Currently, Switzerland's political system is most close to what I call direct democracy (although, in reality, it still isn't a true direct democracy - I can explain this point later). A referendum is held in the country every three months. Below, I will share what I know about Switzerland. I have 12 points, but for now, I will present five:


1) According to WHO data, Switzerland has a suicide rate of 9.8 per 100,000 people (2019). For comparison, WHO figures show rates of 14.5 for the USA, 21.6 for Russia, and 21.2 for South Korea. It is also worth noting that euthanasia is legal in Switzerland, which implies that suicide is less stigmatized there than in other countries;

2) In a "lost wallet" experiment, the Swiss proved to be the most honest people among those studied: they returned the wallet (without the cash, but with the key) in 73 percent of cases. The Chinese were found to be the least honest, returning the wallet only in 7 percent of cases;


3) According to UN data, the obesity rate in Switzerland is 19.5% (for comparison: 36.2% in the USA, 23.1% in Russia, and 32% in Egypt (2019));

4) Switzerland ranks first in the world for life expectancy for men (81 years) and sixth for women (85 years).

5) According to 2021y data I found online, Switzerland has the smallest shadow economy among 31 European countries (it stands at 5.8% of GDP, compared to 13% in France, 16% in Belgium, 22% in Poland, and 32% in Turkey).

ZZZZzzzzz.......😴

8 hours ago, Linkey said:

Currently, Switzerland's political system is most close to what I call direct democracy

Have you been to Switzerland ?
The place is boooring !!

Every city sits next to a lake, and is kept perfectly clean ( or you get fined ).
Everybody follows all traffic signs and rules ( or you get fined )
Everyone lives in 6-8 unit apartment buildings, and home ownership is among the lowest in Europe ( immigrants weren't even allowed to buy property until 1996 ).
They claim strict neutrality yet are always willing to 'accommodate' whoever is winning at the time for their own gain( repository for vast amounts of WW2 NAZI gold ).
They are only slightly behind the US in gun deaths per year as a percentage of population.
Shall I go on ???

The point is, every country has its good and bad points, and, unless we are talking about the US, the good and bad are not strictly due to its Government.

Disclaimer : My dad worked in Switzerland until I was 9 years old and I saw him a month in the summer, plus Christmas/Easter. He could not move our family to Switzerland, and we could not buy a home there in the late 60s. Canada was much more accommodating, so we came here, where we were together.

Edited September 18Sep 18 by MigL

8 hours ago, Linkey said:

Below, I will share what I know about Switzerland

What would be important is causally connecting these alleged facts (they are unsupported) with their form of government.

Switzerland’s suicide rate, for example, is 128th in the world. Hardly a ringing endorsement, if it’s caused by having referendums. Your cherry-picked examples don’t change this. North Korea has a lower rate. Is that an endorsement of their system of government?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

1 hour ago, swansont said:

North Korea has a lower rate. Is that an endorsement of their system of government?

It's only low in NK because something or someone else usually kills you first. 😁

And it's low in Switzerland because they are, as @MigL alluded to, neurotically law-abiding. If you're Swiss and want to commit suicide you patiently wait until you're very ill and can obtain a doctor's permission.

2 hours ago, MigL said:

Shall I go on ???

Got a job there in an apple factory farm .The boss had a word in our ear not to let on to the other (must have been darker skinned) migrant workers how much we were being paid.

Still I remember the beautiful circling sight of their green fields as I took the plane back from USA to European "civilization" back in the 70s-never to return.

Edited September 18Sep 18 by geordief

This is the issue if one forcefully tries to connect random things without being able to explain the connection.

For example countries with the lowest suicide rates include Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia. Those countries also have the lowest pork consumption. Therefore, we should stop eating pork to reduce suicide rates.

2 hours ago, TheVat said:

It's only low in NK because something or someone else usually kills you first. 😁

And it's low in Switzerland because they are, as @MigL alluded to, neurotically law-abiding. If you're Swiss and want to commit suicide you patiently wait until you're very ill and can obtain a doctor's permission.

I think 128th is not low; it’s not even in the top half of countries, hence the cherry picking comment. There’s no obvious connection to form of government. And your point about NK underscores the lack of nuance here, which I objected to.

So, to be clearer, to the extent you can call the elements of the OP arguments, they are really crappy arguments.

14 hours ago, TheVat said:

neurotically law-abiding

Sounds nice. Probably this is because their laws are more rational, than in other Western countries.

5 hours ago, Linkey said:

Sounds nice. Probably this is because their laws are more rational, than in other Western countries.

