MarieR

Christian numerology

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On 1/24/2019 at 7:00 PM, Strange said:

It is an interesting question: why do so many ancient writing systems use letters for numbers?

After all, the first inscriptions (before full writing systems developed) were generally basic accounts or stocktaking records: how many sheep or jars of oil were being delivered. So the most important part was the numbers.

And the oldest writing system (Sumerian) had symbols for numbers as well as a positional system (and a symbol/placeholder for zero).

So it seems odd that things went "backwards" from there. Presumably we can blame the Egyptians (because we got our nearly all writing systems from there) but that doesn't really explain anything.

From what I read it remains an open question. There is an outstanding paper but in French http://culturemath.ens.fr/histoire des maths/htm/Verdan/Verdan.htm

Lot of information and no answer since the author has exactly the same question: Encore une fois, il y a peu d'arguments qui permettraient d'établir l'existence d'une ou de plusieurs numérations antérieures à l'adoption de l'alphabet. Est-il toutefois irréaliste d'envisager cette éventualité? Une société analphabète peut très bien se servir d'un système numéral simple. ( Once again, there is little argument that establish the existence of one or more pre-alphabet counting system. However, is it unrealistic to consider this possibility? An illiterate society can very easily use a simple numerical system.)

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A person would probably but perhaps not have to know numbers very well to prove or disprove numerology, however, a relative and friend of mine of very high IQ, believes in it, and says that it has huge powers,  and says he understands it, yet he himself is almost bedridden at a relatively early age, 70s.  So, he either doesn't understand it, or it's not the basis of the healing described in the bible, whether old testament or new.   I haven't looked into it, but believe it could be real, and intended to persuade men of high mathematical education that they should search the bible for further truths.

On 1/21/2019 at 1:12 PM, MarieR said:

Yes I saw your posts. Though I never heard of the theory of two texts, one written in Greek, the other in Hebrew. I always thought the Septuagint was a translation from a Hebrew form of the text. 

 

On 1/24/2019 at 12:00 PM, Strange said:

After all, the first inscriptions (before full writing systems developed) were generally basic accounts or stocktaking records: how many sheep or jars of oil were being delivered. So the most important part was the numbers.

 

I can't say I agree.  I'd like you to show some documentation.  One of the Hebrew letters for God's name, for instance, being the shape of tent pegs of that day.  

On 1/21/2019 at 12:25 PM, studiot said:

When my learned friend retired from the Bar he decided he wanted to study the Bible so he took an MSc from London University.

In order to read the existing documents, he had to learn both ancient Greek and Ancient Hebrew forst (he already knew Latin)

 

 

 

All modern examinations of the earliest biblical documents are said to show them written in three languages, Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic.  Aramaic is said to be the language of the 'newer' old testament prophets after the 'Old' prophets Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekia etc, the 'newer' old testament prophets ending of course with the new testament, which I believe from much study to be written entirely in Greek.  Some bible students say parts of the new testament also were written in Aramaic.  However, if the God of the bible is as described in the bible, he doesn't need us to study ancient languages, because he wants his Word known, and the easiest way of that is to use his infinite power to have such a translation written for every language even as that language arises from the dispersal from the tower of Babel.  I accept that a complete study of the ancient language and manuscripts will, however, verify the accuracy of at least one of the translations in each language, some other translations being adulterated to strengthen commercial or imperialistic power.  

On 1/21/2019 at 11:18 AM, studiot said:

 

1) Exactly the point I was leading to.

There are many 'Bibles' The one we commonly refer to was introduced over 2000 years after the first words of the Old Testament were written, although I'm not sure how much was written and how much oral tradition. I will have to ask my expert friend. Any 'Bible' version is really only a floder for a series of differnt documents from many eras and sources within that time.

2) There were two versions of the 'original'  text, that did not always correspond. This was because it was written in two centres. Alexandria in Ancient Greek and Jerusalem in Ancient Hebrew, which were a long way apart in those days. So news and versions took time to compare. We are still deciphering scrolls today. Our King James one came from the Alexandria documents.

Some of the original original texts were written in Babylon during the captivity.

