Everything is one whole

[empleat]

Nietzsche, Goethe, Schopenhauer thought everything is one whole (e.g. consciousness/god):

Quote

“And do you know what “the world” is to me? Shall I show it to you in my mirror? This world: a monster of energy, without beginning, without end; a firm, iron magnitude of force that does not grow bigger or smaller, that does not expend itself but only transforms itself; as a whole, of unalterable size, a household without expenses or losses, but likewise without increase or income; enclosed by “nothingness” as by a boundary; not something blurry or wasted, not something endlessly extended, but set in a definite space as a definite force, and not a space that might be “empty” here or there, but rather as force throughout, as a play of forces and waves of forces, at the same time one and many, increasing here and at the same time decreasing there; a sea of forces flowing and rushing together, eternally changing, eternally flooding back, with tremendous years of recurrence, with an ebb and a flood of its forms; out of the simplest forms striving toward the most complex, out of the stillest, most rigid, coldest forms striving toward the hottest, most turbulent, most self-contradictory, and then again returning home to the simple out of this abundance, out of the play of contradictions back to the joy of concord, still affirming itself in this uniformity of its courses and its years, blessing itself as that which must return eternally, as a becoming that knows no satiety, no disgust, no weariness: this, my Dionysian world of the eternally self- creating, the eternally self-destroying, this mystery world of the twofold voluptuous delight, my “beyond good and evil,” without goal, unless the joy of the circle is itself a goal; without will, unless a ring feels good will toward itself— do you want a name for this world? A solution for all of its riddles? A light for you, too, you best-concealed, strongest, most intrepid, most midnightly men?— This world is the will to power—and nothing besides! And you yourselves are also this will to power—and nothing besides!”

Also that there is no distinction between object-subject, even it is unprovable as Schopenhauer said in his book The World as Will and its representation.

Also music is thought to be direct representation to will, as it is a priory to objects of mind, not abstract but thoroughly determinate like universal language and it allows us to get meaning of e.g. dramatic scenes, or what is going on in any given situation. Birth of Tragedy 17. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/51356/51356-h/51356-h.htm

I had divine mania like Nietzsche I was everything from homeless man to emperor! This is so beyond language, I can't prove it, but I saw things beyond imagination and comprehension! Interestingly enough: I read that international high IQ having same experiences of oneness with everything, timelessness and infinity! Sonya Falck supposedly reported on this, even i couldn't find it in her book, but i didn't have time to read it and i can't so...

If we don't make life as a game, like sport and won't elevate other ppl with us (selfish-altruism), instead of trying to push them down... We will create eternal hell for us... We should just have fun and enjoy ourselves, slave morality is so strong ppl are today afraid to enjoy themselves, it is everything today as we live in degenerate society...

It is so terrible, 99.9999% ppl are not even strong to consider this, your sub-consciousness protects you, because there is no evolutionary advantage for you knowing this and it is so terrible who would wanted to be depressed and in agony 24/7... I know no one will take this seriously anyways, so it is whatever...

There are even theories in sciences about this, tho we are infantile and it is unprovable, if we ever could know as there might be limit on knowledge! And consciousness is getting importance in science to explain reality and solve problems...

Edited July 19, 2023 by empleat

[Eise]

On 7/19/2023 at 4:15 AM, empleat said:

Also that there is no distinction between object-subject

Of course there is a distinction between object and subject, albeit a conceptual one. The question is if this conceptual distinction is also an ontological one. Many mystical traditions, and interesting enough, modern science, do not think there is a complete distinction between the two. 

On 7/19/2023 at 4:15 AM, empleat said:

I had divine mania like Nietzsche I was everything from homeless man to emperor! This is so beyond language, I can't prove it, but I saw things beyond imagination and comprehension!

That sounds more like a temporal loss of personal identity. That can happen just spontaneously, but can also be triggered by severe stress, or by meditation. I never heard of a connection with IQ. But I know of an German author, Michael Schmidt-Salomon,  with a similar experience: it was triggered by an intense period of thinking about the free will problem, which he was writing an article about.

On 7/19/2023 at 4:15 AM, empleat said:

If we don't make life as a game, like sport and won't elevate other ppl with us (selfish-altruism), instead of trying to push them down... We will create eternal hell for us... We should just have fun and enjoy ourselves, slave morality is so strong ppl are today afraid to enjoy themselves, it is everything today as we live in degenerate society...

A game where the endpoint is death should be played differently than a game you can start over and over again. 

On 7/19/2023 at 4:15 AM, empleat said:

It is so terrible, 99.9999% ppl are not even strong to consider this, your sub-consciousness protects you, because there is no evolutionary advantage for you knowing this and it is so terrible who would wanted to be depressed and in agony 24/7... I know no one will take this seriously anyways, so it is whatever...

I take it seriously, but I think you are wrong. Why would otherwise mystical traditions strive for insight in the grounds of personal existence? Think about the concept of Śūnyatā in Buddhist philosophy. Realising Nirwana, according to Buddhism, leads to equanimity, calmness of the mind.

On 7/19/2023 at 4:15 AM, empleat said:

There are even theories in sciences about this, tho we are infantile and it is unprovable, if we ever could know as there might be limit on knowledge! And consciousness is getting importance in science to explain reality and solve problems...

No idea what you mean here.

