awaterpon 1 Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 In calculating escape velocity from a mass gravity force of this mass at infinity is considered to be zero an object has specific amount of kinetic energy starts with the escape velocity from mass and stops at infinity The potential energy is calculated from infinity at which force is equals zero If gravitational force at infinity equals zero then we have a real number "zero" assigned to unreachable quantity "infinity" making it reachable but in fact infinity is unreachable so we can’t assign a zero quantity of gravity for an unreal number quantity which is infinite space. The gravitational field is real and it has an end equals zero there should be an end for infinite space, however there is not an end for infinite space making gravity reaches zero while space extends to infinity. Also mathematically we can't assign an infinite value “distance” to the gravity equation resulting in zero value for gravity. Even though in reality you can't reach infinity it could be a thought experiment that is if gravity effects decreases continuously we have a limit for that decrement which is zero effect then gravity effect in fact has a limit but space doesn't so what happens at that limit when gravity force equals zero space would still be increasing. For each mass it has a real number range of gravity this range is increasing continuously with the speed of light c , beyond that its gravitational force doesn't exist and it is still spreading out and making curvature to space Mass curvature for space is a process it starts at the existence of mass continues with the speed of light c and will never reach an end. You can’t start a process and have its effect at infinite distances instantly, this process started as an event “mass existence” and has its effect gradually “spreading out with speed of light c”.Mass effect can’t reach infinity instantly. The universe started at a moment in the past and all masses existed at a moment. Infinity doesn't have a limit it is continuous if mass bend continuous space-time, an event “mass existence" can't start and have its effect at infinite distance “no limits" space can't be bent infinitely because infinity is unreachable mass can't bend a point in space at infinite distance since this point can't be reached. There are places in space still unbent that prove gravity has a range extendable gradually with the speed of light c. A mathematical explanation: The existing fact says gravity is available every where in space to infinity and approaches zero without reaching it while space approaches infinity In the gravitational equation the force is inversely proportional to the distance, as the distance gets bigger and bigger the force approaches zero. We can notice that force approaches zero “a real number” but space approaches infinity” unreal number” In the number line when moving to the right from for instance the number 3 to the number 4 there is a possibility of infinite numbers greater than 3 and less than 4 instead of reaching 4 a moving object could move infinitely to reach 4 and will never reach it. it will move for instance from 3.4 to 3.49 to 3.499 to infinity regardless its speed it won’t reach the 4 however in fact an object will jump from a number to a nearby number it will jump from 3 to 4 gravity jumps to zero while space continues to infinity. Then gravity approaches zero without reaching it is not logical .gravity jumps from value to value if it is not, a value of for instance 3g won't reach 2g since it would move to 2.9999999→infinity without decreasing to 2g if gravity jumps from number to number it would jump to zero while space continues to infinity An object can't exist at infinite distance but there still exists zero effect of gravity for that object although there is not a place for it to obtain zero effect. So there is non-existence of gravity at a point in space" logically gravity decreases and that has an end which is the smallest number for gravity i.e the zero" but if space is infinite where is this point of non-existence of gravity ? Think of a number line of 1 meter length it is divided into units it starts from 4 at the beginning and zero at the end. Let’s imagine gravity value close to mass being 4 and at some distance being zero or the end of gravity range. Now think of another number line a bigger line of 4 meters length also has an end point of zero unit. The existing fact means we have a number line of length infinity and two ends one is a specific number and the other is the zero this is impossible a number line equals infinite length doesn't have end points gravity has end points one of them equals zero. The Newtonian equation of gravity is valid , all other equations of potential energy ,etc are valid the escape velocity is true. In my concept gravity decreases with the increment in distance my concept has the same values as we have in current view” g=9.8 m/s/s on earth surface both in current view and in my concept” the difference is that the equations are applied to a specific range beyond that range the equations are not applicable beyond that range the gravity value drops suddenly to zero value. Link to post Share on other sites

Ghideon 461 Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 I did not manage to understand all of the descriptions, but some of it sounds like some variant of Zeno's paradoxes; wikipedia.org/Zeno's_paradoxes/Achilles_and_the_tortoise Are you suggesting that due to limitations in formal treatments of the mathematics* it must follow that gravity physically must drop to zero at some distance? When I apply (my rather limited) skill I do not see the issues with the formulas. Also; is this some kind of general law you are suggesting? There are other equations that are dependant of range, for instance Coulomb’s Law. *) for limits, infinity, real numbers and other concepts in OP Link to post Share on other sites