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20 minutes ago, nymnpseudo said:

All modern examinations of the earliest biblical documents are said to show them written in three languages, Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic.  Aramaic is said to be the language of the 'newer' old testament prophets after the 'Old' prophets Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekia etc, the 'newer' old testament prophets ending of course with the new testament, which I believe from much study to be written entirely in Greek.  Some bible students say parts of the new testament also were written in Aramaic.  However, if the God of the bible is as described in the bible, he doesn't need us to study ancient languages, because he wants his Word known, and the easiest way of that is to use his infinite power to have such a translation written for every language even as that language arises from the dispersal from the tower of Babel.  I accept that a complete study of the ancient language and manuscripts will, however, verify the accuracy of at least one of the translations in each language, some other translations being adulterated to strengthen commercial or imperialistic power.  

Some of the original original texts were written in Babylon during the captivity.

I'm sure there was a great deal more too it than my extremely brief overview.

I would offer a correction

I did say ancient Greek and Ancient Hebrew. They are not the same as the modern versions.

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6 minutes ago, studiot said:

I'm sure there was a great deal more too it than my extremely brief overview.

I would offer a correction

I did say ancient Greek and Ancient Hebrew. They are not the same as the modern versions.

Aramaic is an ancient as well as modern language, and a large part of the old testament is said by top professionals to have been written in it.   Some scholars with restricted study also insist parts of the new testament were written in it.  

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1 hour ago, nymnpseudo said:

Aramaic is an ancient as well as modern language, and a large part of the old testament is said by top professionals to have been written in it.   Some scholars with restricted study also insist parts of the new testament were written in it.  

I wan't aware that there is a modern version of Aramaic. Thank you I will look it up.

But rather than being incompatible with what I said before your various posts serve to reinforce it.

On 1/21/2019 at 4:18 PM, studiot said:

1) Exactly the point I was leading to.

There are many 'Bibles' The one we commonly refer to was introduced over 2000 years after the first words of the Old Testament were written, although I'm not sure how much was written and how much oral tradition. I will have to ask my expert friend. Any 'Bible' version is really only a floder for a series of differnt documents from many eras and sources within that time.

2) There were two versions of the 'original'  text, that did not always correspond. This was because it was written in two centres. Alexandria in Ancient Greek and Jerusalem in Ancient Hebrew, which were a long way apart in those days. So news and versions took time to compare. We are still deciphering scrolls today. Our King James one came from the Alexandria documents.

 

Until my friend explains this history, I wasn't aware of that either.

Particularly the Alexandria connection and the fact that the 'Bible' is not one book but a collection from different places and times.

Different 'Bibles' contain or omit different individual books.

 

But this is about numerology (a word that post dates pretty well any Bible) and I have offered my thoughts on where there are actually mathematically sound numbers.

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2 hours ago, nymnpseudo said:

however, a relative and friend of mine of very high IQ, believes in it, and says that it has huge powers,

Just goes to show that having a high IQ (whatever that means) does not protect one from idiotic beliefs. There are plenty of Nobel Prize winners who have believed ridiculous things, for example.

2 hours ago, nymnpseudo said:

I can't say I agree.  I'd like you to show some documentation.  One of the Hebrew letters for God's name, for instance, being the shape of tent pegs of that day.  

Feel free to show some evidence that:

1. There are full writing systems that predate merchants' records of accounts/goods

2. That there is a Hebrew letter derived from a symbol meaning tent pegs.

I look forward to seeing this.

2 hours ago, nymnpseudo said:

However, if the God of the bible is as described in the bible, he doesn't need us to study ancient languages, because he wants his Word known, and the easiest way of that is to use his infinite power to have such a translation written for every language even as that language arises from the dispersal from the tower of Babel.

So this god made everyone speak different languages after the tower of Babel, but then should have made magic translations into every language? That makes no sense. Why didn't she just make everyone speak the same language?

And it clear that there are errors in the various translations (as well as human choices about which bits to include and exclude) so they were not done by a god with infinite power.

2 hours ago, nymnpseudo said:

Aramaic is an ancient as well as modern language

The modern language is, of course, very different from the ancient language. I doubt a speaker of modern Aramaic could read Ancient Aramaic without studying it as a special subject. After all, different dialects of modern Aramaic are not mutually comprehensible.