[exchemist]

On 7/19/2023 at 3:15 AM, empleat said:

Nietzsche, Goethe, Schopenhauer thought everything is one whole (e.g. consciousness/god):

Also that there is no distinction between object-subject, even it is unprovable as Schopenhauer said in his book The World as Will and its representation.

Also music is thought to be direct representation to will, as it is a priory to objects of mind, not abstract but thoroughly determinate like universal language and it allows us to get meaning of e.g. dramatic scenes, or what is going on in any given situation. Birth of Tragedy 17. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/51356/51356-h/51356-h.htm

I had divine mania like Nietzsche I was everything from homeless man to emperor! This is so beyond language, I can't prove it, but I saw things beyond imagination and comprehension! Interestingly enough: I read that international high IQ having same experiences of oneness with everything, timelessness and infinity! Sonya Falck supposedly reported on this, even i couldn't find it in her book, but i didn't have time to read it and i can't so...

If we don't make life as a game, like sport and won't elevate other ppl with us (selfish-altruism), instead of trying to push them down... We will create eternal hell for us... We should just have fun and enjoy ourselves, slave morality is so strong ppl are today afraid to enjoy themselves, it is everything today as we live in degenerate society...

It is so terrible, 99.9999% ppl are not even strong to consider this, your sub-consciousness protects you, because there is no evolutionary advantage for you knowing this and it is so terrible who would wanted to be depressed and in agony 24/7... I know no one will take this seriously anyways, so it is whatever...

There are even theories in sciences about this, tho we are infantile and it is unprovable, if we ever could know as there might be limit on knowledge! And consciousness is getting importance in science to explain reality and solve problems...

The thing about consciousness is a fairly widespread popular misunderstanding, often associated with quantum theory and sometimes, in egregiously ignorant or stupid cases, with relativity. But I won't go further, as your post is not very coherent.  

Edited July 20, 2023 by exchemist

[Genady]

On 7/18/2023 at 10:15 PM, empleat said:

as there might be limit on knowledge!

Of course, there is.

 

On 7/18/2023 at 10:15 PM, empleat said:

And consciousness is getting importance in science to explain reality and solve problems

Where in science?

[joigus]

Of course everything is one whole. The problem is what to do with that.

And what's more, why is the denial of this monumental truism so useful?

Edited July 20, 2023 by joigus
minor correction

[empleat]

7 hours ago, Eise said:

Of course there is a distinction between object and subject, albeit a conceptual one. The question is if this conceptual distinction is also an ontological one. Many mystical traditions, and interesting enough, modern science, do not think there is a complete distinction between the two. 

Interesting, I thought it cannot be proven! How science came to conclusion that there is not a distinction between the two, even it still cannot be fully proven from the looks of it.

7 hours ago, Eise said:

That sounds more like a temporal loss of personal identity. That can happen just spontaneously, but can also be triggered by severe stress, or by meditation. I never heard of a connection with IQ. But I know of an German author, Michael Schmidt-Salomon,  with a similar experience: it was triggered by an intense period of thinking about the free will problem, which he was writing an article about.

 

Quote

“Anyone who manages to experience the history of humanity as a whole as his own history will feel in an enormously generalized way all the grief of an invalid who thinks of health, of an old man who thinks of the dream of his youth, of a lover deprived of his beloved, of the martyr whose ideal is perishing, of the hero on the evening after a battle that has decided nothing but brought him wounds and the loss of his friend. But if one endured, if one could endure this immense sum of grief of all kinds while yet being the hero who, as the second day of battle breaks, welcomes the dawn and his fortune, being a person whose horizon encompasses thousands of years, past and future, being the heir of all the nobility of all past spirit - an heir with a sense of obligation, the most aristocratic of old nobles and at the same time the first of a new nobility - the like of which no age has yet seen or dreamed of; if one could burden one’s soul with all of this - the oldest, the newest, losses, hopes, conquests, and the victories of humanity; if one could finally contain all this in one soul and crowd it into a single feeling - this would surely have to result in a happiness that humanity has not known so far: the happiness of a god full of power and love, full of tears and laughter, a happiness that, like the sun in the evening, continually bestows its inexhaustible riches, pouring them into the sea, feeling richest, as the sun does, only when even the poorest fishermen is still rowing with golden oars! This godlike feeling would then be called - humaneness.”

― Friedrich Nietzsche, The Gay Science: With a Prelude in Rhymes and an Appendix of Songs

Everyone says this to me, except 160IQ person with 4 areas of science and does philosophy... That i am delusional/crazy. I made post on mensa sub-reddit and everyon resisted every word i said and then one guy comes and said I Am more intelligent than others give me credit for. I had these existential feelings (it is really immensely complicated topic) since I was kid. Big problem is you can't explain in language even close, it is just impossible... I had these since I was kid and even when i was chill yet, i had also spontaneous spiritual awakening during these and it wasn't always negative, but sublime! 160IQ told me i am not crazy there is something more going on... And people with overexcitabilities can express symptoms of Schizoprenia and mental disorders, while it is more complex process of dynamisms which are processes driving personality development. I read it all the time gifted are called schizoprenic and 100 labels... But i am not denying i have tons of problems and sometimes i was even delusional from pain, i suffered so much i hit limit on suffering, that i couldn't feel any more pain... Still this is like most clique thing to say... In society anyone who isn't like them is called crazy... While it was found that mental disorders are even evolutionary functional and some professor called society barbaric for imprisoning ppl with them and they are not getting there help they need and leaving them behind... I watched TV show about women which was called delusional/psychotic and conspiratory, that someone killed their husband. Even someone tried to kill her in ward and doctor just assume it were hallucinating and treated their most cold way, literally didn't even tried to understand her, or respect her feelings and then she was wondering why she tried to escape repeatedly, but some nice cop saved her and trusted her... You cannot even imagine how warped are these doctors/institutions... Chomsky said civilization is 100 years behind morally, behind intellect, but sorry going to tangents too much i just woke up...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_disintegration