Strange 4273 Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 2 hours ago, awaterpon said: If gravitational force at infinity equals zero then we have a real number "zero" assigned to unreachable quantity "infinity" making it reachable but in fact infinity is unreachable so we can’t assign a zero quantity of gravity for an unreal number quantity which is infinite space. You need to learn some basic maths before making silly statements like this. 2 hours ago, awaterpon said: There are places in space still unbent that prove gravity has a range extendable gradually with the speed of light c. That would only be “proof” if you actually had evidence of such places. (And even then it wouldn’t be proof because nothing is proved in science) But it is almost certainly false because, as far as we know, the universe has always been full of matter so there is nowhere without gravity. 2 hours ago, awaterpon said: The universe started at a moment in the past and all masses existed at a moment. Infinity doesn't have a limit it is continuous if mass bend continuous space-time, an event “mass existence" can't start and have its effect at infinite distance “no limits" space can't be bent infinitely because infinity is unreachable mass can't bend a point in space at infinite distance since this point can't be reached. I have no idea what that means. But it seems to be a series of false statements. There is no evidence that the universe started. Infinity can be continuous; eg. the real numbers. The only place infinite curvature occurs (mathematically) is where the equations are not valid (a singularity). 2 hours ago, awaterpon said: A mathematical explanation: There is no mathematics in your explanation. 2 hours ago, awaterpon said: In the gravitational equation the force is inversely proportional to the distance Wrong. 2 hours ago, awaterpon said: In the number line when moving to the right from for instance the number 3 to the number 4 there is a possibility of infinite numbers greater than 3 and less than 4 instead of reaching 4 a moving object could move infinitely to reach 4 and will never reach it. it will move for instance from 3.4 to 3.49 to 3.499 to infinity regardless its speed it won’t reach the 4 however in fact an object will jump from a number to a nearby number it will jump from 3 to 4 gravity jumps to zero while space continues to infinity. This obviously nonsense as objects move continuously from place; they don’t jump one inch at a time. 2 hours ago, awaterpon said: The Newtonian equation of gravity is valid It is for many cases, but not always. 2 hours ago, awaterpon said: the difference is that the equations are applied to a specific range beyond that range the equations are not applicable beyond that range the gravity value drops suddenly to zero value. Then you need to: 1. Show your equation; 2. Tell us at what distance the gravity drops to zero; and, most importantly 3. Provide some evidence that your model is correct. Link to post Share on other sites

awaterpon 1 Posted April 6, 2019 Author Share Posted April 6, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Strange said: 1. Show your equation; 2. Tell us at what distance the gravity drops to zero; and, most importantly 3. Provide some evidence that your model is correct. 1) There is not an equation it is a discovery and new fact.The Newtonian equation is applicable. 2) I said the range is changeable with the speed of light c. 3) What is the evidence that gravity is unlimited and available everywhere including infinity so that I present mine.I have a series of arguments. Edited April 6, 2019 by awaterpon Link to post Share on other sites

Strange 4273 Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 1 hour ago, awaterpon said: 1) There is not an equation it is a discovery and new fact.The Newtonian equation is applicable. It is not a "fact" unless you have evidence to support it. And if the Newtonian equation applies, then it is not "new" and not a "discovery". 1 hour ago, awaterpon said: 2) I said the range is changeable with the speed of light c. And you need to provide some evidence. 1 hour ago, awaterpon said: 3) What is the evidence that gravity is unlimited and available everywhere including infinity so that I present mine.I have a series of arguments. No, you can't shift the burden of proof. You are the one claiming a "new discovery" so you are the one who has to provide evidence. (But the evidence for the Newtonian model is the fact that we can correctly calculate most gravitational interactions with it. Apart from a few cases where the greater accuracy of GR is required.) Link to post Share on other sites