 

 

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On 2/12/2019 at 4:44 PM, Strange said:

Just goes to show that having a high IQ (whatever that means) does not protect one from idiotic beliefs. There are plenty of Nobel Prize winners who have believed ridiculous things, for example.

Feel free to show some evidence that:

1. There are full writing systems that predate merchants' records of accounts/goods

2. That there is a Hebrew letter derived from a symbol meaning tent pegs.

I look forward to seeing this.

So this god made everyone speak different languages after the tower of Babel, but then should have made magic translations into every language? That makes no sense. Why didn't she just make everyone speak the same language?

And it clear that there are errors in the various translations (as well as human choices about which bits to include and exclude) so they were not done by a god with infinite power.

The modern language is, of course, very different from the ancient language. I doubt a speaker of modern Aramaic could read Ancient Aramaic without studying it as a special subject. After all, different dialects of modern Aramaic are not mutually comprehensible.

 

 

An idiotic belief is not proven idiotic very often, it may merely be proven to acquire consensus.

Tent peg .. https://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_One/Aleph-Bet/Vav/vav.html

God confused language to keep man from building a tower to heaven instead of accepting his grace through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ at Golgotha, understood in every language by those who believe.

Please point out one such error in, for instance, the American Douay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douay–Rheims_Bible or KIng James.  I agree that many translations have errors, deliberate errors in fact.  

Why is there such difficulty, in your opinion, in biblical translation, when you express no such difficulty regarding translations of clay Babylonian tablets or language of the conquered civilizations in Mexico and South America?

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1 hour ago, nymnpseudo said:

It says it "looks like" a tent peg, not that it means or is derived from the symbol for tent peg. They correctly say that it means "hook".

1 hour ago, nymnpseudo said:

Why is there such difficulty, in your opinion, in biblical translation, when you express no such difficulty regarding translations of clay Babylonian tablets or language of the conquered civilizations in Mexico and South America?

There is equal likelihood of errors in both. That is, presumably, one of the reasons why the parts of the Bible copied from older Sumerian texts differ from the originals.

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6 minutes ago, Strange said:

It says it "looks like" a tent peg, not that it means or is derived from the symbol for tent peg. They correctly say that it means "hook".

There is equal likelihood of errors in both. That is, presumably, one of the reasons why the parts of the Bible copied from older Sumerian texts differ from the originals.

Tent peg .. what I showed was only one source.  I've read others directly attributing the shape of the letter to the tent pegs, the shape of many tent pegs in use today being identical or similar.  The shape would definitely NOT serve as a hook, whether to another hook, or placed through a 'u' or 'o' fastener .. it would easily slip out. Also, the peg is symbolic in keeping your dwelling from being blow away .. pointing to faith in God's name.

Yours is the first time I have heard from anyone, anywhere about Sumerian biblical texts.   The story of Gilgamesh is not from the bible, though there is a Sumerian flood story similar to Noah's, and in fact identical to many ancient histories around the world.   Abraham came out of Ur of the Chaldees to begin his trek to the Promised Land,  Ur at that time a very late era Sumerian city.  "The Gilgamesh flood myth is a flood myth in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Many scholars believe that the flood myth was added to Tablet XI in the "standard version" of the Gilgamesh Epic by an editor who used the flood story from the Epic of Atrahasis.[1] A short reference to the flood myth is also present in the much older Sumerian Gilgamesh poems, from which the later Babylonian versions drew much of their inspiration and subject matter."

When the Jews were in captivity in Babylon, they are said to have written in scripture in Aramaic, though I don't see why that is reported, but in any case Aramaic and Hebrew being similar anyway.   Aramaic is said by many authorities to have been the language of the prophets immediately preceding the New Testament. 

If you like, I will try to explain what you may think are errors in the Old or New Testaments in any of the versions. 

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13 hours ago, nymnpseudo said:

Tent peg .. what I showed was only one source.  I've read others directly attributing the shape of the letter to the tent pegs, the shape of many tent pegs in use today being identical or similar. 

Then they are wrong. It is entirely coincidental that it looks vaguely like a peg.