 

7 hours ago, Eise said:

A game where the endpoint is death should be played differently than a game you can start over and over again. 

That is not inconsistent with what i am saying, you can die as human body, but you will live all possible lives forever as everything is one ever changing whole! Unfortunately most ppl just trying to get most for themselves by pushing other ppl down, instead trying to elevate them with them! Also idea of eternal now is scares me to death, that everything already is and we can't change it... I don't understand how in works in terms of Quantum Superposition tho, if you can change what is, or if everything what ever was and will be already is existing in eternal now... I Am not smart anymore, i am so damaged i don't even remember basics TBH...

Also there are hypotheses universe is one organism, like ANN etc. And creates more complexity with similar process like darwinian evolution and conscious agents, so there might be hope. I just hope that it could be changeable and not like everything is already written and absolute... That is nightmarish idea!

7 hours ago, Eise said:

I take it seriously, but I think you are wrong. Why would otherwise mystical traditions strive for insight in the grounds of personal existence?

I don't follow, I wasn't talking about mystical traditions, but biggest geniuses that ever lived...

7 hours ago, Eise said:

No idea what you mean here.

That everything is based on our assumptions and ultimately unprovable, there might be limit on our knowledge and science might not be completible, also we still young on kardashev scale of civilizations, so it is still up to debate and even theories might not mean too much, as it is just too complex and mistakes can be easily made, or use some data which fits your theory etc. I have always doubts, i now i don't even remember anything to give examples, because i am in pain... Which is annoying... ALso i never said i am smarter or know best, i always question everything from 0, but i can't even get to point 1.1 between A and B, before just someone stops me usually and they just want to be contrarian and don't try to engage with argument at all usually... And i have problem with speech, i never said i am trying to prove this empirically, or i have empirical prove. It is so disgustingly complex, i read x .pdfs and i always want to know more and have doubts ofc. but it is my problem with speech and memory... 

ALSO What about immaterialism of language, is or is it not strong argument against materialism? I didn't have time to even start reading about this...

5 hours ago, exchemist said:

The thing about consciousness is a fairly widespread popular misunderstanding, often associated with quantum theory and sometimes, in egregiously ignorant or stupid cases, with relativity. But I won't go further, as your post is not very coherent.  

Fun answer, so coherent = not eligible? I suffer with aphasia and i have 10/10 pain 7 years so... Some ppl discard knowledge too fast, most ppl judge new knowledge based on their existing knowledge. While i don't know you and i don't assume of other ppl ahead in opposite what others do. But i would say you just saw consciousness and QM and thought it is another of these claims, i knew ppl which were really smart, but limited their pool of knowledge and were too quick to come to conclusions... I am more of an foundational thinker and questions everything all the time, and like to make mistakes and revise my positions all the time... Also why would you assume, it was only this? See you how bad this can be, when ppl do this, because:

I Am aware that it is know that QM doesn't even necessarily play role in the consciousness, even there is debate about that. That's not what this was about, it is so much broader conundrum... No it is not ignorant, or stupid. I think you are just referring to theories, i am referring more broadly to phenomena itself and its usefullness. Yes some theories are like people uncritically believing everything is math and it is basis of reality, when math is not even language of math (goedel theorem), but no one can explain what consciousness is, yes that doesn't mean it is immaterial yet, it is complicated, nevertheless (i have amnesia can't almost recall the words) science is using it today as mainstream paradigm. What about Wheeler's Participatory Universe? Wheeler was one of most prominent physicists! Also there is no external reality without observer - 2022 Quantum Prize for quantum entanglement and non locality and bells inequalities, unless superdeterminism isn't true... Not sure if this cannot be interpreted other ways too, i have so intense headaches blurred vision and tinnitus, can't even recall. Don't take what i say literally, i literally autocorrect like ai based on what i say and what other ppl give me input to it, because i am completely messed up... And suffer from severe aphasia... I might be wrong, but i thought science today use consciousness as one of main paradigms and was actually able to make progress because of it. Also we learn more from mistakes than from success - Nikola Tesla, no theory is useless even wrong one. Although I agree, ppl make me egregious claims theorizes, but i care more about foundations... Or if it is even possibility, who would want to risk that. I think people should elevate other with them instead of pushing them down, otherwise we will create infinite hell for us, not to mention it benefits them if others are doing good, instead bad too!

It is still uncanny biggest geniuses ever thought so!