awaterpon 1 Posted April 7, 2019 Author Share Posted April 7, 2019 22 hours ago, Strange said: But the evidence for the Newtonian model is the fact that we can correctly calculate most gravitational interactions with it. But still part of it is not proven.The part which says gravity is everywhere in space How an event"mass existence" bend space suddenly at infinity without a gradual process ?This is physically wrong .if we suppose space was unbent at a time and started to be bent by mass how this infinite space was bent suddenly at infinite distance? the curvature shoud transfer through space to reach infinite distance and not a sudden process mass exitence can't affect infinite space at an instance this physically wrong. "Think of a number line of 1 meter length it is divided into units it starts from 4 at the beginning and zero at the end. Let’s imagine gravity value close to mass being 4 and at some distance being zero or the end of gravity range. Now think of another number line a bigger line of 4 meters length also has an end point of zero unit. The existing fact means we have a number line of length infinity and two ends one is a specific number and the other is the zero this is impossible a number line equals infinite length doesn't have end points gravity has end points one of them equals zero." A number line of infinite distance "space" can't have end points but gravity has end points one of them is zero how that is possible? this also mathematically wrong. Think of these arguments as questions , if there are not answers then at least the existing fact is wrong regardless of my discovery. Link to post Share on other sites

Strange 4273 Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 38 minutes ago, awaterpon said: But still part of it is not proven. The part which says gravity is everywhere in space No theory is ever proven. That is not how science works. But if you have evidence that gravity stops at some point, then present it. 39 minutes ago, awaterpon said: Think of these arguments as questions , if there are not answers then at least the existing fact is wrong regardless of my discovery. As you are unable/unwilling to provide any evidence to support your "theory" should we ask for the thread to be closed? Then you use this forum to ask some questions and fill the gaps in your understanding, instead of spouting nonsense. Link to post Share on other sites

swansont 7547 Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 55 minutes ago, awaterpon said: But still part of it is not proven.The part which says gravity is everywhere in space How an event"mass existence" bend space suddenly at infinity without a gradual process ?This is physically wrong .if we suppose space was unbent at a time and started to be bent by mass how this infinite space was bent suddenly at infinite distance? the curvature shoud transfer through space to reach infinite distance and not a sudden process mass exitence can't affect infinite space at an instance this physically wrong.. Fortunately, instant propagation is not part of the theory. But that’s GR (curvature), not Newton. If gravity ceases at some distance, what is that distance? Link to post Share on other sites

awaterpon 1 Posted April 7, 2019 Author Share Posted April 7, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, swansont said: If gravity ceases at some distance, what is that distance? The range is changeable it started with zero value at the moment of mass existence and continued to increase after then,I can compare with light, light spread out with the "speed c" its intensity "gravity" decreases but never reaches zero and the distance " range" increases but never reach infinity.But spreading light from source has a particular extendable range beyond that range it doesn't exist For instance earth mass's gravity still spread ou today to infinite distances withe speed c its gravity continues to decrease but never reach zero and its range extends without bound. Edited April 7, 2019 by awaterpon Link to post Share on other sites

swansont 7547 Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 1 hour ago, awaterpon said: The range is changeable it started with zero value at the moment of mass existence and continued to increase after then,I can compare with light, light spread out with the "speed c" its intensity "gravity" decreases but never reaches zero and the distance " range" increases but never reach infinity.But spreading light from source has a particular extendable range beyond that range it doesn't exist For instance earth mass's gravity still spread ou today to infinite distances withe speed c its gravity continues to decrease but never reach zero and its range extends without bound. There is no “moment of mass existence” Energy is conserved, so mass does not just pop into being. However, in a very basic sense, gravity behaves as you describe, despite your dubious mathematical claims 1 Link to post Share on other sites

awaterpon 1 Posted April 7, 2019 Author Share Posted April 7, 2019 (edited) 31 minutes ago, swansont said: There is no “moment of mass existence” Energy is conserved, so mass does not just pop into being. It is somehow to calculate the range of zero length at some begining 31 minutes ago, swansont said: However, in a very basic sense, gravity behaves as you describe What I should do now with my new discovery? Edited April 7, 2019 by awaterpon Link to post Share on other sites

Strange 4273 Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 49 minutes ago, awaterpon said: It is somehow to calculate the range of zero length at some begining What beginning? 49 minutes ago, awaterpon said: What I should do now with my new discovery? What new discovery? Link to post Share on other sites

swansont 7547 Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 1 hour ago, awaterpon said: It is somehow to calculate the range of zero length at some begining Zero length? 1 hour ago, awaterpon said: What I should do now with my new discovery? To the extent that you are correct, it’s already part of GR Link to post Share on other sites

awaterpon 1 Posted April 7, 2019 Author Share Posted April 7, 2019 (edited) 42 minutes ago, swansont said: To the extent that you are correct, it’s already part of GR General relativity doesn't say gravity spread out with the speed of light c.It doesn't say gravity has a limited range.I discovered all these . Edited April 7, 2019 by awaterpon Link to post Share on other sites

