I’m not talking about describing everyone’s future based on their date of birth, but can certain types of numerology make you think twice if it’s legitimate?

I mean are they wrong to look for mathematical patterns in everything? The same as we were trained to do.

Here is my example:

The NCAA Tournament bracket is impossible to predict every game. So let’s say the numerology way would have the same statistical chance as traditional maths team rankings.

So let’s say the numerologists says they will take the player’s jersey numbers and determine the points scored by some complex assignment of winning potential versus the opposing team’s numbers.

The traditional mathematician says that’s BS and says I’ll take each player’s jersey numbers and computer their average scoring by how long each jersey number stays in the game.

Who wins the prediction? Are both approaches based on science? And is it so complex we can’t prove anything?

6 hours ago, Trurl said:

I’m not talking about describing everyone’s future based on their date of birth, but can certain types of numerology make you think twice if it’s legitimate?

I mean are they wrong to look for mathematical patterns in everything? The same as we were trained to do.

Here is my example:

The NCAA Tournament bracket is impossible to predict every game. So let’s say the numerology way would have the same statistical chance as traditional maths team rankings.

So let’s say the numerologists says they will take the player’s jersey numbers and determine the points scored by some complex assignment of winning potential versus the opposing team’s numbers.

The traditional mathematician says that’s BS and says I’ll take each player’s jersey numbers and computer their average scoring by how long each jersey number stays in the game.

Who wins the prediction? Are both approaches based on science? And is it so complex we can’t prove anything?

This seems on the face of it to be a silly question. Numerology is quite obviously not science.

Why would what , at best, is a pervesion of standard mathematics be a part of standard mathematics?

7 hours ago, Trurl said:

I’m not talking about describing everyone’s future based on their date of birth, but can certain types of numerology make you think twice if it’s legitimate?

I mean are they wrong to look for mathematical patterns in everything? The same as we were trained to do.

Here is my example:

The NCAA Tournament bracket is impossible to predict every game. So let’s say the numerology way would have the same statistical chance as traditional maths team rankings.

So let’s say the numerologists says they will take the player’s jersey numbers and determine the points scored by some complex assignment of winning potential versus the opposing team’s numbers.

The traditional mathematician says that’s BS and says I’ll take each player’s jersey numbers and computer their average scoring by how long each jersey number stays in the game.

Who wins the prediction? Are both approaches based on science? And is it so complex we can’t prove anything?

The roots of numerology come from ancient history, rather than victorian party tricks.

If you want to look up serious scientific investigation you need to look in a history book, not a mathematics one.

Try this one, originally in French, but translated into English by Princeton professors.
You will find the roots in ancient history of Sumeria, India, South America, Greece amongst others.
I stress it is neither a mathematics book nor a numerology books, just records what is known or hypothesised historically, including secret codes hidden in ancient religous texts.
But Ifrah was a maths teacher.

Let me know if you want more detail.

Edited Tuesday at 11:24 AM1 day by studiot

Science, as we know it, is deeply rooted in causality.
Unless you can establish a cause for an effect, you are just describing patterns.
Mind you, sometimes those numerological patterns may turn out to hold true, but that is not science; it is, at best, guesswork, and at worst, bullsh*t.

15 hours ago, Trurl said:

So let’s say the numerologists says they will take the player’s jersey numbers and determine the points scored by some complex assignment of winning potential versus the opposing team’s numbers.

You know how jersey numbers are assigned?

Players in the National Football League (NFL) wear uniform numbers between 0 and 99, with no two players on a team able to wear the same number outside of the offseason. Rules exist which tie a player's number to a specific range of numbers for their primary position. Additionally, rules exist which limit who may handle the ball on offense: generally players who are designated as offensive linemen, who wear numbers 50–79, are not allowed to handle the ball during a play from scrimmage, though they are allowed to do so if they report to the referee as playing out of position for a tackle-eligible play, if they pick up a fumble, or if they catch a deflected pass. The NFL's system, while having become more lenient since 2021, remains more rigid than other levels of football, which outside of offensive lineman wearing 50–79 are generally nonrestricted, especially on defense.

(From:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_uniform_numbers )

I don't see where any mystical quality of numbers (i.e. numerology) would enter into this.

6 hours ago, TheVat said:

I don't see where any mystical quality of numbers (i.e. numerology) would enter into this.

Well I saw an advertisement for a story on the news for sports analytics. I did not see it. But it showed simulations of football, much like the Madden football video game. But the again with the Ai are following each individual player for their path across the field on every play.

Is such processing useful? Is it looking for patterns that aren’t? It has turned computational mathematics in numerology.

But I am not convinced that numerology is completely merit less. I know the science community doesn’t accept it. But how do you differentiate it from a pattern we find in a mathematical series? We need a group consensus that other mathematicians also see it. It is based on rules that came before. But how are new rules found?