Also consciousness cannot be conceptualized, even if you describe it using math, it would be still formulas in framework of experience, even this doesn't prove anything also, we just started studying it, so i wouldn't use this as argument. You should be open to possibilities... https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-25-year-old-bet-about-consciousness-has-finally-been-settled/

There are so many other avenues, which we can't even study and we just started study it, so ofc. we can't say yet what it is, there are many other views. Everything is unprovable and based on some assumptions, there might be absolutely limit on knowledge and science might not be even completible... With knowledge shores of our ignorance rise! "a man mistakes his limits for limits of the world" - Arthur Schopenhauer. We all know nothing, even if one reads 1000wpm and i read speed reading does not work and leads to worse recollection, you can't know even 0.00000000001% I get this a lot from very smart ppl too and then they say something that is wrong... That's usual treatment i get, no one even tries to help me, i need put cards on deck to see, it is like... That is literally the truth, i had many ppl shutting me down and then smarter ppl than them said i am extremely intelligent, no one ever wanted to give me even chance. AS i explained i have 7 years chronic pain and suffer from crippling headaches and aphasia, memory, intelligence issues... I Am trying working on my health 24/7 David Goggins Can't Hurt Me audiobook for anyone who wants to completely change their life (from nothing to navy seals, it is meant for absolutely anyone, even for mental tasks), i can't even read anymore...

Again but i am not smart anymore, feel free to criticize my arguments not person, i am also not saying you are necessarily this, but you see 2 words consciousness QM and post not coherent and basically say everything now i say cannot be right, so if i say world is round, world is flat is correct now. It is like murderer saying murder is wrong , you say because he is murderer, it cannot be right, so murder is now right... I found it arrogant, but i don't even care about that. I Am just tired of intellectually dishonest ppl, because again i knew about this, that there are many egregarious and just unsubstantiated claims about consciousness in relation to QM... It is just so complicated, it cannot be done justice in coupl sentences and again i am in terrible state...

 

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by empleat

[geordief]

1 hour ago, joigus said:

Of course everything is one whole. The problem is what to do with that.

And what's more, why is the denial of this monumental truism so useful?

I am not sure I agree.There are ties that bind constituent parts together for a time  but when the ties are broken  the parts are separate.

And how to define the whole ?(if that is what we are aiming for)

Trump is part of the American political class but also a part of the  spoiled jerks society (for as long as he is tolerated   suffered or embraced)

Does the observable universe ever recombine  once it has expanded beyond the limits of causality?

Does it break up into independent parts?

[empleat]

8 minutes ago, geordief said:

I am not sure I agree.There are ties that bind constituent parts together for a time  but when the ties are broken  the parts are separate.

And how to define the whole ?(if that is what we are aiming for)

Trump is part of the American political class but also a part of the  spoiled jerks society (for as long as he is tolerated   suffered or embraced)

Does the observable universe ever recombine  once it has expanded beyond the limits of causality?

Does it break up into independent parts?

You should read Nietzsche and re-read links i posted. It is line of philosophical reasoning, because everything you experience is filtered through your brain and one cannot be sure if there is separation between the two, which is not proof itself, it is unprovable, but there are better arguments! Study Goethe, Nietzsche, Schopenhauer and look on scientific theories of today also... It is very possible, but again I cannot prove that, almost everything is unprovable... I unfortunately cannot give you more at this time, because i recall only where to find information and even that, as i read so much, instead of info itself... However it is isn't too crazy to think that everything is consciousness, i have feeling that some ppl just have belief this is nonsense and so they don't even try to study it and engage in related things, just to see where it leads. Also fact that biggest geniuses thought so, again it isn't proof, but it has some weight and should be studied! Nietzsche even predicted QM and physics which is like stupid way to call it and i am not even sure what was known at time when he was alive, but still he speaks of energy conservation and vacuum and there are fields and forces, things constantly appearing and dissappearing (it is uncanny), again i can't do justice in this state, i couldn't probably calculate even a/b =c in this state: 

Quote

“And do you know what “the world” is to me? Shall I show it to you in my mirror? This world: a monster of energy, without beginning, without end; a firm, iron magnitude of force that does not grow bigger or smaller, that does not expend itself but only transforms itself; as a whole, of unalterable size, a household without expenses or losses, but likewise without increase or income; enclosed by “nothingness” as by a boundary; not something blurry or wasted, not something endlessly extended, but set in a definite space as a definite force, and not a space that might be “empty” here or there, but rather as force throughout, as a play of forces and waves of forces, at the same time one and many, increasing here and at the same time decreasing there; a sea of forces flowing and rushing together, eternally changing, eternally flooding back, with tremendous years of recurrence, with an ebb and a flood of its forms; out of the simplest forms striving toward the most complex, out of the stillest, most rigid, coldest forms striving toward the hottest, most turbulent, most self-contradictory, and then again returning home to the simple out of this abundance, out of the play of contradictions back to the joy of concord, still affirming itself in this uniformity of its courses and its years, blessing itself as that which must return eternally, as a becoming that knows no satiety, no disgust, no weariness: this, my Dionysian world of the eternally self- creating, the eternally self-destroying, this mystery world of the twofold voluptuous delight, my “beyond good and evil,” without goal, unless the joy of the circle is itself a goal; without will, unless a ring feels good will toward itself— do you want a name for this world? A solution for all of its riddles? A light for you, too, you best-concealed, strongest, most intrepid, most midnightly men?— This world is the will to power—and nothing besides! And you yourselves are also this will to power—and nothing besides!”