13 hours ago, nymnpseudo said:

The shape would definitely NOT serve as a hook, whether to another hook, or placed through a 'u' or 'o' fastener .. it would easily slip out.

The letter A doesn't look like an ox, either.

The shape of the original Egyptian character looks like a plausible hook - but that probably evolved from an earlier symbol, as well.

13 hours ago, nymnpseudo said:

Also, the peg is symbolic in keeping your dwelling from being blow away .. pointing to faith in God's name.

Don'r be stupid. The writing system wasn't invented by a god.

(This is off topic but it is obviously more interesting than numerology, which can only be believed by people who are really stupid.)

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10 hours ago, Strange said:

Then they are wrong. It is entirely coincidental that it looks vaguely like a peg.

The letter A doesn't look like an ox, either.

The shape of the original Egyptian character looks like a plausible hook - but that probably evolved from an earlier symbol, as well.

Don'r be stupid. The writing system wasn't invented by a god.

(This is off topic but it is obviously more interesting than numerology, which can only be believed by people who are really stupid.)

     It doesn't take a god or God to work symbolism into numbers or letters.  The number for 'one' for instance is simple and uncomplicated as is the quantity .. 1, normally written without the little hook on the top. 2 is a little more complicated, and two of anything is more complicated than one.  3 is moreso, 4, 5 and 6 more complicated in structure and also because the numbers reverse direction, 7 complicated not only because it reverses direction from the reversed direction but it becomes complex if not written properly as it can look like a 1 or a 9, the number 8 is very complicated, a proper 9 is complicated as the spherical part has to be done correctly .. so, the more complex the amount of items, the generally more complex the figure representing the number becomes.  This seems to arise from logic.    

The topic of this thread itself is complicated.  Why is it titled Christian numerology, when the same proposition also applies to the Hebrew and Aramaic Old Testament?  

11 hours ago, Strange said:

The shape of the original Egyptian character looks like a plausible hook - but that probably evolved from an earlier symbol, as well.

(This is off topic but it is obviously more interesting than numerology, which can only be believed by people who are really stupid.)

As, Strange, you are a moderator, and find this discussion interesting enough to continue, though it can be seen as off topic, though the letters of the alphabets under discussion have numerical value, I will continue as far as allowed. 

Hebrew definitely does not come from Egyptian .. that is easily found in ALL sources.

Regarding symbolism of Hebrew letters, the letters contain much more than symbolism, each has a specific meaning.  I can't easily find the tent peg letter right now, but an example:

The Hebrew Alphabet - The Letter Gimel (ג)
The letter Gimel is the third letter in the Hebrew alphabet. The letter Gimel is actually the source of the Greek letter Gamma, as you can see by the similarities in the two letters’ names. The English letters “C” and “G” are ultimately derived from Gimel, as well. While the name of the letter remains a mystery, some have speculated that it comes from the word “gamal” meaning “camel” (the English word “camel” is actually derived from “gamal”) because some say the letter looks like a camel. Whether or not the letter actually looks like a camel, you can use this trick to try to help you learn the Hebrew alphabet and to improve your vocabulary as you try to improve your control of the Hebrew language. While Gimel is generally pronounced like the “G” in “gap”, some dialects pronounce it differently in certain cases. Some Yemenite Jews, for example, pronounce it as more of a “J” in specific cases.

The shape of the Gimel also reminds of us something else. It looks like a man in motion. A nice lesson from the Jewish teachings actually pertains to this aspect of the Gimel. In Hebrew, the word “gomel”, which begins with and sounds like the letter Gimel, means a “benefactor” or someone who gives to others. The letter which comes after Gimel in the Hebrew alphabet is the letter Dalet, which is the first letter of the word “dal” meaning “weak”. According to this teaching, the Gimel, the benefactor, is walking towards the Dalet who is weak. From this, we can learn that if we have something to give, we should always be quickly going towards those who are in need in order to help them.

