I’m not talking about describing everyone’s future based on their date of birth, but can certain types of numerology make you think twice if it’s legitimate?

I mean are they wrong to look for mathematical patterns in everything? The same as we were trained to do.

Here is my example:

The NCAA Tournament bracket is impossible to predict every game. So let’s say the numerology way would have the same statistical chance as traditional maths team rankings.

So let’s say the numerologists says they will take the player’s jersey numbers and determine the points scored by some complex assignment of winning potential versus the opposing team’s numbers.

The traditional mathematician says that’s BS and says I’ll take each player’s jersey numbers and computer their average scoring by how long each jersey number stays in the game.

Who wins the prediction? Are both approaches based on science? And is it so complex we can’t prove anything?

6 hours ago, Trurl said:

I’m not talking about describing everyone’s future based on their date of birth, but can certain types of numerology make you think twice if it’s legitimate?

I mean are they wrong to look for mathematical patterns in everything? The same as we were trained to do.

Here is my example:

The NCAA Tournament bracket is impossible to predict every game. So let’s say the numerology way would have the same statistical chance as traditional maths team rankings.

So let’s say the numerologists says they will take the player’s jersey numbers and determine the points scored by some complex assignment of winning potential versus the opposing team’s numbers.

The traditional mathematician says that’s BS and says I’ll take each player’s jersey numbers and computer their average scoring by how long each jersey number stays in the game.

Who wins the prediction? Are both approaches based on science? And is it so complex we can’t prove anything?

This seems on the face of it to be a silly question. Numerology is quite obviously not science.

Why would what , at best, is a pervesion of standard mathematics be a part of standard mathematics?

7 hours ago, Trurl said:

I’m not talking about describing everyone’s future based on their date of birth, but can certain types of numerology make you think twice if it’s legitimate?

I mean are they wrong to look for mathematical patterns in everything? The same as we were trained to do.

Here is my example:

The NCAA Tournament bracket is impossible to predict every game. So let’s say the numerology way would have the same statistical chance as traditional maths team rankings.

So let’s say the numerologists says they will take the player’s jersey numbers and determine the points scored by some complex assignment of winning potential versus the opposing team’s numbers.

The traditional mathematician says that’s BS and says I’ll take each player’s jersey numbers and computer their average scoring by how long each jersey number stays in the game.

Who wins the prediction? Are both approaches based on science? And is it so complex we can’t prove anything?

The roots of numerology come from ancient history, rather than victorian party tricks.

If you want to look up serious scientific investigation you need to look in a history book, not a mathematics one.

Try this one, originally in French, but translated into English by Princeton professors.
You will find the roots in ancient history of Sumeria, India, South America, Greece amongst others.
I stress it is neither a mathematics book nor a numerology books, just records what is known or hypothesised historically, including secret codes hidden in ancient religous texts.
But Ifrah was a maths teacher.

Let me know if you want more detail.

Edited May 12May 12 by studiot

Science, as we know it, is deeply rooted in causality.
Unless you can establish a cause for an effect, you are just describing patterns.
Mind you, sometimes those numerological patterns may turn out to hold true, but that is not science; it is, at best, guesswork, and at worst, bullsh*t.

15 hours ago, Trurl said:

So let’s say the numerologists says they will take the player’s jersey numbers and determine the points scored by some complex assignment of winning potential versus the opposing team’s numbers.

You know how jersey numbers are assigned?

Players in the National Football League (NFL) wear uniform numbers between 0 and 99, with no two players on a team able to wear the same number outside of the offseason. Rules exist which tie a player's number to a specific range of numbers for their primary position. Additionally, rules exist which limit who may handle the ball on offense: generally players who are designated as offensive linemen, who wear numbers 50–79, are not allowed to handle the ball during a play from scrimmage, though they are allowed to do so if they report to the referee as playing out of position for a tackle-eligible play, if they pick up a fumble, or if they catch a deflected pass. The NFL's system, while having become more lenient since 2021, remains more rigid than other levels of football, which outside of offensive lineman wearing 50–79 are generally nonrestricted, especially on defense.

(From:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_uniform_numbers )

I don't see where any mystical quality of numbers (i.e. numerology) would enter into this.

6 hours ago, TheVat said:

I don't see where any mystical quality of numbers (i.e. numerology) would enter into this.

Well I saw an advertisement for a story on the news for sports analytics. I did not see it. But it showed simulations of football, much like the Madden football video game. But the again with the Ai are following each individual player for their path across the field on every play.

Is such processing useful? Is it looking for patterns that aren’t? It has turned computational mathematics in numerology.

But I am not convinced that numerology is completely merit less. I know the science community doesn’t accept it. But how do you differentiate it from a pattern we find in a mathematical series? We need a group consensus that other mathematicians also see it. It is based on rules that came before. But how are new rules found?