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by empleat

[exchemist]

9 minutes ago, empleat said:

Interesting, I thought it cannot be proven! How science came to conclusion that there is not a distinction between the two, even it still cannot be fully proven from the looks of it.

 

Everyone says this to me, except 160IQ person with 4 areas of science and does philosophy... That i am delusional/crazy. I made post on mensa sub-reddit and everyon resisted every word i said and then one guy comes and said I Am more intelligent than others give me credit for. I had these existential feelings (it is really immensely complicated topic) since I was kid. Big problem is you can't explain in language even close, it is just impossible... I had these since I was kid and even when i was chill yet, i had also spontaneous spiritual awakening during these and it wasn't always negative, but sublime! 160IQ told me i am not crazy there is something more going on... And people with overexcitabilities can express symptoms of Schizoprenia and mental disorders, while it is more complex process of dynamisms which are processes driving personality development. I read it all the time gifted are called schizoprenic and 100 labels... But i am not denying i have tons of problems and sometimes i was even delusional from pain, i suffered so much i hit limit on suffering, that i couldn't feel any more pain... Still this is like most clique thing to say... In society anyone who isn't like them is called crazy... While it was found that mental disorders are even evolutionary functional and some professor called society barbaric for imprisoning ppl with them and they are not getting there help they need and leaving them behind... I watched TV show about women which was called delusional/psychotic and conspiratory, that someone killed their husband. Even someone tried to kill her in ward and doctor just assume it were hallucinating and treated their most cold way, literally didn't even tried to understand her, or respect her feelings and then she was wondering why she tried to escape repeatedly, but some nice cop saved her and trusted her... You cannot even imagine how warped are these doctors/institutions... Chomsky said civilization is 100 years behind morally, behind intellect, but sorry going to tangents too much i just woke up...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_disintegration

 

That is not inconsistent with what i am saying, you can die as human body, but you will live all possible lives forever as everything is one ever changing whole! Unfortunately most ppl just trying to get most for themselves by pushing other ppl down, instead trying to elevate them with them! Also idea of eternal now is scares me to death, that everything already is and we can't change it... I don't understand how in works in terms of Quantum Superposition tho, if you can change what is, or if everything what ever was and will be already is existing in eternal now... I Am not smart anymore, i am so damaged i don't even remember basics TBH...

Also there are hypotheses universe is one organism, like ANN etc. And creates more complexity with similar process like darwinian evolution and conscious agents, so there might be hope. I just hope that it could be changeable and not like everything is already written and absolute... That is nightmarish idea!

I don't follow, I wasn't talking about mystical traditions, but biggest geniuses that ever lived...

That everything is based on our assumptions and ultimately unprovable, there might be limit on our knowledge and science might not be completible, also we still young on kardashev scale of civilizations, so it is still up to debate and even theories might not mean too much, as it is just too complex and mistakes can be easily made, or use some data which fits your theory etc. I have always doubts, i now i don't even remember anything to give examples, because i am in pain... Which is annoying... ALso i never said i am smarter or know best, i always question everything from 0, but i can't even get to point 1.1 between A and B, before just someone stops me usually and they just want to be contrarian and don't try to engage with argument at all usually... And i have problem with speech, i never said i am trying to prove this empirically, or i have empirical prove. It is so disgustingly complex, i read x .pdfs and i always want to know more and have doubts ofc. but it is my problem with speech and memory... 

ALSO What about immaterialism of language, is or is it not strong argument against materialism? I didn't have time to even start reading about this...

Fun answer, so coherent = not eligible? I suffer with aphasia and i have 10/10 pain 7 years so... Some ppl discard knowledge too fast, most ppl judge new knowledge based on their existing knowledge. While i don't know you and i don't assume of other ppl ahead in opposite what others do. But i would say you just saw consciousness and QM and thought it is another of these claims, i knew ppl which were really smart, but limited their pool of knowledge and were too quick to come to conclusions... I am more of an foundational thinker and questions everything all the time, and like to make mistakes and revise my positions all the time... Also why would you assume, it was only this? See you how bad this can be, when ppl do this, because:

I Am aware that it is know that QM doesn't even necessarily play role in the consciousness, even there is debate about that. That's not what this was about, it is so much broader conundrum... No it is not ignorant, or stupid. I think you are just referring to theories, i am referring more broadly to phenomena itself and its usefullness. Yes some theories are like people uncritically believing everything is math and it is basis of reality, when math is not even language of math (goedel theorem), but no one can explain what consciousness is, yes that doesn't mean it is immaterial yet, it is complicated, nevertheless (i have amnesia can't almost recall the words) science is using it today as mainstream paradigm. What about Wheeler's Participatory Universe? Wheeler was one of most prominent physicists! Also there is no external reality without observer - 2022 Quantum Prize for quantum entanglement and non locality and bells inequalities, unless superdeterminism isn't true... Not sure if this cannot be interpreted other ways too, i have so intense headaches blurred vision and tinnitus, can't even recall. Don't take what i say literally, i literally autocorrect like ai based on what i say and what other ppl give me input to it, because i am completely messed up... And suffer from severe aphasia... I might be wrong, but i thought science today use consciousness as one of main paradigms and was actually able to make progress because of it. Also we learn more from mistakes than from success - Nikola Tesla, no theory is useless even wrong one. Although I agree, ppl make me egregious claims theorizes, but i care more about foundations... Or if it is even possibility, who would want to risk that. I think people should elevate other with them instead of pushing them down, otherwise we will create infinite hell for us, not to mention it benefits them if others are doing good, instead bad too!