Due to the fact that the letter Gimel is the third letter in the alphabet, it has the numerical value of three. In mystical teachings, three represents stability and is significant in a number of ways in Biblical teachings. There are three patriarchs, for example (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob). Another well-known ancient Jewish teaching says that the world stands on three things: Torah, work (prayer) and acts of loving kindness.      http://www.hebrewtoday.com/content/hebrew-alphabet-letter-gimel-ג

 

 

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1 hour ago, nymnpseudo said:

Hebrew definitely does not come from Egyptian .. that is easily found in ALL sources.

We are not talking about Hebrew, the language, but the Hebrew alphabet which, like nearly all the alphabets use in Europe and the Middle East.

1 hour ago, nymnpseudo said:

The letter Gimel is actually the source of the Greek letter Gamma, as you can see by the similarities in the two letters’ names.

Wrong. The Greek alphabet comes from Phoenician, which is derived from Aramaic.

1 hour ago, nymnpseudo said:

While the name of the letter remains a mystery, some have speculated that it comes from the word “gamal” meaning “camel” (the English word “camel” is actually derived from “gamal”) because some say the letter looks like a camel.

This is what is known as "folk etymology" (or, less formally, bollocks). The letter derives from Egyptian giml, which means a hunting club.

 

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Just now, Strange said:

We are not talking about Hebrew, the language, but the Hebrew alphabet which, like nearly all the alphabets use in Europe and the Middle East.

Wrong. The Greek alphabet comes from Phoenician, which is derived from Aramaic.

This is what is known as "folk etymology" (or, less formerly, bollocks). The letter derives from Egyptian giml, which means a hunting club.

 

Yes of course the alphabet and language in Hebrew though are basically the same preserved through thousands of years because of their esteem and necessity for their Torah and Prophets.  There is no other language that I know of that carries that significance.  

The Aramaic is the form of Hebrew which came out of the Babylonian captivity .. which is why the later books of the Old Testament were written in it (or are said to have been written in it.)  Aramaic was in wide use in the middle east.  "Aramaic is a language or group of languages belonging to the Semitic subfamily of the Afroasiatic language family. More specifically, it is part of the Northwest Semitic group, which also includes the Canaanite languages such as Hebrew and Phoenician."  From Wiki.

If you can see similarities between Egyptian hieroglyphics and the Hebrew or Aramitic please point them out.  https://www.google.com/search?q=source+of+ancient+egyptian+alphabet&rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA807CA807&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=h6CQV4KBmdQNoM%3A%2CEm5cFpMPY36_CM%2C_&usg=AI4_-kROVjc1NFT3LmOYtCG9ArxmO_ucJQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj2lpSMxL7gAhXr6YMKHQwRAwQQ9QEwD3oECAAQCg#imgrc=6JKBLmMTB24MwM:

Image of the Phoenician language:  https://www.ancient.eu/image/5215/phoenician-oblelisk-from-cyprus/   ...  nothing whatever similar to Hieroglyphics by any imagination.  And vastly different from Hebrew. 

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12 hours ago, Strange said:

Then they are wrong. It is entirely coincidental that it looks vaguely like a peg.

The letter A doesn't look like an ox, either.

The shape of the original Egyptian character looks like a plausible hook - but that probably evolved from an earlier symbol, as well.

Don'r be stupid. The writing system wasn't invented by a god.

(This is off topic but it is obviously more interesting than numerology, which can only be believed by people who are really stupid.)

Numerology! Like Astrology is based on myth, and ignorance. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerology

"Numerology is any belief in the divine or mysticalrelationship between a number and one or more coinciding events.[2] It is also the study of the numerical value of the letters in words, names, and ideas. It is often associated with the paranormal, alongside astrology and similar divinatory arts.[3]

Despite the long history of numerological ideas, the word "numerology" is not recorded in English before c.1907.[4]

The term numerologist can be used for those who place faith in numerical patterns and draw pseudo-scientific inferences from them, even if those people do not practice traditional numerology. For example, in his 1997 book Numerology: Or What Pythagoras Wrought, mathematician Underwood Dudley uses the term to discuss practitioners of the Elliott wave principle of stock market analysis."

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Interesting how these searches for discovery unveil interesting things, like how the ancient Persian language seems to be the source of modern golf tees.   http://www.ancientscripts.com/oldpersian.html             As in golf, numbers were important, and it is said the each Persian letter also had a number value, similar to Hebrew.  The Jews of course entered Persia as prisoners, but a King of Persia chose three Jewish men as his chief rulers.   