I am not trying to convince you that patterns of events are a pattern will occur on a certain date or your birthday determines certain events. I’m just debating if there is some events that numerology explains or if it could be useful to find new patterns.

In a pure scientific sense and not religious, Ai is a search for a pattern in every thing. Using numerology to find patterns could be purely scientific. Yes I don’t expect you to agree. But that is all a part of the debate.

BTW my NCAA example is for basketball. Football is less dependent on single superstars. But do you think a computer could ever totally analyze football? I like what my local sports caster say that stats are good on paper but to learn the outcome you have to play the game.

But do you agree that if analysis could predict everything it would ruin the game?

I think you're not very clear on what numerology even is.

Possibly this is an effect of your posts in forums such as this. It's common for math related, um, musings, to be called "numerology" in forums.

It might help to think of the question "what is alternative medicine called if it's proven to work?" The answer is "medicine".

In other words, if you have an example of (suspected) numerology, that actually "works" in some provable way, you'd maybe just have actual math (of some type; statistics probably).

Also, watch the 2011 movie "Moneyball".

Edited May 13May 13 by pzkpfw

7 hours ago, Trurl said:

Is such processing useful? Is it looking for patterns that aren’t? It has turned computational mathematics in numerology.

But the patterns are tied to physical processes; as MigL noted, it’s rooted in causality. Finding the pattern can possibly lead to seeing what the underlying physical process is. Numerology has no such connection - it’s assigning meaning based on superstition or belief. Horoscopes based on numerical values.

8 hours ago, Trurl said:

Well I saw an advertisement for a story on the news for sports analytics. I did not see it. But it showed simulations of football, much like the Madden football video game. But the again with the Ai are following each individual player for their path across the field on every play.

Is such processing useful? Is it looking for patterns that aren’t? It has turned computational mathematics in numerology.

But I am not convinced that numerology is completely merit less. I know the science community doesn’t accept it. But how do you differentiate it from a pattern we find in a mathematical series? We need a group consensus that other mathematicians also see it. It is based on rules that came before. But how are new rules found?

I am not trying to convince you that patterns of events are a pattern will occur on a certain date or your birthday determines certain events. I’m just debating if there is some events that numerology explains or if it could be useful to find new patterns.

In a pure scientific sense and not religious, Ai is a search for a pattern in every thing. Using numerology to find patterns could be purely scientific. Yes I don’t expect you to agree. But that is all a part of the debate.

BTW my NCAA example is for basketball. Football is less dependent on single superstars. But do you think a computer could ever totally analyze football? I like what my local sports caster say that stats are good on paper but to learn the outcome you have to play the game.

But do you agree that if analysis could predict everything it would ruin the game?

Yes I think @pzkpfw makes a relevant point. Looking for patterns in numerical data is not in itself numerology. Numerology consists in ascribing a non-scientific cause to any patterns that may be perceived. So it is not science, by definition.

If you merely identify what seems to you a pattern, without ascribing a cause, you leave it open to others to determine if the pattern is indeed really there, if it is significant and if so to propose causes.

10 hours ago, pzkpfw said:

In other words, if you have an example of (suspected) numerology, that actually "works" in some provable way, you'd maybe just have actual math (of some type; statistics probably).

This was the answer I started typing up, until I saw yours. Yes, statistically meaningful correlations, measuring actual relevant values (like yards rushed in football) and so on....are not numerology. Numerology is analysis like "I was born on 9/18/55, therefore my number is 82 and that means blah blah blah...." IOW, gibberish.

It is disappointing that more don't see through the 'numerology' promoted by the shamans of the subject.

This stuff is no more or less than the showmanship offered and used by religeous and political leaders throughout history.

I'm pretty sure the OP specifically said he did not mean that stuff, but was asking a serious question.

Meanwhile ordinary folks in all sorts of walks of life user numbers all the time for all sorts of purposes , from musicians to visual artists to engineers, technologists, scientists geographers and many many more.

Noe of this is numerology.

BUT

Thousands of years ago some thinkers noticed that

1 + 2 =/ 1 x 2 and 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 =/ 1 x 2 x 3 x 4

yet 1 + 2 + 3 = 1 x 2 x 3

This sort of accidental coincidence led to the only practical use of numerology in early cryptology.

All the rest is promotional sham.

This is what I understood by 'numerology':

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/numerology?q=numerology

No cause and effect, no reasonable connection, no definitions, propositions, lemmas, theorems and corolaries. No (A) implies (B), (A) if and only if (B), no principle of induction, no demonstration...

Nothing of that.

'Reading' the entrails of animals is no part of zoology or anatomy either.

On 5/13/2026 at 7:31 PM, joigus said:

definitions, propositions, lemmas, theorems and corolaries. No (A) implies (B), (A) if and only if (B), no principle of induction, no demonstration...