It is still uncanny biggest geniuses ever thought so!

Also consciousness cannot be conceptualized, even if you describe it using math, it would be still formulas in framework of experience, even this doesn't prove anything also, we just started studying it, so i wouldn't use this as argument. You should be open to possibilities... https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-25-year-old-bet-about-consciousness-has-finally-been-settled/

There are so many other avenues, which we can't even study and we just started study it, so ofc. we can't say yet what it is, there are many other views. Everything is unprovable and based on some assumptions, there might be absolutely limit on knowledge and science might not be even completible... With knowledge shores of our ignorance rise! "a man mistakes his limits for limits of the world" - Arthur Schopenhauer. We all know nothing, even if one reads 1000wpm and i read speed reading does not work and leads to worse recollection, you can't know even 0.00000000001% I get this a lot from very smart ppl too and then they say something that is wrong... That's usual treatment i get, no one even tries to help me, i need put cards on deck to see, it is like... That is literally the truth, i had many ppl shutting me down and then smarter ppl than them said i am extremely intelligent, no one ever wanted to give me even chance. AS i explained i have 7 years chronic pain and suffer from crippling headaches and aphasia, memory, intelligence issues... I Am trying working on my health 24/7 David Goggins Can't Hurt Me audiobook for anyone who wants to completely change their life (from nothing to navy seals, it is meant for absolutely anyone, even for mental tasks), i can't even read anymore...

Again but i am not smart anymore, feel free to criticize my arguments not person, i am also not saying you are necessarily this, but you see 2 words consciousness QM and post not coherent and basically say everything now i say cannot be right, so if i say world is round, world is flat is correct now. It is like murderer saying murder is wrong , you say because he is murderer, it cannot be right, so murder is now right... I found it arrogant, but i don't even care about that. I Am just tired of intellectually dishonest ppl, because again i knew about this, that there are many egregarious and just unsubstantiated claims about consciousness in relation to QM... It is just so complicated, it cannot be done justice in coupl sentences and again i am in terrible state...

 

 

The point about lack of coherence is that your "arguments" are almost impossible to discern. And frankly, there is no reason why we should all make a superhuman effort, just for a random unknown person on the internet.  So you need to get coherent somehow, either by yourself or with appropriate help, and maybe people will pay attention. 

[empleat]

3 minutes ago, exchemist said:

The point about lack of coherence is that your "arguments" are almost impossible to discern. And frankly, there is no reason why we should all make a superhuman effort, just for a random unknown person on the internet.  So you need to get coherent somehow, either by yourself or with appropriate help, and maybe people will pay attention. 

Then don't that is perfectly fine too. Also fine by me. But it would be erroneous to think incoherent = wrong. That is personal attack, you will try to say it is coherent to me, but i am delusional, or it is nonsense, maybe not, but i am used to and predict the only worst so...

You could ask me small questions, that is if you want...

again as i just explained i suffer 7 years 10/10 chronic pain and i have aphasia and brain damage, i am nowhere near state to have smooth debate about this...

EDIT: SO for example what do you think about Birth of tragedy 17. music is a priory to our experience and yet it is not abstract and thoroughly determinate and helps us make sense of any underlying situation and understand what is going on. That is very strong argument I feel like.

No one mentioned it yet.

Edited July 20, 2023 by empleat

[Genady]

1 hour ago, geordief said:

I am not sure I agree.There are ties that bind constituent parts together for a time  but when the ties are broken  the parts are separate.

And how to define the whole ?(if that is what we are aiming for)

Trump is part of the American political class but also a part of the  spoiled jerks society (for as long as he is tolerated   suffered or embraced)

Does the observable universe ever recombine  once it has expanded beyond the limits of causality?

Does it break up into independent parts?

I don't see how these examples make everything NOT be one whole. Entangled particles, for example, stay entangled regardless of the distance and without any physical interactions between them. The observable universe stays one whole by the virtue of common history.

[joigus]

1 hour ago, geordief said:

I am not sure I agree.There are ties that bind constituent parts together for a time  but when the ties are broken  the parts are separate.

And how to define the whole ?(if that is what we are aiming for)

Trump is part of the American political class but also a part of the  spoiled jerks society (for as long as he is tolerated   suffered or embraced)

Does the observable universe ever recombine  once it has expanded beyond the limits of causality?

Does it break up into independent parts?

This 'when the ties are broken' that you're articulating here is very much like what I was trying to suggest when I talked about the denial of the unseparable whole being so useful. Some situations, like entanglement, or Fermi gases/Bose condensates etc (QM) remind us of how this separability falls apart quite naturally in certain contexts. In a context like here and now --the Earth 2.7 billion years after its formation--, we tend to see the world as interacting parts. When the universe was but a fraction of a second old and in a state of plasma, it's very difficult to conceive of an entity being able to distinguish anything like parts interacting. 

Analysis is best defined as studying something in terms of its constituent parts. The Greek lysis root gives it away. Lysis = breaking up. A big part of the method of science is analysis. I don't know how else to do science.