Was it the Jews who brought their numerical value for alphabet letters to the Persian language?   And what influence does this have on numerology?  Let us not fore sake this search!      https://www.lds.org/study/manual/old-testament-student-manual-kings-malachi/enrichment-j?lang=eng 

23 minutes ago, beecee said:

Numerology! Like Astrology is based on myth, and ignorance. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerology

"Numerology is any belief in the divine or mysticalrelationship between a number and one or more coinciding events.[2] It is also the study of the numerical value of the letters in words, names, and ideas. It is often associated with the paranormal, alongside astrology and similar divinatory arts.[3]

Despite the long history of numerological ideas, the word "numerology" is not recorded in English before c.1907.[4]

The term numerologist can be used for those who place faith in numerical patterns and draw pseudo-scientific inferences from them, even if those people do not practice traditional numerology. For example, in his 1997 book Numerology: Or What Pythagoras Wrought, mathematician Underwood Dudley uses the term to discuss practitioners of the Elliott wave principle of stock market analysis."

Okay, if you don't like the word numerology, how about the Jewish Gematria?      Or, why we say "Hi" to each other.

The most common and well known example of Gematria is the Hebrew word Chai (“living”, Hebrew Hai) which is both a symbol and word meaning “life”. In English the word Chai is pronounced ‘hi’, as though one were offering a friendly salutation. The word Chai consists of the Hebrew letters Chet (het n) and Yod. Applying a set system of Jewish Gematria (“Ragil” the basic method or “Mispar gadol” the Great Number method) to the Hebrew letters Chet ( which is given a value of 8) and Yud  (which is given a value of 10) results in the calculated value of 18 or 10 + 8.

Hebrew Chai 18 Life gematria

As a result of  this Gematria find, the number eighteen is oft viewed as a positive sign or OT of “good luck”. In Judaism, the number 18 has come to represent the ‘good of things to come’, or “ life and good fortune‘. For this reason Jews oft wear charms or emblems which depict this popular symbol.

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24 minutes ago, nymnpseudo said:

Okay, if you don't like the word numerology, how about the Jewish Gematria?      Or, why we say "Hi" to each other.

A rose by any other name.....Call it what you like...It is based on nothing scientific and is just unsupported myth and coincidence. 

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3 minutes ago, beecee said:

A rose by any other name.....Call it what you like...It is based on nothing scientific and is just unsupported myth and coincidence. 

Are you saying that the number value of Hebrew letters of alphabet is myth and coincidence?  

6 minutes ago, beecee said:

A rose by any other name.....Call it what you like...It is based on nothing scientific and is just unsupported myth and coincidence. 

https://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_One/Numeric_Values/numeric_values.html   This page shows very clearly the Hebrew alphabet and corresponding number values.     

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Just now, nymnpseudo said:

Are you saying that the number value of Hebrew letters of alphabet is myth and coincidence?  

I'm saying that numerology, like astrology is nothing more then myth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerology

"Numerology is any belief in the divine or mysticalrelationship between a number and one or more coinciding events.[2] It is also the study of the numerical value of the letters in words, names, and ideas. It is often associated with the paranormal, alongside astrology and similar divinatory arts.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And of course any supernatural, and/or paranormal scenarios is unsupported and unscientific. 

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11 minutes ago, beecee said:

I'm saying that numerology, like astrology is nothing more then myth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerology

"Numerology is any belief in the divine or mystical relationship between a number and one or more coinciding events.[2] It is also the study of the numerical value of the letters in words, names, and ideas. It is often associated with the paranormal, alongside astrology and similar divinatory arts.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And of course any supernatural, and/or paranormal scenarios is unsupported and unscientific. 

From your own post: "2] It is also the study of the numerical value of the letters in words, names, and ideas."    

Diminishing the appearance of the font does not diminish the fact.

Mystical:   "It may also refer to the attainment of insight in ultimate or hidden truths."     Quantum Physics can be seen to be mystical .. not magical, not paranormal, but certainly mystical according to the definition. 