Numerology is the ancient esoteric belief that numbers carry energetic vibrations capable of revealing your personality, life path, and destiny. By calculating specific digits from your birth date and name, you can uncover a personal "blueprint" for self-discovery and life planning. [1, 2, 3]

I agree from a logical sense predicting actions from words doesn’t seem possible. But again we are trying to explain everything else by numbers. Ten digits on hands; base ten. Humans are basically similar why wouldn’t there be numbers that describe us.

On 5/13/2026 at 6:27 PM, studiot said:

It is disappointing that more don't see through the 'numerology' promoted by the shamans of the subject.

This stuff is no more or less than the showmanship offered and used by religeous and political leaders throughout history.

I'm pretty sure the OP

BUT

Thousands of years ago some thinkers noticed that

1 + 2 =/ 1 x 2 and 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 =/ 1 x 2 x 3 x 4

yet 1 + 2 + 3 = 1 x 2 x 3

This sort of accidental coincidence led to the only practical use of numerology in early cryptology.

All the rest is promotional sham.

Crypto was going to be my next example. But what about handwriting analysis? It is a science based on something that relates an action to personality.

My own definition of numerology is to use math where traditional math could not express a logical, traditional pattern. One definition on the web defined as “meanings in numbers.”

I have run into numerology before a couple of years ago when I got an email from someone who saw my semiPrime factoring work. I was not doing numerology, but this person had computer algorithms drawing relationships. I didn’t know how it worked but it seemed convincing by the fact the where similarities in numbers produced but no way of telling what they exactly meant.

And then there is Stanislaw Lem. In The Futurelogical Congress , Lem describes present day scientists studying what new words will be in the future in order to predict the future.

On 5/13/2026 at 6:38 AM, exchemist said:

Yes I think @pzkpfw makes a relevant point. Looking for patterns in numerical data is not in itself numerology. Numerology consists in ascribing a non-scientific cause to any patterns that may be perceived. So it is not science, by definition.

But what if it’s a survey? Say determining the career most suitable for an individual. Psychology is a science but the fact that it may or may not be correct even if it is based on statistics. These stats are based on similarities of peoples interests. But I see it as an evolution of numerology.

or

Psychology telling personality by measuring the head?

On 5/13/2026 at 6:16 AM, swansont said:

But the patterns are tied to physical processes; as MigL noted, it’s rooted in causality. Finding the pattern can possibly lead to seeing what the underlying physical process is. Numerology has no such connection - it’s assigning meaning based on superstition or belief. Horoscopes based on numerical values.

But when the pattern is still unknown, still a mystery, does it still tie to a physical process?

But even as scientists would you say that numbers without scientific meaning are always invalid?

There is a proof in math that proves there is a significance to every number.

4 hours ago, Trurl said:

But what if it’s a survey? Say determining the career most suitable for an individual. Psychology is a science but the fact that it may or may not be correct even if it is based on statistics. These stats are based on similarities of peoples interests. But I see it as an evolution of numerology.

or

Psychology telling personality by measuring the head?

There is a proof in math that proves there is a significance to every number.

How can a survey be numerology? A survey obtains information about the subjects surveyed. This may be qualitative or quantitative. If quantitative, the results may be subjected to statistical analysis. That isn't numerology.

Attempting to determine the psychology of individuals by measuring their heads is an old pseudoscience from 2 centuries ago, known as phrenology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology

That isn't numerology either.

8 hours ago, Trurl said:

why wouldn’t there be numbers that describe us.

Describe they do. The question is whether they do it correctly, with some actual correlation between them and the event and features they purport to describe. They don't.

By calculating specific digits from your birth date and name, you can uncover a personal "blueprint" for self-discovery and life planning

You see the problem here? Dates have arbitrary aspects. Even if positing that me being born 180 days past the vernal equinox had some causal meaning like "end of summer babies show certain traits," that doesn't connect to any casual role in reducing that number to a numerological essence (9, in this example). And the calendar system is even more detached from any intrinsic metric, since the year begins on January 1, an arbitrary point, and months are also somewhat arbitrary. Also the year designated, let's say 1955, is arbitrary wrt nature. September 18, 1955 (not my exact birthday, for online security reasons) reduces to 2, in numerology. Meaningless. I can get any number by switching calendar systems.

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

and months are also somewhat arbitrary.

Absolutely. There's nothing in a year that's not to do with this part of the galaxy. But there's much in a month that is to do with being Babilonian.

There is causality, where a cause leads directly to the effect in question.
There are correlations, where the effect in question is indirectly, or loosely associated with a particular cause.
And there are WAGs, where no relationship can be established or ascertained.

Depending on your definition of 'numerology', one may be able to shoehorn it into the correlation category, but according to my definition, it definitely belongs in the WAG category.

