Bufofrog Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 4 hours ago, mar_mar said: I think this theory of evolution and a theory of bb are exactly matter of faith. You are quite simply wrong. There is lots of evidence for both of these theories, so faith is not necessary. The evidence is literally at your finger tips if you could be bothered to look. On the other hand there is no evidence of God and there is no evidence of the biblical creation, so it takes faith to believe in those. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 5 hours ago, mar_mar said: Really?? I think this theory of evolution and a theory of bb are exactly matter of faith. And this is because you haven't bothered to study science. You came here specifically to champion religion over science, without understanding either very much. Imagine this: someone from the country moves to the big city. They tell you they've been putting their garbage in a can next to the street, and praying to god to take care of it. And each time they do that, god takes away the trash. They believe trash collection is a matter of faith. They don't know any better, and it seems like a miracle when the trash disappears overnight. You have the power to educate them, and tell them about how the city collects the trash, or you could let them believe their fantasy. What do you do? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 hour ago, Bufofrog said: There is lots of evidence for both of these theories, so faith is not necessary. Don't you have to trust the evidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mar_mar Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 (edited) 2 hours ago, dimreepr said: Why does it need too? The thing is, we can see the evidence, even the seemingly magical (placebo, cough), and we're free to question. Can you honestly say that you have seen god, or had an answer when you talked to him? And no, an epiphany, or seemingly magical intervention, doesn't count; for instance "as for my epiphany, so to speak, I woke up this morning with nothing to eat, no skins or truffles and no money for cider." And then "I went to the food bank at 9:30 (usually 12:30) just in case, to be told come back at 12:30, but on my way home 'the morgan' stopped me and asked if I wanted an hours work, I said yes, of course, and he dropped me back just in time to be 1st in que and money for skins and cider...", it had to be god, I'm never that lucky... If you want to question science about religion, your going to have to think of a much, much better question... Since it is the evidence of origin of life. Origin of nature as well It's not about magic. It's about origin of life. And i thought it is an open question in science. Edited January 5 by mar_mar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharonY Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 3 hours ago, Luc Turpin said: 'Survival does not equal passing on genes", but do you not need to be alive (have survived) to pass on your gene pool? Yes at the time of reproduction, but if you manage to stay alive at the cost of not reproducing you are not contributing. Conversely, if you reproduce and then die, you still contribute. This is like in the example of salmons. If they don't go through the trouble of migration to their spawn sites, they would live a fair bit longer. But they would not contribute to the gene pool. In other words, if there was a mutation that prevents them from conducting that migration, it would improve their survival, but eliminate them from the gene pool and would therefore vanish as trait (negatively selected). 3 hours ago, Luc Turpin said: Additional questions, again, if I may: Can you tell me what role if any has intelligence played in human evolution? And if there is a role for intelligence, are we talking then of inheritable traits under positive selection? or not? or something more? or something else? Intelligence has shaped our environment, so the contribution to human evolution is indirect. We change selective pressures and that can affect our gene pool. The one part that could be somewhat considered direct is sexual selection. What is considered to be attractive in a mate can be culturally shaped and this could lead to proliferation of specific traits. Evolution and intelligence is harder to assess as we really do not know how it is inherited and estimates of inheritability have been diverging quite a bit. Mostly because it is seemingly a very malleable on top of the inheritable bits. I don't understand what you mean with your last questions. 2 minutes ago, mar_mar said: Since it is the evidence of origin of life. Origin of nature as well It's not about magic. It's about origin of life. And i thought it is an open question in science. Evolution is not about the origin of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mar_mar Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 2 hours ago, Bufofrog said: You are quite simply wrong. There is lots of evidence for both of these theories, so faith is not necessary. The evidence is literally at your finger tips if you could be bothered to look. On the other hand there is no evidence of God and there is no evidence of the biblical creation, so it takes faith to believe in those. what do you mean saying "evidence of God"? what evidence would be appropriate? And what about finger tips? Anyway, i don't deny that a man is a part of nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bufofrog Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 46 minutes ago, dimreepr said: Don't you have to trust the evidence? That is kind of an absurd thing to say. If the evidence is not trustworthy it is by definition not evidence. Seems like you just want to argue for fun which I am not interested in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mar_mar Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 hour ago, Phi for All said: You came here specifically to champion religion over science No. 1 hour ago, Phi for All said: Imagine this: someone from the country moves to the big city. They tell you they've been putting their garbage in a can next to the street, and praying to god to take care of it. And each time they do that, god takes away the trash. They believe trash collection is a matter of faith. They don't know any better, and it seems like a miracle when the trash disappears overnight. You have the power to educate them, and tell them about how the city collects the trash, or you could let them believe their fantasy. What do you do? Why are you saying this? it's so incorrect that i don't know what to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bufofrog Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 6 minutes ago, mar_mar said: what do you mean saying "evidence of God"? what evidence would be appropriate? I don't know. I'm sure if God exists he could come up with something convincing. 