Synonyms for Mystical include "hidden, mysterious, obscure."  Certainly quantum physics meets those requirements.  

Edited by nymnpseudo
upfont

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On 1/21/2019 at 12:35 AM, MarieR said:

 I know that many of you will think it's just numerology bullshit and discard it (and I agree) but I would appreciate getting some answers to my specific questions as well. Thank you everyone for your help. 

Individuals will see patterns in many things...clouds come to mind, the constellations are another. Mostly it is driven by agenda and what the mind wants to see to support that agenda. Other times it is simply coincidental, and sometimes just plain old delusional. Christian numerology,  like the bible, and other supernatural/paranormal scenarios are unscientific and irrational.

5 minutes ago, nymnpseudo said:

From your own post: "2] It is also the study of the numerical value of the letters in words, names, and ideas."      

If you check the OP, the reference is to christianity and the bible. Again, unscientific at best and this is afterall a science forum, even though we are in the religious subset, all claims, need to "run the gauntlet" so to speak, and  are governed by science and the scientific methodology.

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5 minutes ago, beecee said:

Individuals will see patterns in many things...clouds come to mind, the constellations are another. Mostly it is driven by agenda and what the mind wants to see to support that agenda. Other times it is simply coincidental, and sometimes just plain old delusional. Christian numerology,  like the bible, and other supernatural/paranormal scenarios are unscientific and irrational.

If you check the OP, the reference is to christianity and the bible. Again, unscientific at best and this is afterall a science forum, even though we are in the religious subset, all claims, need to "run the gauntlet" so to speak, and  are governed by science and the scientific methodology.

BeeCee .. Numerology is numerology .. you ignore specific clear english definition to stick to your opinion that "numerology" as you understand it is magic.  We've clearly shown you that it's not magic, that it is very practical, a system of communication as enhancing to the mind as is learning two languages, that being VERY clearly proven by science to advance intellect.   If you cannot accept simple english definitions of words, HOW are you going to accept mathematical (there are those numbers again) equations.  Einstein saw nothing wrong with the value of numbers, why should you?

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A prime example of the nonsense that Christian Numerology promotes is amply illustrated in the prediction/s of the end of days and other such elements of fear. 

https://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/2018/april/apparently-end-of-world-is-set-to-happen-again.html

It's Time to End the Stupid about the End Times: Debunking Christian Numerology:

Self-proclaimed Christian numerologist David Meade is at it again. This time, though, he’s saying that the world is going to end on April 23rd.

It’s on the front page of the USAToday and the Drudge Report right now.

Worse yet, he’s now brought international policy issues into the discussion (another subject area for which he has no academic credentials, like his “Christian numerology”). He’s now predictingthat a nuclear conflict will also occur this month.

But before you panic and make an emergency trip to the grocery store or run to break out that apocalyptic survival gear, know that this isn’t Meade’s first rodeo. He’s predicted that the world would end not once, but twice already this year. Again, before getting into a tizzy and starting to think that maybe this could finally be the real deal, I want you to notice something: we’re all still here.

2 minutes ago, nymnpseudo said:

BeeCee .. Numerology is numerology .. you ignore specific clear english definition to stick to your opinion that "numerology" as you understand it is magic.  We've clearly shown you that it's not magic, that it is very practical, a system of communication as enhancing to the mind as is learning two languages, that being VERY clearly proven by science to advance intellect.   If you cannot accept simple english definitions of words, HOW are you going to accept mathematical (there are those numbers again) equations.  Einstein saw nothing wrong with the value of numbers, why should you?

Again, perhaps you need to refer to the OP, and perhaps stay on track and the discussion/refutation of the nonsense that Christian Numerology often portrays.

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Further, the OP is not strictly about Christian anything.

I'd like some help on how to debunk a numerology on the Bible.    .....   .....   Genesis 1.1 and John 1.1 are mathematically linked as well as theologically .... ...."

It is about the bible, old and new testaments, from the beginning.   It becomes clear through discovery that the author of the post does not understand the basics of numerology or the gematria (to which he/she refers.)   He/she assumes it to be magic .. when it is language pure and simple.  

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