Ghideon 461 Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, awaterpon said: General relativity doesn't say gravity spread out with the speed of light c Gravitational waves are disturbances in the curvature (fabric) of spacetime, generated by accelerated masses, that propagate as waves outward from their source at the speed of light. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_wave Edited April 7, 2019 by Ghideon format Link to post Share on other sites

awaterpon 1 Posted April 7, 2019 Author Share Posted April 7, 2019 (edited) Relativity didn't say something about the availability of gravity at infinity in fact it left it for Newtonian view unchanged.The newtonian view is gravity is everywhere Edited April 7, 2019 by awaterpon Link to post Share on other sites

StringJunky 2316 Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 11 minutes ago, awaterpon said: Relativity didn't say something about the availability of gravity at infinity in fact it left it for Newtonian view unchanged.The newtonian view is gravity is everywhere Relativity doesn't usurp Newtonian gravity in every respect. Relativistic gravity has infinite range too because it is spacetime, which is a continuum; it will diminish inverse-squarely as far as you like. Link to post Share on other sites

Strange 4273 Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 28 minutes ago, awaterpon said: General relativity doesn't say gravity spread out with the speed of light c. It does. And this has been confirmed by the detection of gravitational waves. Link to post Share on other sites

awaterpon 1 Posted April 7, 2019 Author Share Posted April 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, StringJunky said: Relativity doesn't usurp Newtonian gravity in every respect. Relativistic gravity has infinite range too because it is spacetime, which is a continuum; it will diminish inverse-squarely as far as you like. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites

beecee 567 Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 1 hour ago, awaterpon said: Relativity didn't say something about the availability of gravity at infinity in fact it left it for Newtonian view unchanged.The newtonian view is gravity is everywhere GR encompasses Newtonian, and extends the parameters of applicability with more accuracy and precision. Newton told us that gravity is attractive between two masses, and falls off as the inverse square of the distance between them to infinity, but he didn't know why...Einstein showed that mass warps spacetime and that is why the apparent attraction between masses occurs. 1 Link to post Share on other sites

awaterpon 1 Posted April 11, 2019 Author Share Posted April 11, 2019 On 4/7/2019 at 11:56 AM, swansont said: Zero length? If it still spreading out there should be a beginning for that spreading , however the mass existence is philosophical Link to post Share on other sites

swansont 7547 Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 2 minutes ago, awaterpon said: If it still spreading out there should be a beginning for that spreading , however the mass existence is philosophical Big bang theory does not go back to time zero, so it would not go back to length zero, and physics generally does not do well with singularities, so models like gravity won't work at zero length. There are times when you can use a limit for a variable going to zero (or infinity) but that's doesn't tell you a lot when the result diverges. Link to post Share on other sites

awaterpon 1 Posted April 11, 2019 Author Share Posted April 11, 2019 On 4/6/2019 at 3:43 AM, Ghideon said: Also; is this some kind of general law you are suggesting? There are other equations that are dependant of range, for instance Coulomb’s Law. It should be for both coulomb's law and magnetism. For a wire when the circuit is closed the magnetic field starts to spread with the speed of light an experiment could be performed to determine whether magnetic field is already available at a point or it will reach that point after a time"it is not logical that the magnetic field already at infinity since we had a current started to flow at specific moment and shouldn't be available before that moment ,so how it would be available everywhere at an instant?" Link to post Share on other sites

Strange 4273 Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 6 minutes ago, awaterpon said: however the mass existence is philosophical What does that mean? Mass is a physical property that we can measure si don’t think there is any doubt about its existence. Link to post Share on other sites

awaterpon 1 Posted April 11, 2019 Author Share Posted April 11, 2019 16 minutes ago, Strange said: What does that mean? Mass is a physical property that we can measure si don’t think there is any doubt about its existence. That mass existed from nothing and started to curve space-time from zero range to its today ranges for each mass. That what I meant by: "The existence of mass causes none-existence in space-time cause space-time to displace and bend" Link to post Share on other sites

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