I am not trying to convince you that patterns of events are a pattern will occur on a certain date or your birthday determines certain events. I’m just debating if there is some events that numerology explains or if it could be useful to find new patterns.

In a pure scientific sense and not religious, Ai is a search for a pattern in every thing. Using numerology to find patterns could be purely scientific. Yes I don’t expect you to agree. But that is all a part of the debate.

BTW my NCAA example is for basketball. Football is less dependent on single superstars. But do you think a computer could ever totally analyze football? I like what my local sports caster say that stats are good on paper but to learn the outcome you have to play the game.

But do you agree that if analysis could predict everything it would ruin the game?

I think you're not very clear on what numerology even is.

Possibly this is an effect of your posts in forums such as this. It's common for math related, um, musings, to be called "numerology" in forums.

It might help to think of the question "what is alternative medicine called if it's proven to work?" The answer is "medicine".

In other words, if you have an example of (suspected) numerology, that actually "works" in some provable way, you'd maybe just have actual math (of some type; statistics probably).

Also, watch the 2011 movie "Moneyball".

Edited 22 hours ago22 hr by pzkpfw

7 hours ago, Trurl said:

Is such processing useful? Is it looking for patterns that aren’t? It has turned computational mathematics in numerology.

But the patterns are tied to physical processes; as MigL noted, it’s rooted in causality. Finding the pattern can possibly lead to seeing what the underlying physical process is. Numerology has no such connection - it’s assigning meaning based on superstition or belief. Horoscopes based on numerical values.

8 hours ago, Trurl said:

Well I saw an advertisement for a story on the news for sports analytics. I did not see it. But it showed simulations of football, much like the Madden football video game. But the again with the Ai are following each individual player for their path across the field on every play.

Is such processing useful? Is it looking for patterns that aren’t? It has turned computational mathematics in numerology.

But I am not convinced that numerology is completely merit less. I know the science community doesn’t accept it. But how do you differentiate it from a pattern we find in a mathematical series? We need a group consensus that other mathematicians also see it. It is based on rules that came before. But how are new rules found?

I am not trying to convince you that patterns of events are a pattern will occur on a certain date or your birthday determines certain events. I’m just debating if there is some events that numerology explains or if it could be useful to find new patterns.

In a pure scientific sense and not religious, Ai is a search for a pattern in every thing. Using numerology to find patterns could be purely scientific. Yes I don’t expect you to agree. But that is all a part of the debate.

BTW my NCAA example is for basketball. Football is less dependent on single superstars. But do you think a computer could ever totally analyze football? I like what my local sports caster say that stats are good on paper but to learn the outcome you have to play the game.

But do you agree that if analysis could predict everything it would ruin the game?

Yes I think @pzkpfw makes a relevant point. Looking for patterns in numerical data is not in itself numerology. Numerology consists in ascribing a non-scientific cause to any patterns that may be perceived. So it is not science, by definition.

If you merely identify what seems to you a pattern, without ascribing a cause, you leave it open to others to determine if the pattern is indeed really there, if it is significant and if so to propose causes.

10 hours ago, pzkpfw said:

In other words, if you have an example of (suspected) numerology, that actually "works" in some provable way, you'd maybe just have actual math (of some type; statistics probably).

This was the answer I started typing up, until I saw yours. Yes, statistically meaningful correlations, measuring actual relevant values (like yards rushed in football) and so on....are not numerology. Numerology is analysis like "I was born on 9/18/55, therefore my number is 82 and that means blah blah blah...." IOW, gibberish.

It is disappointing that more don't see through the 'numerology' promoted by the shamans of the subject.

This stuff is no more or less than the showmanship offered and used by religeous and political leaders throughout history.

I'm pretty sure the OP specifically said he did not mean that stuff, but was asking a serious question.

Meanwhile ordinary folks in all sorts of walks of life user numbers all the time for all sorts of purposes , from musicians to visual artists to engineers, technologists, scientists geographers and many many more.

Noe of this is numerology.

BUT

Thousands of years ago some thinkers noticed that

1 + 2 =/ 1 x 2 and 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 =/ 1 x 2 x 3 x 4

yet 1 + 2 + 3 = 1 x 2 x 3

This sort of accidental coincidence led to the only practical use of numerology in early cryptology.

All the rest is promotional sham.

This is what I understood by 'numerology':

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/numerology?q=numerology

No cause and effect, no reasonable connection, no definitions, propositions, lemmas, theorems and corolaries. No (A) implies (B), (A) if and only if (B), no principle of induction, no demonstration...

Nothing of that.

'Reading' the entrails of animals is no part of zoology or anatomy either.