On 8/31/2025 at 8:44 PM, swansont said:

I thought God was the ultimate off switch. Or is she not omnipotent?

But I think our view of omnipotent is limited. We know science and I often think about physics in church. But I don’t think our science is enough to decried omnipotence.

Like when we get to heaven is there a lot of singing? But math and science can be just as much used as a form of worship. Increasing the human understanding, curing a disease (as mentioned) or enjoying what there is to learn.

If the gods cannot remind us they are there what are we doing? I don’t mean just where we came from but what are these strange things like science are we doing?

If someone finds a pattern in Primes, Guass is not going to say I was so close. Einstein didn’t live long enough to complete unification.

Science is fun but I would argue that science is augmented by a personal God not rendered useless.

3 hours ago, Trurl said:

Science is fun but I would argue that science is augmented by a personal God not rendered useless

Each to his own, I have no need of that hypothesis.

9 hours ago, Trurl said:

But I think our view of omnipotent is limited. We know science and I often think about physics in church. But I don’t think our science is enough to decried omnipotence.

I think our view of omnipotent is quite straightforward, and if a deity is not, it should not be advertised as such. It’s one of those topics that people debate; some conclude there is no deity and others don’t think about it too much because of the implications. (like it’s a choice rather than a limitation of power)

9 hours ago, Trurl said:

Like when we get to heaven is there a lot of singing? But math and science can be just as much used as a form of worship. Increasing the human understanding, curing a disease (as mentioned) or enjoying what there is to learn.

If the gods cannot remind us they are there what are we doing? I don’t mean just where we came from but what are these strange things like science are we doing?

If someone finds a pattern in Primes, Guass is not going to say I was so close. Einstein didn’t live long enough to complete unification.

Science is fun but I would argue that science is augmented by a personal God not rendered useless.

What does this have to do with omnipotence?

Are you simply incapable of sticking to a topic, and restraining yourself from proselytizing?

10 hours ago, Trurl said:

Science is fun but I would argue that science is augmented by a personal God not rendered useless.

This seems like a strawman argument against something nobody else is claiming. Who said a personal god renders science useless? Does your personal god tell you not to use science?

10 hours ago, Trurl said:

But I think our view of omnipotent is limited. We know science and I often think about physics in church. But I don’t think our science is enough to decried omnipotence.

Our view? We define omnipotence as the ability to do anything, so how is that limited? If anything, it the lack of limits on omnipotence that makes many people question it.

2 hours ago, Phi for All said:

This seems like a strawman argument against something nobody else is claiming. Who said a personal god renders science useless? Does your personal god tell you not to use science?

Our view? We define omnipotence as the ability to do anything, so how is that limited? If anything, it the lack of limits on omnipotence that makes many people question it.

But what if the ability to do anything is contradicted by what anything is defined by?

But if the gods don’t want to or can’t prove to us they exist where does that put us. Explain to me where that puts science and humanity.

I know how you guys feel about Elon Musk but he is living the dream. Have many kids to stop population decline, going to Mars…

If there is no personal God, Elon should be our model.

And science only makes sense to us. I mean it is something we do but does it make sense outside of humanity? And when humanity is gone what becomes of science?

16 minutes ago, Trurl said:

But what if the ability to do anything is contradicted by what anything is defined by?

What does this even mean?

16 minutes ago, Trurl said:

But if the gods don’t want to or can’t prove to us they exist where does that put us. Explain to me where that puts science and humanity.

“Can’t” doesn’t enter into it for an omnipotent diety. (with God all things are possible/with God nothing shall be impossible/the Lord God omnipotent reigneth)

“Science and humanity” isn’t part of the discussion. Stop trying to change the subject

16 minutes ago, Trurl said:

I know how you guys feel about Elon Musk but he is living the dream. Have many kids to stop population decline, going to Mars…

Population isn’t declining. Musk is a white supremacist complaining about white population.