Once again, asserted without any support whatsoever

Seems to be a problem.

He's been told certain things, but never thought critically about those thins to establish any cause/effect.

6 hours ago, MigL said:

Seems to be a problem.

He's been told certain things, but never thought critically about those thins to establish any cause/effect.

The real problem is there is no shortage of folks like that...

In all times the autocrats use the following rhetoric to justify their wish to keep their power: "the mob is too stupid" and so on. But the fact is, that "the mob is stupid" only because stupid and drinking people are supported and protected by the power, because they are less interested in politics and lefss often criticize the power. I am absolutely serious and I can find a lot of arguments for this statement, both from history or from my own experience. In Russia, there probably was a phrase by Ekatherine the Great - "drunk nation is more easy to govern". She said this phrase, when she was asked, why the government supports the state alcohol monopoly.

It is interesting, how much alcohol do people in Switzerland drink?

I happen to know some very intelligent 'drunks' who would laugh at that argument.

The term 'populism' was originally coined ( probably 1700s in France ) to describe giving a voice to regular people, instead of the 'elite' having all power.
It has since become a term describing the most common, reactionary, "what's in it for me" ( selfish ) instincts of people who don't, or won't, see the larger picture that Governments need to consider ( for the benefit of everyone ).

Which term are you basing your argument on, and explicitly state your reasoning for it, otherwise, you're just flinging sh*t at the wall to see what sticks.

15 hours ago, Linkey said:

In all times the autocrats use the following rhetoric to justify their wish to keep their power: "the mob is too stupid" and so on. But the fact is, that "the mob is stupid" only because stupid and drinking people are supported and protected by the power, because they are less interested in politics and lefss often criticize the power. I am absolutely serious and I can find a lot of arguments for this statement, both from history or from my own experience. In Russia, there probably was a phrase by Ekatherine the Great - "drunk nation is more easy to govern". She said this phrase, when she was asked, why the government supports the state alcohol monopoly.

This doesn’t seem to have anything to do with the topic.

15 hours ago, Linkey said:

It is interesting, how much alcohol do people in Switzerland drink?

Are you too lazy to look this up, or just not capable of doing so?

I suppose, I need to provide all necessary proofs for the data I write in this thread:

 1)

https://smw.ch/index.php/smw/article/download/3279/5517?inline=1

 

With 9.8 suicides per 100,000 inhabitants in 2019, the suicide rate in Switzerland is just below the European average. But Switzerland is unusual with regard to the method of suicide: 33.6% of male suicides in Switzerland are conducted with firearms (as compared with 9.7% in the rest of Europe [34]). The likely reason for this discrepancy is the easy access to guns for Swiss men.

 

2)

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/sci-tech/science_study-if-you-lose-your-wallet-make-sure-it-s-full-of-money/45045456?

 

Of the countries surveyed, Denmark was the most upstanding: 82% of finders handed in the high-value wallets. Switzerland also ranked highly and was notable for not distinguishing heavily between the different cash values; from zero to high, wallets were in general handed in between 73% and 78% of the time.

Countries including China, Peru, Kazakhstan and Kenya propped up the list – in these places, wallets were returned between 8% and 22% of the time.

  

3)

https://geofactbook.com/countries/switzerland/obesity-adult-prevalence-rate

https://geofactbook.com/fact/obesity-adult-prevalence-rate/2025

 

 4)

https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/che/switzerland/life-expectancy

 

5)

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2022/734007/IPOL_STU%282022%29734007_EN.pdf?

 

 The results presented in table 2.2 show the development of the shadow economy of three Non-EU

European, but OECD countries, from 2003 to 2022. As for the 27 EU countries plus the UK, the shadow

economy as a percentage of GDP sharply increased between 2019 (10.8%) and 2020 (11.62%) in

Norway, in Switzerland from 5.5% to 6.1% for the same period, and in Turkey from 29.4% to 32.54% for

the same years.

3 hours ago, Linkey said:

I suppose, I need to provide all necessary proofs for the data I write in this thread

And also explain how these facts support your thesis. e.g. the Swiss having a slightly better-than-European-average suicide rate is a fact, but you’ve made zero connection to the form of government. The fact that the difference is small suggests that any possible effect is also small, and there are many other cultural effects that you’ve not mentioned that would impact the behaviors you’ve mentioned.

Swiss cheese has one of the lowest lactose levels of any cheese. This means the Swiss have better digestion, which causes them to be kinder and turn in wallets. PROVE ME WRONG!!!

