (I tend to say this distrust of vaccinations and evolution and relativity and whatever is an extension of the faith over evidence prioritization which comes with so many indoctrinated worldviews).

[Glider]

Theo - It's important not to conflate homeopathy and herbal remedies. They are not at all the same thing.

 

You know what they call alternative medicine which actually works? ... Medicine.

 

It's like Dara O'Briain notes; "People say 'oh, but herbal medicine has been around for thousands of years', Yes it has, and stuff that's been tested and works we call 'medicine'. The rest is just a nice bowl of soup and some Potpourri!".

[Theophrastus]

Despite claiming to have stated your case poorly, Kaeroll, I find that this is a good point, as it seems that in society, people seem to find some matter of enmity in authority, and those more knowledgeable than themselves. This of course, I can easily back up by the current romantisism of gangsters, and antagonism of authority, in the media. Due to an ill- knowledge populace in various matters, conspiracy theories can be found in many branches. I myself recently heard one of my friends, stating a claim, that they believe that a cure for cancer has already been found, but it is being withheld from the general populace, in an attempt by the medicinal community to make money off of numerous different treatments. (An obvious lie) Scams are just as frequent, including numerous instant weight- loss supplements, and various pseudomedicines. It is, simply put, an assault on reason, in society.

 

Thanks for revising my definition of homeopathic. I particularly like the fact that homeopathic "medicines," take the care to call themselves supplements to avoid testing.

 

One other thing I find interesting is that people believe that herbal medicine has something that ordinary medicine doesn't, to that, I enjoy directing them to the synthesis of urea, which proved that organic compounds, while generally more complex are in fact (contrary to popular belief at the time, and conspiratorial belief today) made of the same atomic matter as inorganic compounds

Edited April 18, 2009 by Theophrastus
adding of a reference

[Kaeroll]

One other thing I find interesting is that people believe that herbal medicine has something that ordinary medicine doesn't, to that, I enjoy directing them to the synthesis of urea, which proved that organic compounds, while generally more complex are in fact (contrary to popular belief at the time, and conspiratorial belief today) made of the same atomic matter as inorganic compounds

That's actually a very nice point. Think I might borrow that one off you.

[stereologist]

I once heard an anecdote that a salesman was giving his homeopathy pitch to a farmer. The sales talks about the dilutions and how the water still holds the essence and power of the drug. The farmer thinks about it for a while and asks the salesman, "Are you telling me that I could fertilize my entire farm with a fart?"

[insane_alien]

I once heard an anecdote that a salesman was giving his homeopathy pitch to a farmer. The sales talks about the dilutions and how the water still holds the essence and power of the drug. The farmer thinks about it for a while and asks the salesman, "Are you telling me that I could fertilize my entire farm with a fart?"

 

anecdote or not it still captures the ridiculousness or homeopathy. although 1 fart/farm still has a higher concentration than homeopathic 'remedies'. 1 fart/universe would be closer to homeopathic concentrations although still a little on the high side.

[GDG]

One other thing I find interesting is that people believe that herbal medicine has something that ordinary medicine doesn't, to that, I enjoy directing them to the synthesis of urea, which proved that organic compounds, while generally more complex are in fact (contrary to popular belief at the time, and conspiratorial belief today) made of the same atomic matter as inorganic compounds

 

Yep. The difference between "vitamin C" and "vitamin C from Rosehips" is ... the label (and probably the price).

 

The only argument for herbal medicine that I'm aware of that is possibly valid has to do with the number of compounds found in the herbs. Medicinal herbs generally contain a variety of different compounds, which (at least in some cases) provide an effect greater than any individual component.

 

The greatest problem, however, is the lack of standardization. The amount of "active compound" in any herbal preparation can vary widely, depending on the strain of the herb and its growing conditions. Think of how differently wine from different vineyards can taste, or even wine from the same vineyard made in different years. Mainly due to the complex compenents in the grapes. Since commercial herbal medicines are "dietary supplements" rather than medicines, there is no legal requirement for them to have anything therapeutic inside, and thus no incentive to develop assays or standards. Better off consulting your local Wiccan

 

Pass the thyme...

[DrP]

The only argument for herbal medicine that I'm aware of that is possibly valid has to do with the number of compounds found in the herbs. Medicinal herbs generally contain a variety of different compounds, which (at least in some cases) provide an effect greater than any individual component.

 

Hi GDC,

Read posts 7, 8 and 9. Herbal medicine isn't in the dock at all. It is Homeopathy that is is being rubbished - not herbal medicine. Homeopathy is a very different thing. Read the thread from the begining.

[John Cuthber]

Did you hear about the homeopath who forgot to take his "medicine"?

He died of an overdose.