16 minutes ago, Trurl said:

If there is no personal God, Elon should be our model.

I will not use a Nazi as a model

16 minutes ago, Trurl said:

And science only makes sense to us. I mean it is something we do but does it make sense outside of humanity? And when humanity is gone what becomes of science?

If there’s novbody around to do science, there’s nobody doing science. Of what relevance is this?

1 hour ago, Trurl said:

And science only makes sense to us. I mean it is something we do but does it make sense outside of humanity? And when humanity is gone what becomes of science?

Why should science make sense outside of humanity? It's a disciplined approach for human understanding of our observable universe. Who else should it make sense to?

If you're talking about aliens discovering our science after we're extinct, I'd have to guess they'd have a way to decipher our languages. They made it all the way to Earth, and we know how much intelligence and technology that requires.

1 hour ago, Trurl said:

But if the gods don’t want to or can’t prove to us they exist where does that put us. Explain to me where that puts science and humanity.

If they exist but don't want to prove they exist, I think that puts us in great danger. Why do they want us to believe in them without evidence? We're pretty special when it comes to intelligent species on this planet. Why would the gods make us so smart but force us to rely on magic and superstition? Why teach us about writing books if they don't want us to observe and learn?

If they exist but CAN'T prove it, then they aren't omnipotent, simple as that. If they can't do something, they're limited. They're not what you thought they were, or not how they presented themselves. Again I see danger in that due to the duplicitous nature of the behavior.

If they don't exist, then science isn't affected at all, since it didn't take gods into account in the first place. Science is fine with admitting we don't know something. If the gods don't exist, then we're born, live, and die as complex organisms on a planet in one of the solar systems of a galaxy in the universe, and along the way we observe and gather information, test and experiment with everything we can so we can draw conclusions which we can also test and use to make predictions.

2 hours ago, Trurl said:

But if the gods don’t want to or can’t prove to us they exist where does that put us.

Those are not only options.

Don't want to show us- Why? This causes huge problems and creates lots of wars and atheists.

They can't show us- They are not gods then are they?

They don't exist.

Do you entertain this last option?

20 hours ago, Trurl said:

But what if the ability to do anything is contradicted by what anything is defined by?

But if the gods don’t want to or can’t prove to us they exist where does that put us. Explain to me where that puts science and humanity.

I know how you guys feel about Elon Musk but he is living the dream. Have many kids to stop population decline, going to Mars…

If there is no personal God, Elon should be our model.

And science only makes sense to us. I mean it is something we do but does it make sense outside of humanity? And when humanity is gone what becomes of science?

You seem confused...

For god to work as a teaching aid/metaphor then omnipotence is a necessary attribute, until one understands why one should be punished for doing stupid stuff.

For science to work, we just have to measure again.

You have to ask yourself, why do I need a god?

If it's to punish other's, then the Bible's have taught you nothing...

On 9/3/2025 at 8:06 AM, dimreepr said:

For god to work as a teaching aid/metaphor then omnipotence is a necessary attribute, until one understands why one should be punished for doing stupid stuff.

Well man not believing in God would not mean he couldn’t make him believe. God just gave him a choice. You are right punishment would result in man acknowledging God.

1 hour ago, Trurl said:

Well man not believing in God would not mean he couldn’t make him believe. God just gave him a choice.

How does someone choose to believe in god? Could you choose, for example, to believe that the earth is flat? You may claim you believed it if you thought disbelieving would result in punishment, but would you really believe the world is flat? It's the same with belief in god. I don't believe in him and I cannot force myself to do so.

8 hours ago, zapatos said:

How does someone choose to believe in god? Could you choose, for example, to believe that the earth is flat? You may claim you believed it if you thought disbelieving would result in punishment, but would you really believe the world is flat? It's the same with belief in god. I don't believe in him and I cannot force myself to do so.

Indeed, but you can believe in the wisdom of the people that spawned it...