3 hours ago, MigL said:

There is causality, where a cause leads directly to the effect in question.

I like the statement

"The result of a die roll is random in the sense of lacking predictability, not lacking cause."

On 5/15/2026 at 12:08 AM, Trurl said:

But when the pattern is still unknown, still a mystery, does it still tie to a physical process?

But even as scientists would you say that numbers without scientific meaning are always invalid?

There is a proof in math that proves there is a significance to every number.

If there’s a physical process it’s there whether we understand it or not. Water boiled at 100C before we understood thermodynamics.

12 hours ago, swansont said:

If there’s a physical process it’s there whether we understand it or not. Water boiled at 100C before we understood thermodynamics

Wait a minute, I thought we set water at 100C for the fact that is were water boiled? The temperature system is defined by the scale we set.

I’m just questioning when scientists set these scales does it resemble numerology? Yes the scale is usually based on something tangible, but why wouldn’t we have patterns in the intangible?

It reminds me of Dungeons and Dragons. Skills are assigned a number and there is a dice roll. These mathematical machines produce actions that no math could explain. I mean the results are quantifiable but it works.

On 5/15/2026 at 3:25 PM, MigL said:

There is causality, where a cause leads directly to the effect in question.
There are correlations, where the effect in question is indirectly, or loosely associated with a particular cause.
And there are WAGs, where no relationship can be established or ascertained.

Depending on your definition of 'numerology', one may be able to shoehorn it into the correlation category, but according to my definition, it definitely belongs in the WAG category.

What happens when WAGs produce patterns?

I’m not saying there are patterns to everyone future. But I don’t rule it out. Because with a calendar may or not be arbitrary but it is a system man created so how can we rule out patterns we can’t see? And a calendar may very well have patterns because it is not arbitrary. It is based on the sun.

On 5/15/2026 at 4:50 AM, exchemist said:

How can a survey be numerology? A survey obtains information about the subjects surveyed. This may be qualitative or quantitative. If quantitative, the results may be subjected to statistical analysis. That isn't numerology.

To me the survey falls under D&D. That is assigning a result that isn’t a computational pattern. MigL calls them WAGs, but it is arguably close to numerology.

My point is that we are doing it very often when trying to find new patterns. We just call it the function of f at x on the number line. I know numerology sounds illogical but what patterns can’t we see because we think it’s not scientific?

6 hours ago, Trurl said:

Wait a minute, I thought we set water at 100C for the fact that is were water boiled? The temperature system is defined by the scale we set.

I’m just questioning when scientists set these scales does it resemble numerology? Yes the scale is usually based on something tangible, but why wouldn’t we have patterns in the intangible?

It reminds me of Dungeons and Dragons. Skills are assigned a number and there is a dice roll. These mathematical machines produce actions that no math could explain. I mean the results are quantifiable but it works.

What happens when WAGs produce patterns?

I’m not saying there are patterns to everyone future. But I don’t rule it out. Because with a calendar may or not be arbitrary but it is a system man created so how can we rule out patterns we can’t see? And a calendar may very well have patterns because it is not arbitrary. It is based on the sun.

To me the survey falls under D&D. That is assigning a result that isn’t a computational pattern. MigL calls them WAGs, but it is arguably close to numerology.

My point is that we are doing it very often when trying to find new patterns. We just call it the function of f at x on the number line. I know numerology sounds illogical but what patterns can’t we see because we think it’s not scientific?

You continue to miss the point. Merely looking for patterns in numerical data is NOT numerology. Statisticians do this all the time.

Numerology is assigning mystical, occult or otherwise unscientifically based explanations to whatever patterns you perceive in these numbers.

Nobody “rules out patterns we cannot see”, as you put it. Apparent correlations in data are a signpost for further investigation, to see if there is some mechanism responsible.

But what science will not do is imagine explanations for perceived patterns without reproducible evidence.

Edited Sunday at 08:08 AM2 days by exchemist

10 hours ago, Trurl said:

Wait a minute, I thought we set water at 100C for the fact that is were water boiled? The temperature system is defined by the scale we set.

Yes, but that’s beside the point. Water’s behavior (or any other aspect of nature) is not defined by our knowledge of it.

10 hours ago, Trurl said:

I’m just questioning when scientists set these scales does it resemble numerology? Yes the scale is usually based on something tangible, but why wouldn’t we have patterns in the intangible?

No, it does not.

10 hours ago, Trurl said:

It reminds me of Dungeons and Dragons. Skills are assigned a number and there is a dice roll. These mathematical machines produce actions that no math could explain. I mean the results are quantifiable but it works.

Assigning the meaning of numbers is extrinsic. Rolling an 18 with 3d6 is the best value for a skill, but you could just as easily say 3 is best. Numerology claims the meaning is inherent in the number and in nature.