Trying to describe the whole --whatever that means-- by means of analysis would --so it seems-- necessarily defeat the purpose, wouldn't it?

[StringJunky]

8 minutes ago, joigus said:

This 'when the ties are broken' that you're articulating here is very much like what I was trying to suggest when I talked about the denial of the unseparable whole being so useful. Some situations, like entanglement, or Fermi gases/Bose condensates etc (QM) remind us of how this separability falls apart quite naturally in certain contexts. In a context like here and now --the Earth 2.7 billion years after its formation--, we tend to see the world as interacting parts. When the universe was but a fraction of a second old and in a state of plasma, it's very difficult to conceive of an entity being able to distinguish anything like parts interacting. 

Analysis is best defined as studying something in terms of its constituent parts. The Greek lysis root gives it away. Lysis = breaking up. A big part of the method of science is analysis. I don't know how else to do science.

Trying to describe the whole --whatever that means-- by means of analysis would --so it seems-- necessarily defeat the purpose, wouldn't it?

Is the universe still contiguous with all of itself even though information is disappearing at any given point in it, given sufficient distance, between intergalactic objects via the cosmic expansion?

[exchemist]

1 hour ago, empleat said:

Then don't that is perfectly fine too. Also fine by me. But it would be erroneous to think incoherent = wrong. That is personal attack, you will try to say it is coherent to me, but i am delusional, or it is nonsense, maybe not, but i am used to and predict the only worst so...

You could ask me small questions, that is if you want...

again as i just explained i suffer 7 years 10/10 chronic pain and i have aphasia and brain damage, i am nowhere near state to have smooth debate about this...

EDIT: SO for example what do you think about Birth of tragedy 17. music is a priory to our experience and yet it is not abstract and thoroughly determinate and helps us make sense of any underlying situation and understand what is going on. That is very strong argument I feel like.

No one mentioned it yet.

No. I'm out of this now.  

[empleat]

20 minutes ago, exchemist said:

No. I'm out of this now.  

Yet you still here talking

24 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Is the universe still contiguous with all of itself even though information is disappearing at any given point in it, given sufficient distance, between intergalactic objects via the cosmic expansion?

I thought information cannot be destroyed! At least in QM. Also really have 0 idea what it would mean in context of everything being whole, or why it would present problem for this?! Information is immaterial perhaps, like Plato's forms and can get lost. But energy is always conserved.

Edited July 20, 2023 by empleat

[StringJunky]

20 minutes ago, empleat said:

Yet you still here talking

I thought information cannot be destroyed!

By that I meant the expansion rate exceeds the speed of light, beyond a certain distance. Light carries information and can't catch up as the distance increase between an object and an observer outpaces the photons, effectively 'disappearing' from the observers view. The distance is about 250mlyrs and beyond.

Edited July 20, 2023 by StringJunky

[empleat]

11 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

By that I meant the expansion rate exceeds the speed of light, beyond a certain distance. Light carries information and can't catch up as the distance increase between an object and an observer outpaces the photons, effectively 'disappearing' from the observers view

Thank you, this helps! But what about entanglement, particles can affect instantenuously each other FTL!  Also what if we look into future, or past we are just simulating how universe could look like, but don't ask me how this works (it is not also official theory, but can be disproven): https://web.archive.org/web/20220701110735/https://muellerberndt.medium.com/memetic-natural-selection-how-memes-create-all-of-reality-8be4722b6a2

EDIT: even if it disappears from obersever's view, i am not also sure how it is problem for being one whole, as i don't have really understanding of physics and i can't look now in my state... There is also no thing-in-itself, everything is whole yes, but it is like forces in relation to each other:  https://www.fau.edu/athenenoctua/pdfs/Lori Dilican.pdf EDIT: * wrong link

Edited July 20, 2023 by empleat

[Genady]

1 minute ago, empleat said:

But what about entanglement, particles can affect instantenuously each other FTL

In the entanglement, particles do not affect each other.

[empleat]

Right, act of observing does, if you have a look at one particle it will determine state of the another also. And there is also superdeterminism (in which they dont affect each other), although i am really confused and i dont even remember basics, so i don't really know how this would all work out together! I knew pure basics, but i have 7 years headaches, i couldn't learn something like QM in this state, i was prioritizing love and helping others and ethics, because it have emotional OE, it was important me to me and now i am salad  As i was too deep in abyss and i couldn't stop reading as i needed to know, and i was bored i couldn't do anything whole day ,because chronic pain, otherwise i would get healthy first, but i was so bored and i have need for cognition and ADHD i never could endure boredom especially years when i would have to just sit in a room a watch a wall a slowly from 15 minutes start working, that is not even humanly possible i dont think, it would take like months to years doing nothing harmful to myself, while slowly starting working on my health... I have absurd life like from not see even from sci-fi/fantasy i swear... When i couldn't even read and had to multitask to even endure it was 10/10 pain... I am smarter than this, i can't even explain ordeal i was through really...

