MrSandman Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 MrSandman, keep the straw-men and ad hom's to yourself, yeah? Making assumptions about what other people are going to say is pretty rude as well. Did you even look at what this guy was stating or are you a follower of him? Notice that I put "think" not "know in my final statement. I was trying to show him what's wrong with his beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 you would willingly cause the suffering of another being just to gratify yourself for, what, a couple of minutes at the most? wow. Let me ask you a hypthetical. Let's say a wild pig got hit by a car, and was laying on the side of the road in pain. If I go over and shoot it to put it out of it's misery, but then take it home and process it so I can freeze some and eat the rest, am I still wrong for doing so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSandman Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 Hey I wonder if you guys know I'm a Veggie'O'. Just because I think lots of meats are bland. Although turkey I like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDNA Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 Are you completely stupid? Pigs have been found to have the same level of intelligence as a 3 year old child.They can even play video games. So its alright to kill a pig but not a 3 year old child? No matter how much sense your argument makes, I will not eat a 3 year old child. I plead with you not to eat children either. Now, pass the bacon please.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pioneer Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 One possible way to look at food animals; if in nature, in an animal is food for other animals, then nature designed them to be food animals. Maybe nature provided mechanisms to make this role more tolerable. We should not eat preditor animals. These are not food animals within the natural design of things. If one does not eat a food animal, one is trying to alter the natural design of nature. The vegatarians are part correct, in that they eat plants, which are food for other animals. Their dilemna is that the animals, which eat this same food, are food for other animals. They may feel a projected kinship. They would not wish to be food for a preditor, so they empathize. But this empathy does not mean that food animals don't instinctively know their natural role. Cows have been used for food for a long time. Yet they seem to like humans inspite of their tragic role in the food chain. They don't like wolves, and run from them, even though these hardly eat them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap'n Refsmmat Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 Did you even look at what this guy was stating or are you a follower of him? Notice that I put "think" not "know in my final statement. I was trying to show him what's wrong with his beliefs. Your post was indeed rude. I suggest you tone it down a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSandman Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 Ok, I will, but I think he's gone now. I wonder if knows that pigs will kill humans if given the chance. It happens all the time in other countries were the pigs will kill abandoned children. That in itself is enough to want to kill pigs. I also agree with the others. I'm not going to eat a 3 year-old kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefly Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 Ok firstly sandman dude, i have no idea where you came from but please go away. Everything you say is completely ilogical and irrelevant. The only arguement you have is to turn something i said completely the wrong way around and pretend as if i said to eat a 3 year old child is ok when its completely not! You are all completely gross for even suggesting that and completely stupid which shows how lame your arguments are. Your even so stupid you refer to me as a 'he' when i would think it is pretty obvious I am not. I never said not to eat meat! You can do whatever you like. I am only suggesting you think about what you are really eating and that is pain and suffering. If you honestly believe in meat THAT much you think you would create a logical argument. But all you have created is stupidity and the only reason to eat meat being your selfish desires. Oh good job... not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viha Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 Vegetarians are not preventing plants from doing reproduction.they allow them to grow , flower, fruit.And after preserving their seeds only we normally consume.They do not uproot a plant fully (in most cases) and they use only a par of the plant body.consuming eggs (unfertilized) is not cruel but killing a bird which may lay egg in future is cruel.And carnivores dont have a choice they have to kill for their survival but human have some alternatives.so he can avoid killing entire animal instead he can consume egg, milk etc.,so that they can also enjoy their life on earth for some time as we do normally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royston Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 Deleted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 Firefly and Sandman, you both have to calm down and stop the ad hominems. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ In any case, Vegetarians are not preventing plants from doing reproduction.they allow them to grow ' date=' flower, fruit.And after preserving their seeds only we normally consume.They do not uproot a plant fully (in most cases) and they use only a par of the plant body.consuming eggs (unfertilized) is not cruel but killing a bird which may lay egg in future is cruel.And carnivores dont have a choice they have to kill for their survival but human have some alternatives.so he can avoid killing entire animal instead he can consume egg, milk etc.,so that they can also enjoy their life on earth for some time as we do normally. [/quote'] Not really. Any plant matter you eat is going to be killed, and it usually is. And while humans could eat things other than meat, the fact remains that meat is the most efficient fuel source and has the most of the essential proteins. Our brains evolved the way they did because our ancestors ate meat, for example. When people speak of animal cruelty they usually refer to methods by which they are killed, not the killing of the animal itself. And in many cases, especially in countries in which there are no standards, they are often mistreated. Otherwise, there are some "humane" slaughterhouses out there, but its difficult to tell which is which. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Moral issues aside, I like to eat meat. And one day maybe conditions will improve in the slaughterhouses, just keep pressuring them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParanoiA Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 Not to mention Firefly, you accuse MrSandman of not saying anything "logical and relevant" yet you haven't responded to those posts that are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 And one day maybe conditions will improve in the slaughterhouses, just keep pressuring them.... Upton Sinclair? The Jungle? Maybe it's time for part two, The Chamber of Secrets... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Skeptic Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 To all those who say that carnivores must eat meat to survive, but that we have a choice: We are omnivores, which means we have the choice to eat meat or not. Just like any other omnivore. Maybe you should all start the Campaign for Vegetarian Pigs or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovejunkie02 Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 Let me ask you a hypthetical. Let's say a wild pig got hit by a car, and was laying on the side of the road in pain. If I go over and shoot it to put it out of it's misery, but then take it home and process it so I can freeze some and eat the rest, am I still wrong for doing so? um, i guess if you want to eat roadkill, that's up to you. sounds pretty gross to me. you can try to set up various hypothetical questions and situations and try to talk me into a corner, but i'll still say that eating meat causes suffering and we don't have to in order to survive and i wish that more people weren't so selfish. just leave animals alone and let them live their lives with as little human intervention as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDNA Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 I wonder if knows that pigs will kill humans if given the chance. It happens all the time in other countries were the pigs will kill abandoned children. That in itself is enough to want to kill pigs. I also agree with the others. I'm not going to eat a 3 year-old kid. True. Pigs are omnivores and, unlike a 3 year old child, they are not fussy eaters. They will eat just about anything you put in front of them. In that sense, and perhaps others, pigs make better children than real children. How much better behaved would children be it they knew if they didn't clean their plates (for instance) that they would be fed to a hog which would then take their place in the family? It would certainly make the pigs happy which is a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticLance Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 There are no absolutes in this world. Everything has meaning only relative to something else. So the question is : Is killing animals for meat cruel relative to the alternative? Then : What is the alternative? Well, the alternative for a cow or sheep is to be permitted to run wild and be hunted by predators. A wild cow or sheep will have an average lifespan of months, only, due to the very high mortality of calves and lambs. And when they die, do they do so painlessly? No. There is nothing crueller than the way a predator kills its prey. In the best case, it clamps its teeth on the throat of its prey and kills it by strangulation in minutes - long enough for the prey to feel terrible pain, panic and terror . In the worst case, it is a long, protracted hunt, filled with terror for the prey animal, with repeated painful woundings, and the prey finally dragged down to die slowly. On the other hand, a cow or sheep kept by humans as a meat animal is cared for - given good pasture or grain. It receives veterinary attention if sick. It is kept free of anything that might cause it stress (stress affects weight gain and meat quality; thus loss of money - so the farmer tries to prevent it). Finally, after a life that is the cow equivalent of heaven, it is led quietly into a slaughterhouse, and killed instantly and painlessly. Given a choice, if you must be a cow. Which is best? To live the life described above, or one in the wild filled with terror and disease, to be dragged down by a predator at an average age of only a few months? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 um, i guess if you want to eat roadkill, that's up to you. sounds pretty gross to me.you can try to set up various hypothetical questions and situations and try to talk me into a corner, but i'll still say that eating meat causes suffering and we don't have to in order to survive and i wish that more people weren't so selfish. just leave animals alone and let them live their lives with as little human intervention as possible. It doesn't matter how many times you say it. If you don't back it up, it will have no validity. iNow did raise a valid point. So if your trying to convince all us meat eaters otherwise, appeals to emotion/pity and ad hominems will not help you. No. There is nothing crueller than the way a predator kills its prey. In the best case' date=' it clamps its teeth on the throat of its prey and kills it by strangulation in minutes - long enough for the prey to feel terrible pain, panic and terror . In the worst case, it is a long, protracted hunt, filled with terror for the prey animal, with repeated painful woundings, and the prey finally dragged down to die slowly. [/quote'] That really depends on what predator you are talking about. While the above may be true for cats for example, there are some predators that kill their prey instantly. The electric eel comes to mind here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paralith Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 um' date=' i guess if you want to eat roadkill, that's up to you. sounds pretty gross to me. you can try to set up various hypothetical questions and situations and try to talk me into a corner, but i'll still say that eating meat causes suffering and we don't have to in order to survive and i wish that more people weren't so selfish. just leave animals alone and let them live their lives with as little human intervention as possible. [/quote'] It doesn't matter how many times you say it. If you don't back it up, it will have no validity. iNow did raise a valid point. So if your trying to convince all us meat eaters otherwise, appeals to emotion/pity and ad hominems will not help you. I agree. If you're going to condemn something just because it's selfish - well, there are many, many things human beings do that are ultimately for selfish reasons, so that alone is not enough of a counter argument. Especially since, as SkepticLance pointed out nicely, human treatment of food animals can allow them to live a pretty decent life. That really depends on what predator you are talking about. While the above may be true for cats for example, there are some predators that kill their prey instantly. The electric eel comes to mind here. haha, speaking of relativity, how many human food animals would be hunted by electric eels in the wild? realistically speaking, the predators that would hunt cows and pigs and sheep are not likely to give them a quick death. In fact, some would begin to dig in before their prey is actually dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDNA Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 I don't know why, and I apologize that it is somewhat off topic, but every time I look at this thread I immediately get a vision of PETA members "liberating" monkeys and other warm climate animals so that they can slowy feeze to death in the winter. I guess scavangers and maggots have gotta eat too...