7 minutes ago, mar_mar said: And what about finger tips? Notice that by pressing your finger tips to the keyboard letters you can look up the evidence for the BB and evolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mar_mar Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 3 minutes ago, Bufofrog said: That is kind of an absurd thing to say. If the evidence is not trustworthy it is by definition not evidence. Seems like you just want to argue for fun which I am not interested in. you have to trust all the knowledge except empirically obtained Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bufofrog Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 minute ago, mar_mar said: you have to trust all the knowledge except empirically obtained Are you saying only empirical evidence should be accepted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mar_mar Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 4 minutes ago, Bufofrog said: I don't know. I'm sure if God exists he could come up with something convincing. what for? for you to believe? faith is "assurance about what we do not see." 16 minutes ago, Bufofrog said: Are you saying only empirical evidence should be accepted? i say that you have to trust knowledge which you can't verify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bufofrog Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 18 minutes ago, mar_mar said: what for? for you to believe? Sure. 20 minutes ago, mar_mar said: faith is "assurance about what we do not see." Exactly, its belief without evidence. I do not have that type of faith. 22 minutes ago, mar_mar said: i say that you have to trust knowledge which you can't verify. I don't trust knowledge that can't be verified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 hour ago, mar_mar said: saying "evidence of God"? what evidence would be appropriate? How about you start with ANY and we'll go from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mar_mar Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 12 minutes ago, Bufofrog said: Sure. it won't be a real faith. just entertainment. 12 minutes ago, Bufofrog said: Exactly, its belief without evidence. I do not have that type of faith. Yes, that is why God can't be proved or disproved by the science. 12 minutes ago, Bufofrog said: I don't trust knowledge that can't be verified. what exactly knowledge you can verify? can you verify evolution theory? it is a theory after all, not a dogma. so you trust it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 6 minutes ago, mar_mar said: can you verify evolution theory? yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mar_mar Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 9 minutes ago, iNow said: How about you start with ANY and we'll go from there. no. it was my question what evidence does science need. 3 minutes ago, iNow said: yes how? is evolution a change or development? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 14 minutes ago, mar_mar said: it was my question what evidence does science need. Any. Any whatsoever. Whatyda got? 15 minutes ago, mar_mar said: how? With honesty and integrity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mar_mar Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 hour ago, iNow said: With honesty What do you mean? -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bufofrog Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 2 hours ago, mar_mar said: what exactly knowledge you can verify? can you verify evolution theory? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 3 hours ago, mar_mar said: Why are you saying this? it's so incorrect that i don't know what to say. How can a question be incorrect? I gave you a scenario and asked you a question about it, so how can "this" be "so incorrect" that you don't know what to say? Pretend the scenario is happening to me and I'm asking you for advice. "Hey, mar_mar, my neighbors are from the country and don't understand that the city picks up trash cans that are put out at the curb. They think it's because they prayed for the trash to be dealt with, and God is answering their prayers. Should I let them keep thinking God picks up their trash cans, or should I tell them what's really happening?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mar_mar Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 50 minutes ago, Bufofrog said: Yes. Ok 47 minutes ago, Phi for All said: How can a question be incorrect? I gave you a scenario and asked you a question about it, so how can "this" be "so incorrect" that you don't know what to say? Pretend the scenario is happening to me and I'm asking you for advice. "Hey, mar_mar, my neighbors are from the country and don't understand that the city picks up trash cans that are put out at the curb. They think it's because they prayed for the trash to be dealt with, and God is answering their prayers. Should I let them keep thinking God picks up their trash cans, or should I tell them what's really happening?" It's not about God, or god. Do you know what prayer is? Have you ever prayed in your life? Prayer, first of all, is the gratitude. I can't imagine this situation. Why atheists always think that those, who believe only pray and wait for a miracle?? - this is incorrect. And i don't see a problem in this imaginary scenario , though you ask for imaginary advice. As for me i would try to make friends with those neighbors and explained about trash. If they didn't pick up the trash I would do it for them, when i notice that trash. i hope i answered your question. and i feel it will be moved to trash can...it's always about trash... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 42 minutes ago, mar_mar said: And i don't see a problem in this imaginary scenario , though you ask for imaginary advice. As for me i would try to make friends with those neighbors and explained about trash. If they didn't pick up the trash I would do it for them, when i notice that trash. So you would explain that it's the city that sends trucks around early in the morning to collect trash cans, and not their god? You would correct their religious beliefs about trash pickup because you know the real explanation and feel it would be wrong not to help them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mar_mar Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Phi for All said: So you would explain that it's the city that sends trucks around early in the morning to collect trash cans, and not their god? You would correct their religious beliefs about trash pickup because you know the real explanation and feel it would be wrong not to help them? Wait. I mentioned that this example is incorrect, but you insist on it. It is incorrect in the core. It's not religious belief, it's immaturity. Faith is not about waiting for God to do my work for me. I have another scenario for you. Are you waiting your neighbors to "evolve" from the country neighbors to respectful city neighbors? Why have you mentioned that they are from the country? Edited January 5 by mar_mar -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 I feel bad sometimes for all the smart religious believers out there being represented online by those so clearly unmolested by enlightenment like here with mostly annoying morons who clearly ate way too much paste during childhood… Sometimes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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