Edited July 20, 2023 by empleat

[StringJunky]

9 minutes ago, empleat said:

Thank you, this helps! But what about entanglement, particles can affect instantenuously each other FTL!  Also what if we look into future, or past we are just simulating how universe could look like, but don't ask me how this works (it is not also official theory, but can be disproven): https://web.archive.org/web/20220701110735/https://muellerberndt.medium.com/memetic-natural-selection-how-memes-create-all-of-reality-8be4722b6a2

EDIT: even if it disappears from obersever's view, i am not also sure how it is problem for being one whole, as i don't have really understanding of physics and i can't look now in my state... There is also no thing-in-itself, everything is whole yes, but it is like forces in relation to each other:  https://web.archive.org/web/20220701110735/https://muellerberndt.medium.com/memetic-natural-selection-how-memes-create-all-of-reality-8be4722b6a2

It means they aren't causally connected, as far as light goes. What happens between the object and observer is not knowable from either end.

[empleat]

48 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

It means they aren't causally connected, as far as light goes. What happens between the object and observer is not knowable from either end.

OK i get this, but what does it mean for everything being one whole? When universe as we observe it might be just simulation of it! Maybe it is not expanding? https://web.archive.org/web/20220701110735/https://muellerberndt.medium.com/memetic-natural-selection-how-memes-create-all-of-reality-8be4722b6a2 How can we know for sure? I Am also one local observe within it, one part of whole, it is forces https://www.fau.edu/athenenoctua/pdfs/Lori Dilican.pdf Speaking probably nonsense now, because i can't give physical argument, you would have to tell me how this would all work together! 

HOnestly trying to explain me physics right now, will be waste of time, i am not even in state to understand 1/100 of this high level... Maybe like definitions or like basic ideas, it is really complicated, i don't even remember 99% of this stuff and don't know holistically how this would work!!!

I just hope we can change it, by changing ourselves to make life fun for everyone instead hell as it is now! And I think many ppl just because something cannot be proven they don't even go there, but this is most important thing ever! You are allowed to maximize your own potential, but you should elevate other with selfish-altruism!

1 hour ago, exchemist said:

No. I'm out of this now.  

I don't know if perhaps this isn't problem: https://www.cairn.info/revue-philosophia-scientiae-2019-1-page-185.htm

Because many smart ppl do only science or philosophy, but both need each other. Ludwig Wittgenstein said that all knowledge disconnected from other areas is useless and science started making progress but communicating with others fields too. Many gifted also are burned out doing only science and no philosophy! Smart ppl do both back and fort. Even Stephen Hawking said philosophy is dead, which itself is philosophy and created without being aware new philosophy of physics. You can be extremely intelligent, but still dumb in other areas and many ppl don't get that. "wise man is also a fool" - Arthur Schopenhauer. Intelligence is spectrum and there are always trade-offs in evolution...

Because i heard many really smart ppl in science saying philosophy is nonsense etc. but it is very ignorant, smart ppl don't exclude any area of knowledge! But then it doesn't mean they are smart/dumb, because it is spectrum... Intelligence is so complicated, that's why truly smart ppl cooperate instead compete, because they know it is needed to be intellectually humble and exchange info, one person does his part and than gives output to another which does best thing he does on it and gives it fort, or back... That is the thing a lot of ppl don't get... And Nietzsche is widely misunderstood and can appear inconsistent!

We need to constantly question everything from 0 and don't exclude any areas of knowledge (everything is connected and in relation), einstein said even scientific method is just interim tool before there is something better. And AI can predict motions of planets just from pure data without knowing physics, calculus, or any formulas...

Just saying in general, not even meant to you in specific that much, i dont know you...

PS: Ok at least no mean ppl this time here, i can respect that!

I just wish i had hacker friend and everyone in the world knew, so all this suffering could stop, i witnessed suffering of whole world, it was something more than just experiencing too much, it was sublime and i have existential feelings since i was child (which are super complex topic)! Hopelessness is worst human emotion...

Edited July 20, 2023 by empleat

[geordief]

3 hours ago, Genady said:

I don't see how these examples make everything NOT be one whole. Entangled particles, for example, stay entangled regardless of the distance and without any physical interactions between them. The observable universe stays one whole by the virtue of common history.

Can  we distinguish  between holding a view that things share a commonality according to various criteria(eg your "common history") and  the physical ability or inability for things to act in a way that demonstrates a quality of unity?

 

Your "common history" could be considered a "dead letter".I mean things happen in the present  and the past  doesn't exist except in our models of perception-or might that not be true (I think Brian Cox was musing along the lines that the past  was somehow still "out there" on one of his programmes)

[Genady]

28 minutes ago, geordief said:

physical ability or inability for things to act in a way that demonstrates a quality of unity?

What is "things"? Do you mean "events"?

[geordief]

30 minutes ago, Genady said:

What is "things"? Do you mean "events"?

I was going to write "the universe"  but  that word always needs defining and so I thought "things" might encompass everything.

But  I do see the universe as being composed of "events" or "things that happen" rather than a collection of inert objects that "things" might normally describe(everyday parlance).

 

[joigus]

3 hours ago, StringJunky said:

Is the universe still contiguous with all of itself even though information is disappearing at any given point in it, given sufficient distance, between intergalactic objects via the cosmic expansion?

I'm having problems with "contiguous with all of itself". Do you mean something like all the information about the universe stored in the last least bit of it?

There is a proposed principle that's called the holographic principle, that all the information about a region of the universe is stored in the surface. Reminds me a bit of what you're saying, but I'm not sure.