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 haha, speaking of relativity, how many human food animals would be hunted by electric eels in the wild? Fish? And some of the indigenous people of South America certainly eat some of the animals and food that would be hunted by electric eels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovejunkie02 Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 I agree. If you're going to condemn something just because it's selfish - well, there are many, many things human beings do that are ultimately for selfish reasons, so that alone is not enough of a counter argument. Especially since, as SkepticLance pointed out nicely, human treatment of food animals can allow them to live a pretty decent life. really? sounds like a pretty good argument to me. but then maybe you don't mind being selfish. however, i do not believe that the majority of animals raised for food are treated humanely. they suffer and then they die. i can only speak for myself, but i'd much rather live a free, natural life, even for a few months, than one in a cage or a pen. it's the quality of the lives of the animals that i'm most concerned with, not just the killing of them. It doesn't matter how many times you say it. If you don't back it up, it will have no validity. iNow did raise a valid point. So if your trying to convince all us meat eaters otherwise, appeals to emotion/pity and ad hominems will not help you. back what up with what? my own personal feeings on the matter? just because you don't agree, you just dismiss them? well ok. i'm not sure what kind of "evidence" you're looking for. let me know and i'll see what i can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 really? sounds like a pretty good argument to me. but then maybe you don't mind being selfish. however, i do not believe that the majority of animals raised for food are treated humanely. they suffer and then they die. i can only speak for myself, but i'd much rather live a free, natural life, even for a few months, than one in a cage or a pen. it's the quality of the lives of the animals that i'm most concerned with, not just the killing of them. I told you that you have to justify this. The facts remain that except in maybe some industrial factories, many livestock animals are usually raised in pretty good conditions, better than nature would have them. And what do you know about an animals feelings or freedom. Who are we to say that we know what they think or how they feel? Some people happen to believe that in farms animals die a dignified life. I could argue that by raising them in a farm they have more freedom than they would in nature. And as much as some would like to think otherwise, we are no more selfish than other animals are. Biologically, humans are animals. As much as some people would like to think this to be the case, the truth is there is no way to separate humans from the rest of the natural world. We are as every bit dependent on it and are governed by its laws. back what up with what? my own personal feeings on the matter? just because you don't agree, you just dismiss them? well ok. i'm not sure what kind of "evidence" you're looking for. let me know and i'll see what i can do. Its clear that you don't know how to argue a point. I have no problems with opinions. What I do have a problem with are people who try to force them on other people, and people who think that their opinions are fact. What makes you think your opinion makes you better than anybody else? Because you merely feel better about it? It just won't cut it, and in all honesty the attempt to do so is rather rude and uncalled for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovejunkie02 Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 I told you that you have to justify this. The facts remain that except in maybe some industrial factories, most cattle are usually raised in pretty good conditions, better than nature would have them. you say that and then offer no proof of its truth. and what about the rest of the animals? chickens, turkeys, pigs, etc. And what do you know about an animals feelings or freedom. no more than you do, i suppose. Who are we to say that we know what they think or how they feel? Some people happen to believe that in farms animals die a dignified life. yes, and some people believe god created the world. and some people believe it's ok to have sex with children. and some people believe it's ok to chop other people's heads off. so what? that has no bearing on what i think. I could argue that by raising them in a farm they have more freedom than they would in nature. um, ok. argue it. And as much as some would like to think otherwise, we are no more selfish than other animals are. Biologically, humans are animals. You really have to stop trying to think that humans and animals are separate from nature, because its not true. i'm not sure about selfishness. why don't you enlighten me and give me some examples of how i might be living a selfish life? i'm sure there are some ways (which i probably cannot help), but I don't think that has any bearing on the things that I can help and things that I can willingly choose to do. and I don't know what you're talking about in regards to nature. It just sound like blah blah blah to me because I don't think it relates to anything i said. Its clear that you don't know how to argue a point. I have no problems with opinions. What I do have a problem with are people who try to force them on other people, and people who think that their opinions are fact. What makes you think your opinion makes you better than anybody else? Because you merely feel better about it? It just won't cut it, and in all honesty to attempt to do so is rather rude and uncalled for. did i ever say that my opinion was fact? did i try to force it on you? i don't think i did. I'm just throwin' in my two cents here. Sorry to offend, your highness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticLance Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 I was raised on a dairy farm, and I know damn well that those cows had a pretty good life. We, the farm workers, busted our guts in work to make sure the fields grew thick, juicy green grass for them. We removed any toxic weeds from the fields that might harm them, and carefully planted grass seeds of the varieties that were most nourishing, fertilising the fields to keep it growing well. We fed them hay and silage in winter when the feed was poor, and worked really hard in summer to prepare that hay and silage. Any sick cow, and the vet was called. I often felt that the cows had a better life than we humans did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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