9 hours ago, Linkey said:

I suppose, I need to provide all necessary proofs for the data I write in this thread:

 1)

https://smw.ch/index.php/smw/article/download/3279/5517?inline=1

 

 

2)

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/sci-tech/science_study-if-you-lose-your-wallet-make-sure-it-s-full-of-money/45045456?

 

  

3)

https://geofactbook.com/countries/switzerland/obesity-adult-prevalence-rate

https://geofactbook.com/fact/obesity-adult-prevalence-rate/2025

 

 4)

https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/che/switzerland/life-expectancy

 

5)

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2022/734007/IPOL_STU%282022%29734007_EN.pdf?

 

The point is not only to list up facts but you also need the evidence connecting those facts to your argument, as @swansont pointed out repeatedly. Take just any one of your argument and show the evidence that they are linked to direct democracy.

To be clear, in order to make that argument you would need to find a mechanistic link, e.g. some clear path between direct democracy and suicide or at least a correlation. E.g. you could plot suicide rates vs governmental system. The issue is that even a very cursory reading of the data you provide almost immediately invalidate your argument. If you think direct democracy is a driver for lower suicide rates, why is it that some countries with the lowest suicide rates are not democracies at all?

Or even if we stay in the European context, why do other European countries without direct democracies like Ireland, UK, Romania and Slovakia have lower suicide rates or similar suicide rates?

I.e. you cannot just look at one data point and then create a whole story from there without any evidence to substantiate that connection. Otherwise, as @TheVat demonstrated you can just take any random curiosity and make your story from there. E.g., I could claim that in Switzerland direct democracy is caused by being landlocked at high elevation. The evidence? It's average elevation is 1,350meters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_elevation

If that argument makes sense to you, I am afraid there is little to discuss.

4 minutes ago, CharonY said:

If that argument makes sense to you, I am afraid there is little to discuss.

But it does make sense, doesn't it? I went to Switzerland once, took a wrong turn, and quickly found myself travelling on a ski bob at 40+ mph downhill through a pine forest. If you live somewhere like that, I think you're likely to value life more highly than many.

15 hours ago, CharonY said:

Or even if we stay in the European context, why do other European countries without direct democracies like Ireland, UK, Romania and Slovakia have lower suicide rates or similar suicide rates?

I will provide you more arguments some time later. The more arguments, the better. Currently the best of my arguments is that the shadow economy in Switzerland is much smaller than in other Western countries, as some people here confirmed. And speaking of Ireland and UK, I know that the alcohol consumption is very high in these countries, that's enough as an argument for me.

3 minutes ago, Linkey said:

I will provide you more arguments some time later. The more arguments, the better. Currently the best of my arguments is that the shadow economy in Switzerland is much smaller than in other Western countries, as some people here confirmed. And speaking of Ireland and UK, I know that the alcohol consumption is very high in these countries, that's enough as an argument for me.

Not only that, they drive on the left. That settles it, surely.

🤪🫖🙃🤡

I live in Switzerland since about 30 years, and I can confirm that especially outside big cities, normal people are pretty honest and friendly. And yes, my wife once lost here wallet in a small wood, and she got it back, including the money. Spicy detail: it was found by a Portugese child, so an immigrant. (Maybe Portugese are as honest as Swiss?)

But in politics and trade you will find about the same level of dishonesty as in most Western-European countries. Take e.g. the F-35 scandal.

Then lot of referenda are not executed as they were intended (e.g. about secondary (holiday) homes, or referenda overruled years later by our government, even by decree. (Obviously our rightwing secretaries of state were looking on how Trump does this. E.g. we had a successful referendum, forbidding building nuclear power plants (this was shortly after the Fukushima incident). Now the secretary of state has lifted the ban, on decree.

So, no, Switzerland is not a political paradise, and many people feel confined in too many rules and regulations. Sure many of these are good, but others are absurd, or too detailed; not rational at all.

One thing however I want to mention as a (mostly) positive point. We have 7 secretaries of state, and all bigger parties (from rightwing to socialist) that together form the government (Bundesrat). So very often compromises are already starting there, even before new laws are coming into parliament (Nationalrat).

For general information about Linkey: he posts the exact same texts in Civicswatch. Just under another nickname (Spathi).

And I agree with @MigL that this seems to be less and less a science forum. It is interesting to see that the physics forum does not allow for political discussions, but obviously some members would like discussing politics: Civicswatch is an 'off-spring' of the physics forum; a lot of the CW members are also on PF.

So just as a wild idea (I am not sure if it is a good idea myself): why not close the politics forum here, and refer to CW.